Narad: Today is the 15thday of January 2015 we are honored to have
Santosh back with us.
The last interview with Santosh was so beautiful people have passed the DVD
around and many many have watched it as she spoke about her life. But today we
are going to cover different areas. For example, Santosh many people today are
seeking. They don't know about Mother and Sri Aurobindo but they are
seeking, they don't want the old life. What do you recommend for these young
people who are seeking for something higher for something truer?
Santosh: “When we come to Mother and Sri Aurobindo any one of us, naturally some
urge within which is inspiring them, which is guiding them which is urging them
to come here isn't it? Otherwise no one can come. When one doesn't have the
aptitude for this life, no one can turn up. The world is big enough for them to
live. But when we come here we come with a certain aspiration within. We will
know it clearly or we may not, we may know it vaguely. And when we enter this
atmosphere, when we enter Pondicherry, when we feel that the atmosphere then we
see our deities Mother and Sri Aurobindo there is some commotion inside, some
awakening inside. Which pushes them always and knowingly or unknowingly even at
the time of Mother also when she used to instill that aspiration in us through
her eyes by merely looking at us, even then some people may feel it very
clearly, they may decide their future very clearly, but some are vague enough
but still pulled, they feel pulled. Something from within is pulling them to
join the ashram. So they wish to stay here then. Mother used to, she already saw,
still more she examines them that way inside and seeing our possibilities even,
even though we may not be very clear about our own selves, but she sees, she
used to see possibilities, potentialities and accordingly she used to grant us
permission to stay here or not. So that way I think most of us are here. Now it
depends during our stay here, it may be lifelong, it may be for some years,
whether we have utilized, or whether we have developed our inner soul up to that
level, that level which we are expected or which we are told or we are just
again fallen back on the same brunt of the old life. That is a very, very
essential point for all of us. If we cannot progress, naturally we will lag
behind in everything and what does this progress mean? How to keep, this fire
burning within? For that Mother and Sri Aurobindo have given enough guidelines,
letters otherwise also in their writings. So I think it’s not such a difficult
thing if we are little conscious and try to imbibe that thing from their
literature, from their words, from our prayers and with their grace. They are
always there ready to help us. Always there I can say with confidence. It’s we
that we lack that confidence, that aspiration, that prayer, that fire and that
constant burning should be there. We are not to go astray in all those things
just for, once we are granted, our life mission is over. That is not the life
here. When you are granted admission, permission, real work starts then isn't
it? And for that, to keep that aspiration burning Mother and Sri Aurobindo both
of them said so many times, in so many letters; first an aspiration, first
prayer rather, aspiration is still another step. When we can’t know can’t decide
our future what to do, how to do, at least that much link we should have with
the Mother to ask her. To pray for our difficulties. In the beginning it may
just be repetition of words but ultimately it leads us with our soul and then it
becomes aspiration. Which Mother used to do with her eyes in a moment, we may
take some time, some months, some years whatever it is, it depends upon the
intensity of our prayer, our confidence our faith everything, but it comes,
nobody is empty handed. Whosoever stands before her? So I should say I was lucky
enough to have that opening from the very beginning from the Mother.
Narad: Now, from prayer to aspiration, then would you talk a bit about
Santosh: “Then after the aspiration when you love somebody when you aspire for
somebody when you have a yearning for anybody even humanly also what we do. When
we love somebody what do we feel? The first gesture of our being is to give
ourselves, isn't it? Whom we love, always in our thoughts we’ll be what best I
can give to my lover, to my beloved isn't it? Same way when that fire, has
burnt, when that yearning has come automatically that your being starts flowing
towards that and I should say that is the real surrender. In words we can say
you surrender everything to the Lord. When you pray you say, all this my being
and all that is yours very well, it has to be done but not only words, in
practice it comes when you really pine for that Lord. That burning fire within
should be there. So aspiration leads to surrender automatically. We don't have
to ask question to ourselves how to surrender? That is I should say an extreme
ultimate step. Before that again the same method we have to employ prayer. We
must feel, start feeling at least everything belongs to Lord, not me. My every
action, my every thought, my very word, my every relation, every connection
whatever I do from morning to night should be inspired by you and should be
offered to You that should be my gesture. First we can always pray but then it
comes automatically she doesn't care to listen our words she see the flowing of
the consciousness towards her. Which she is ready to accept every moment, every
moment she receives that.
