Vasanti: Then by the time we returned from Sri Lanka, Murugesu had arranges of course a thousand mile tour of Sri Lanka which we did, different spiritual centers in whole of the island. Not Sri Aurobindo's but whatever the centers they all wanted. So we had a tour he arranged a special van and we did a thousand mile tour of Sri Lanka. After that we came back that visit also was not long may be a fortnight or so. When we came back many invitations from the west were waiting. Because we had the passport by the way we didn't have to make any effort to get the passport the governor at that time was Chedi Lal who had already got Madhav to address some meetings at the Governor's house, in his house on spiritual subjects. So he called one of his men and said, get all the Visa, passport and everything for Mr. Pandit. I don't want him to go and sit there in that office waiting. So they went and got it and for me to accompany I was taken as his secretary. A man could be accompanied by his secretary you see, we had to give the reason otherwise government wouldn't allow. So as his secretary I was given that, so we didn't know how much effort went into getting of a passport and a visa to any particular foreign country. everything was done by the government people at the governors behest. We only packed a few things but immediately we didn't go the itinerary had to be planned. Madhav said we have already gone out twice and America is a very large country, and so many invitations have come from the west, from the east and from the north and travelling itself would take time. That means absence for a longer time from the ashram. So he just kept quiet and then the invitation came from Baroda. We had not yet gone to any Indian center, the Baroda center was located in the very house where Sri Aurobindo had lived for many years. It was the house of noble man and there Sri Aurobindo was lodged when he arrived in Baroda and entered the state government's service, the maharaja had engaged him London, when he was in London maharaja had met him and he had engaged him on the spot. Sri Aurobindo was 21 years old; he was received very well in Baroda and lodged immediately. So he was in the house of that noble man who liked Sri Aurobindo so much he kept him in his house as a guest for a number of years. I have seen that house where, perhaps you have been there Baroda, 

Narad: Yes. 

Vasanti: That swing on which he had sat the room of silence and all that. So when we went the relics had not been installed they had been received but they were in a special place, kept there, awaiting the construction of a proper shrine for it. So Madhav was hesitating so they asked, they were coming here for darshan, they said, do you intend going only to foreign countries? You must not forget your own countries and your own centers. And there was an all Gujarat conference to take place in Baroda. Gujarat there were many centers and Baroda was the chief center the largest and the chief center so they said you must come and be this chief speaker, chief guest. So Madhav had to say yes, how could he neglect such a center? So we went there by plane, that's another story, the visit to Gujarat that was the only Indian center we went to before going to America. Then you knew Tat Sat, the young man called Tat Sat. He took it upon himself to arrange the itinerary. Earlier, Surendra Mohan Ghosh who was the vice president of World Union Journal had asked Madhav if we could go on tour on a world tour and the Indian government would arrange everything and all lodging, everything at government expense. And they would, the embassies in each country would arrange the meetings. Madhav had not planned to to go at that time so he declined, he didn't go. Now a young man of 26 sent Madhav's bio data and published books and all that to different universities but before that the centers that already existed, like Jyotipriya's and some others. Our friends were already there and Eleanor Montgomery, in New York she was a good friend. And about her I have to say something interesting. I saw my first interview I have not mentioned Eleanor there but there is something very interesting to tell you about what Mother said to her you know. So Eleanor Montgomery from the East, Jyotipriya from the west and some other things and not only that the Ramakrishna mission people, in whichever country Madhav visited they we very welcoming to him because they used to send him books for review in their journals. They admired his reviews very much, the spiritual books and some of the swamis that he knew as editors of the journals were heads of certain center in America like the Vedanta society in Los Angeles also. Then Chicago so they invited Madhav to speak at Vivekananda temple. So, Swami Satchitanada for that integral yoga center he used to visit the ashram every year and he used to meet Madhav, so they also invited Madhav. He received invitation from other spiritual centers plus some universities where some of our people were working as professors and so they wanted these universities to be visited. So all these letters were put together, so that we wouldn't have to go back and forth. Tat Sat arranged from one part when we go, on the way we would stop for some days, speak at a university. Then move on and Stan arranged a large van, he tore of all the seats, Stan was also in his early twenties, he bought a van and put two gorgeous very comfortable arm chairs, actually four arm chairs, we were a part of four, Stan, TatSat, Barbie, 

Narad: Oh Barbie also.

Vasanti: Because Barbie had become special friend of Tat Sat you see, so Barbie. And we were new to everything so three young Americans would be with us because we would know nothing about it even in India we hadn't visited the big cities. Madhav had studied in Bombay but see Bombay was completely changed by the time we went abroad. So Stan worked out the itinerary and that is how it happened but there was still time for it and we were preparing for it. So our Singapore friend said we had predicted hadn't we that you'd be going to America, now it's coming sooner than expected. This is how we started. Now this slight digression this Eleanor Montgomery.

Narad: Yes, I knew her very well.