Narad: And when problems come up, with others in one self?
Santosh: Problems of what type?
Narad: Disharmony, anger, desire, ego, we can go on and on....
Santosh: Yes, the method of dissolution for everything is the same. When we
approach Her, when we go to Her then we try to become one with her consciousness
and we enlarge our consciousness. Ego can go only, that is the last thing to go
but it reflects in everything. Whatever we do whatever we think isn't it?
Whatever relationship we have, that supremacy that I am something that is always
there. So to change this ego's, first of all we have to know whether we are
egoistic. We don't even realize. That is the main hurdle, we don't even realize,
we justify, go on justifying our actions, our thinking. So all this, things even
to remove anger, anger comes when? When things happen contrary to your ideas, to
your expectation we get angry, we get irritated isn't it? We are thinking of
doing the one thing in a particular way the person you are connected with in
work he may think otherwise or he may not do according to your instructions if
you are in-charge also. These are small little examples, but in life anger comes
when? When anything displeasing comes to you. You are irritated beyond
expectations. So the first thing will be, we should be always above our own
selves. We should not insist what we think, what we do, the way we think, the
way we do is all right others are wrong. When we have a general larger
understanding of our own selves as well as of the others anger won't come. You
won't react. You will be peaceful within as before, you will try to understand
the view point the stand of the other person. And then reconcile. If you find
still that you are right he is wrong or he may be wrong because that happens
nobody is perfect, then you can make harmonious understanding! But we should not
insist that is the point, that is the trouble with human nature, what I think is
alright, he should do this, No. You have expressed your view, let him think
over. If not at this moment, he may think the next moment that he is not right.
And if you don't insist, being a head of the department, I mean this situation
where you are leading, any situation not head of the department, even home,
anywhere. When you feel that nothing should be in this way, this the correct
way, but we don't, we shouldn't insist. First of all we should give little time
for him, for the other person to think, give him some space and with love. Try
to convince, if you have to convince him, with love that you also take care of
him, that you also understand him so that he can come around. And inwardly we
can always refer our difficulties to Mother.
Narad: Sri Aurobindo says that, first essential thing is peace.
Santosh: Yes, just in this previous context, just I’ll say. Sri Aurobindo has
very jokingly once said, that when I talk of surrender, the first thing people
surrender is their common sense. So that is, what real surrender is it's very
necessary for our lives.
Narad: How do you bring in the peace?
Santosh: Well, for me also this has been a great challenge till now. Although,
as in the last talk I told you about my experience, and to some extent that is
always in the background. Real peace comes, really with the inner contact. Then
we don't have to invoke also, as soon as she stands before you, you are in her
environment. She covers you with all that is hers and she has everything,
whatever we ask for, her mere presence her mere coming, it's so peaceful, so
blissful, the very memory of it is so very blissful that automatically it comes.
But in the present, in the day to day life, in the problems, when you are facing
all the times, so challenges, some difficulties, some personal problem to solve,
even then this stage of our consciousness should be always to stand back. That
is the first fundamental rule of spiritual life for Mother and Sri Aurobindo
also and for Gita every Shastra, scripture will say. That to detach yourself is
the first necessity. Now how to stand back? And that should become a natural
state of your consciousness then only you can remain peaceful. Peaceful doesn't
mean when we sit for meditation close our eyes and just we remember for sometime
we are very peaceful, rest of the time we are all the time agitated. That is not
peace. Real peace comes when we know that this outer self is not I. In Gita it's
very beautifully said and this I have experienced by Mother's grace. Then you
need not do meditation even, it comes automatically. You face any difficulty,
very automatically, just stay behind don't get involved with the situation. And
then whatever comes will bring with it solutions, because you are seeing from
another level and that solves everything and we remain peaceful. But when we are
involved, when we are attached, may be persons, may be situations, may be our
environments, then we immediately those vibrations. Person is very agitated, he
is angry with you, he has abused you, you also get irritated isn't it? You can
also retort in the same way. First reaction will be that, mostly or if you are
sensible enough to control yourself you may not utter the same abuses but you
will feel hurt.
Santosh: So in that case if you are aloof then nothing touches you and that
aloofness itself pacifies all that agitation, anger everything to the person
also, to you also.
Narad: To the person also …
Santosh: Yes, but for that we shouldn't say from the mouth I am are very
peaceful but inside you are bubbling. That is not peace that won't have
Narad: How did you come to have the peace? You said it was a long journey, till
you developed the peace. Because of the nature?
Santosh: And still now also I feel, I fail at times, it's not that I am always
in that state. I do feel many times.
Narad: But, you had spoken to me about experiences, and said they don't take us
very far unless we translate them into everyday life.
Santosh: That is true. Both the things are helping. Both the things are means to
advance without experience you may not have the firm faith, because the thing
you have seen you have experienced yourself. You have naturally more faith in
that than any sayings, any words of anyone isn't it? So experiences help that
way when you have personal experiences, but if we are just feeling proud of it,
" Oh I am having so many beautiful experiences I must be something within" then
everything is gone, no use. It has made you only egoistic isn't it?
Santosh: So for that what I have seen, what I have experienced that experience
should lead me, should tell me, that you have to advance still further. It’s not
that you are something. By the Grace you are getting it so invoke that Grace
that I may go still further, still come nearer to you. And experiences don’t
come to everybody that is also true. By sadhana some people may have that inner
opening. Some people have as in my case, I should say, it was god given gift
from the very childhood. But it never made me mad that I am something. I used to
see my question papers before my eyes before the examination. But those things
didn't make me mad or make my head off, that I am something. I could tell the
events before hand and that was not my doing something no. I should say it was a
god given gift. But I developed it, developed it in the sense that I took it in
a very light way, took it as a milestone for my sadhana and perceived it like
that and certain things god has given me in a very natural way. The opening to
the Mother, first the remembrance of the Mother. There was some urge without
seeing her, I must go there, I must see her that was my only aim while staying
outside. So probably all these experiences they were helping me.
Narad: Preparing you
Santosh: Preparing me and brought me to the true path. And because I was a
little open I was ready. I was aspiring that way, Mother also didn't find any
difficulty to open, go on opening from within. So I say both things are helpful.
But most of us we don't have experiences that we should not be depressed, but
"oh that person is having so much, I don't have, even after so many years I
don't see anything, I don't find anything, I don't feel anything!” You may get
depressed when we hear somebody else's experiences, after experiences, you may
feel depressed. I didn't get anything after fifty years.
Narad: After how many years
Santosh: Fifty years even I didn't get anything. I didn't feel like that. But
that is not the criteria. With the experiences we have to grow. Mother and Sri
Aurobindo's yoga is we have to grow in consciousness, we have to change
the consciousness and we have to establish god, establish that consciousness in
us and we have to become that consciousness, we have to become so large as they
are. Then every difficulty dissolves, it is our petty little closed rooms which
we are living in that is disturbing us all through our lives. So experience
this, doesn't matter, do not matter at all. They will come by their own whenever
time comes, whenever god sees for you to be all proper. We are not to pine
for experiences but when they come most welcome. When we take a more confident
step towards the goal, towards our future.
Narad: You once told me, Mother is bearing all
Santosh: Yes. To say it in words you may not believe it. Mother is bearing all,
she is doing all, she is looking after us all in every way. We are birds, do you
think it will help you, it will influence you, unless you have that experience.
When you are in certain difficulty, difficult position, difficult situation. And
when she comes all of a sudden in a most unexpected way then you realize “Oh,
how she is with us”. But this thing becomes very natural when we are one with
her, so always in sadhana there are two steps. First, it may be a hearing, it
may be reading, it may be remembering, it may be prayer whatever it is
ultimately we have to be one with her. And to be one with her is psychic soul.
That is a mirror within ourselves which shows our real self as well as the
deities seated within. And then we feel at every step of life, every moment I
can say, it’s not I who do anything, not this I, which I call myself as I, no.
It's not I that does anything. We can see always Mother is doing everything, Lord
is doing everything, god is doing everything whatever you may think. Only then
we have the psychic experience, that opening. More and more psychic governs our
outer life the more and more we are in that state. And for that even our saints,
rishis everybody they have said, sahadisamadhibhali, the spontaneous
trance. You are always somewhere else, because you are seeing your beloved
before your eyes. And then you are full of her thoughts in our consciousness, in
our doings, in our actions, when we feel her everywhere there is no area which
is left of her without Mother without Lord without God. Then it is adept very
very natural and constant samadhi. So she bears all, when we see with our eyes,
when we feel with our experience working her. Till then we have to believe what
they have said, what we have read and we have to keep that faith at least. That
one day we have to realize it, that should be our prayer I should say, our
aspiration and she grants it, she is for that what for else she has come here in
Narad: Dealing with pain, dealing with pain. People, so many people are in pain.
Santosh: Physical pain or
Narad: Yes, let’s talk about physical first, physical pain first.
Santosh: I also suffered, I am suffering already. It’s difficult for you to sit
down, you can take stool, take that stool, it will be afterwards very painful for
you. Take this stool, sit down. I can't sit down, on the floor. He is more
Narad: How do you work on your pain?
Santosh: Well, both ways physical has to be treated physically also medically
also. It is not that with our consciousness, we don't have that much of mastery.
We are not all the time 24 hours with the God. There are lapses there are
moments when we are separated.
Santosh: You keep one or two more questions on that. I don't know her name. Keep
questions also over that. So for physical, again the same thing, the process of
prayer that also should continue, physically, medically also we have to
treat. And I didn't really say and feel god has given us machine with which we
work all the time, but we know nothing about its parts. When it gets stuck up we
don't know how to do. We can do this repair isn't it? But not with the body. We
don't know what is happening we rush to doctor who knows and that he also may
not know the whole thing. It goes on in the physical like that. And we also go
stumbling, suffering and may lessen it sometimes little less of suffering little
less of pain with all these aids we take. But more and more we should
be conscious as we are conscious in our consciousness with other things, with
our anger, with our nature, with our character, with our mental thinking. As we
are going on sorting things here, offering things here, enlarging ourselves in
every way trying to do it in our feeling, in our emotions, as we are sublimating
ourselves. Physically also we should try to apart from all this, physical helps.
There also what I found most effective way of coming out of pain is to detach
yourself. Although it is difficult not always happens, but it helps. And a will
power. Will power in such a way that body has to reject it, it shouldn't accept
it. Generally what we say ohhhishh, it has to come, it will come, can't help it
you have to suffer; no this is not our yogic attitude, you have to fight. Fight
with a will, if somebody stands before us terrorizing us, wants to fight, then
should we run away or should we give our face too, alright you slap, we should
all be able to slap. And that comes from inner will power, detach yourself call
the Lord, rest he will do. You may not find an immediate effect but the next
moment you may find, oh everything is gone. But it's not so very practical for
us because we are very much tied down with the physical. But it’s not that ways
are not there, how much we succeed depends upon us. I also cannot boast.
Although I have gone through so much of physical suffering as I told you last
Santosh: But they have passed like nightmares, really I didn't feel that part of
suffering, in proportion they came the all the major operations not that much of
suffering but it could have been. They could have been fatal also.
Narad: Yeah, yeah yes. Would you speak a little on humility and gratitude?
Santosh: Humility doesn't come merely by effacing yourself in words when we say
to somebody, "Oh this is your grace, this is your doing, I am nothing" you just
meek, you just show yourself as you feel you are nothing and you can do nothing
or that is not humility. You may not boast what we are doing and when don't
boast it doesn't mean we are humble. Inside we may still be liking "people should
admire me, people should know that I am something, isn't it? I have achieved
something" If somebody behaves in a very un casual way or abnormal way with you,
then see yourself how you react? So that is not the real humility, outside you
may talk "Oh aap to bahut, unhomebahut you are so great" So humble
person, first of all he doesn't pronounce that I am so and so I am such and
such, nothing. Second this is, because he has realized himself within himself,
that it's not I who is doing anything actually, in my own life also, there is
someone else who is over me, who is doing everything. So how he be egoistic? How
can he be arrogant? How can he boast? Before his eyes he is feeling everything
in his heart of hearts he is feeling everything, it's not I that who is moving
my life, who is doing the actions, there is someone else. So all the credit goes
to him. I am living because of him, I am surviving because of him, I am doing
things because of him. Real humility comes then. It is alright for our conduct,
for our day to day life, we shouldn't be arrogant, we shouldn't be so many
things are there, little, little things, they are also necessary. We should not
confront anybody with everything that is not how practical life is lived. But
the person who is really in contact within, he will never fail. He is the true
humble person he won't announce also that I am humble. The very figure, the very
personality, the very utterances, the very face, the very influence of the
personality when he sits with you he will emanate. That is real humility that is
real peace. When your find peace in somebody's presence, maybe saint, maybe a
sadhu, maybe a saint anybody. Why do we feel peace in their presence? They don't
utter any word, maximum they will do, they will put their hand on you, you will
pass them, you will sit near them and then you find peace that emanates from the
being, that's what we are to be everyone of us. And gratitude also I should say
this is a moment to moment. Our deepest most sublime feelings offered to the
divine. We always say that when somebody does something for you, you must feel
grateful, you will write also like that, somebody has done something we will
reply and I am very grateful to you that is one way. In inter dealings we are
and we should be that much at least we should have in our normal day to day
life, we should have that much of gratefulness. Because gratefulness always,
it’s not only good for the person or for your inter relations but it brings joy
to you. All of you must have felt, gratefulness brings real joy in life. And
that joy, that goodness again brings more goodness to you, that's the beauty.
Santosh: And when we love the divine automatically, we are with every breath you
are constantly offering yourself with gratefulness. It is not that Mother has
done something I must write, I must tell her that you have done so much for me
and I am grateful, she doesn't expect that.
Narad: There is a line in Savitri "A prayer upon his lips and the great name".
Taking the Mother's name can you speak about that? The necessity of taking her
Santosh: Same thing, when she is with you every time, in every breath, so only
that will come. And that makes effective, people say I also pray but I don't get
that response what I prayed for. Everybody, every great soul will say, you pray,
you pray, Nama japa, everybody will say. Do we realize what does it mean?
It is not verbal. You may not utter also, but it is something within that goes
constantly incessantly. That japa is japa.
Santosh: And that even God cannot ignore. In Mahabharata, an episode is there.
Krishna is sitting, his wife Rukmini is pressing his feet. Some Bhakta, some
devotee is remembering him earnestly for help. It was Draupadi. When the garment
was being opened. So she was remembering him earnestly and Krishna used to sit
up and then lie down, used to sit up and then lie down. Then Rukmini asked him
what are you doing? Ultimately after doing so many times this gesture he left
immediately. Then Rukmini asked what was the mischief behind your, this action?
He said yes, Draupadi was calling me, but till then half mindedly, halfheartedly.
She was expecting I’ll call Yudhishtira, I'll call Nakul, I'll call Sahadev he
will help me, he will come he will do this, he will do that and sometimes in
between she was remembering me also. But when she was disappointed from every
side and she called me alone then I could not stay. So that is our condition all
of us. We say we call him, but do we call full heartedly? We can ask ourselves.
More and more this is the path, infinite path we have to march on so many things
to establish in ourselves, this is in infinite path that we must go on, but the
proper life the proper guidelines should be there we should have, and that also
ultimately it comes from within.
Narad: And within we know it's the only path to take for us.
Santosh: Yes it eludes, because we are not accustomed to it.
Narad: Do you have any questions for Santosh?
Narad: Alexei is asking about psychological pain.
Santosh: Means again of the relations you mean, of the contact with the
situations persons or in the work, or your inner difficulties you are asking?
Inner difficulties. What type of…
Santosh: That happens, that happens and it’s a very sad thing that some hidden,
some dormant things come up and they are led away by that. It's a very sad
thing, it happens at times not very common but it happens. And for that
well, Mother's and Sri Aurobindo's physical presence was a very solid support
for it because they knew the future, they knew the destiny, they knew the
potentiality and they knew the way to bring that soul back. Sometimes they
themselves used to send the person out. But sometimes you be out have
the experience but they used to go on constantly working on that. They used to
work on it. So ultimately they marked up, maybe 1 year 2 year 3 year whatever it
is they used to come. So that is sometimes it is out of individual control I
should say. And person has to be very, very vigilant about himself from
the beginning and always pray in the right direction. The things which we cannot
sort out ourselves we cannot correct ourselves we should always refer to her she
will take care of. In the end, it is time already no?
Narad: Yes, go ahead we can go on a little.
Santosh: Apart from all that, all the other things which you have asked about
the nature, anger, and this jealousy whatever it is, humility and everything.
One main hurdle for most of us probably for every one of us is sex, isn't it?
Santosh: Because it leaves nobody. And you cannot be an impostor in this life,
in this yogic life and things are not allowed in this life. So what to do? With
the age, with everybody it comes. Some part of our life is eaten up by this
unhealthy, this thing.
Narad: It's very true, very true
Santosh: Without it also nobody says, at least in the west its very natural
thing, they take it in a very natural way but in our Indian society it is still
out of life, of spiritual life they want to keep it out. But can it remain out
like that only? By telling. It will attack anybody and it does attack it comes
in life, as soon as you grow young this thing shows her face what to do?
So Mother has tried so many things at least she has established in
the consciousness that we could come out little further little more, one step
more higher, we don't have that particular feeling that indecency, or that
indulgence of that thing. But it comes in many ways, emotionally it may come. We
will feel attached to the opposite sex, attracted. For some years it may go on
like any other, with intensity and intimacy. But ultimately it may drop off if
you are sincere to your path. But still, I am telling you my own experience
don't think that I am somebody. When I came, I was so young at the age of 20.
And because as I told you from the childhood I had this aptitude for spiritual
life. When I came here I used to see young children, young boys and girls moving
about freely and having friendship and all that. So one question used to be in
my mind, living under the Mother's light and guidance and everything presence.
How can they love human beings like that? Is Mother not enough? How can they
divide that love among themselves? What is the need, why do you feel that need?
They don't get love from the Mother? And, then I was asking her in my prayers in
my meditations. If this weakness has to occur in every life what is the idea?
Can't we conquer it in any life and so that we are free in the next life? No
way? Because really it was disgusting for me at that age. When we were children
and all that, from the very beginning I used to have that same Supermind's
children will be like that, that idea was like that in the very beginning. So it
was a real shocking experience for me why living in the Mother they feel the
necessity of loving each other. Can any human being be a perfect being? Why
should I get attracted? I can have friendship; I can have a love that is very
very, so to say pure sublime thing that you feel with some you are congenial
with others you are not that is very natural. But it is not that you are tied
down. This sex relation makes you helpless absolutely. And then so many things
come, all the jealousy all that everything comes with that. Then I asked her,
"At least make me free that is what I want to pray to you." I should, what we
say in Hindi, I should make you, I should feel you, I should think of you in
every way. Maybe a husband, maybe a friend, maybe a father, maybe a brother, in
all relations I may see you not anyone else. That will solve the problem.
Narad: Mother says it in her prayers and meditations, to see only you.
Santosh: And then when I was sitting near samadhi one day after my dining room's
work. Say I am sitting here; she came, with two garlands in her hand. In our
Indian marriages at the time of marriage, husband that boy also brings and girl
also has one garland and they put on each other so that they are now husband
wife. In west whatever your ways are. She came with two garlands she put in my
neck and I put in her neck. What was an experience to feel god as
your everything, your husband and everything. And she has made it so beautifully
explained to me made me realize and made me, she printed in my heart the
relation with her. And I was free really from that nuisance. So we have to go a
very long way all of us and still go on perfecting because it is an endless
path. But I am sorry to share this so very personal thing with you, I never told
Narad: May we ask you to come again
Santosh: For what, there is nothing else
Narad: I am sure there is so much more to speak about Sri Aurobindo also.
Santosh: When I translate some practical life, everything is beautiful that's
what I can say.
Narad: Thank you.