Vasanti: Yes, very well. Because you were in New York. And she became a great friend of Madhav when she came here and she stayed in Golconde and she would often sit there in Madhav's office and have some talks with him. And then she shared this little bit after the final interview she had with Mother before going back to the United States. She was feeling a little low because she was going. She had loved being here, she had made so many friends here, she loved being in Golconde and Mother was very very sweet to her. So she came and sat in the chair next to Madhav's, you know. Next to Madhav there was a chair and then she said, I am going back. It seems then she told Madhav that she had told Mother and Mother said something about the spiritual things and all that and the developments. Then she said, But Mother your ashram is here and I'll be in New York, I'll have to go very far. Then Mother looked at her quizzically and she said, you know something the whole world is my ashram. What a terrific statement. She says to Eleanor, you know something, the whole world is my ashram. This I heard her say with my own ears. See the Divine does not come to Earth only for one community and one ashram. The Divine comes for the whole world for all humanity. And this is how she made Eleanor feel that Eleanor would be doing Mother's work even in New York. Mother fully expected her to do Sri Aurobindo's and Mother's work. Help in it you see. She was one of the pioneers there in New York. The whole world is my ashram. It just stuck in my memory like that. I saw what Mother felt for all her children in the world. So I said to myself, Mother I never wanted to be anywhere outside the ashram even going out for a short while was difficult. Even to Singapore and Sri Lanka, devotees and all were there but I kept missing the ashram. So America still further I don't know what you expect me to do in this. I don't think I'll feel comfortable anywhere. Then this sentence came to my mind, the whole world is my ashram. If Mother felt that, then maybe she wouldn't think that I was infringing any kind of law or anything like that being an ashramite. But still I was not enthusiastic about it that I admit because I was very attached to this place you see. I wasn't doing anything. But there was another that I remember having in the playground, when Mother was there meditating, then suddenly I felt, no this was in the ashram main building itself. That experience was different that I'll talk of it some other time. What happened was this, I was waiting to go to Mother it was on the first floor. She used to live on the first floor and at that time, new room had been built she used to go up only to rest and sleep. Afterwards she would spend the rest of the time on the first floor and people met her there on the first floor

 Narad: Where her cot was and Sri Aurobindo's chair.

Vasanti: No that is different; there is a room that you pass in order to go to the top room. There is a couch there near the door opening on to the terrace and the little staircase to go to. 

Narad: Yes , yes. 

Vasanti: She used to see. There is one chair there, a narrow chair which is on the way, she used to sit there in the afternoons and meet Amrita, Counouma and Madhav there. They used to sit around her. There is a narrow chair there, you pass it and you go to the couch.

Narad: Yeah , it has a photo on it now, the chair.

Vasanti: Yes, she used to sit there. And they used to sit around her and some other time she would be sitting that side and then they see people. So that was her room actually, she lived there but it was open to everyone you see, that's the reason she made afterwards a separate room to herself which everyone couldn't use as a passage or whatever. Well, I was waiting to go upstairs that was after she went to the top room. I was waiting in that middle room, on the first floor, waiting to be called you see. Champaklal or Sudha would be calling me, not only me there may have been a few people I don't remember because when I waited for Mother at that time I used to be oblivious to everything else. So as I was sitting there I suddenly saw myself sitting there and all around me there are those walls of the ashram you know, four walls, because on all four sides the walls are there and the street outside. Those walls suddenly fell and I was simply exposed to the open space, to the world. I said, what's the matter. The walls on all four sides had just fallen and I was just sitting there like a child exposed to the whole world before me. I said, what's the significance of this; I am exposed to the whole world. The walls have fallen and there I am. This I remembered when I was about to go to America. The walls had fallen and I was just going out. I wasn't afraid or anything like that, but it was something peculiar, how that could happen it wasn't that the ashram was not there, it didn't have any bad feeling but it was just that I was exposed to the whole world that was the feeling, the feeling of being a child playing in Mother's garden and walls falling and completely exposed to the world. And I was afterwards completely exposed to the world Europe and America.

Narad: Yes.

Vasanti: Yes, so many visits. For the next ten years I was touring travelling almost continuously and even afterwards, after stopping going to America for the next two years we still were visiting Europe. 

Narad: So what year did you go to America?

Vasanti: 77. Because 76 Sri Lanka and Baroda because they said you have to come Indian center no, so Baroda. 77 we went to America. 

Narad: Beginning on the east coast. 

Vasanti: Yes, because Barbie's mother was there. Of course Rutledge Tompkins told Madhav you better start from California because now the climate, they are snow bound these things and you are not used to it. If you start from the west coast of America and travel to the east coast it would be easier for you. But Tat Sat was adamant, he said all the itinerary has been fixed we have to start from the east coast, from Barbie's mother lived, little away from New York airport I think it was about one and a half to two hours journey, where she lived. Maybe she lived, I forget the name, I have the itinerary. WE had to go there. And as for Madhav he had no idea how cold it would be and how we would. He said yes it's alright we'll bear cold or whatever. The itinerary had been planned the universities and all they had given their dates. They like to give much in advance because they make the itinerary a year in advance or at least so many months in advance nothing could be changed. Madhav said, it's ok. You see he was game for everything he could endure a lot and he said yes. And as for me what did I know. I had lots of relations living in the west of my own age now they are old. That generation also, there were cousins and Aunts and others, living in different places whom I was not going to visit because I didn't know them and besides my program was fixed I didn't have even single day in my hand to have any private programs. So I said, it was ok. We can buy the warm clothes there, that's what Tat Sat said. But what we didn't know that our plane couldn't land in New York. So it was at the airport, so we were circling over, Philadelphia perhaps, Philadelphia is it just to the south.

Narad: Yes, New York, Philadelphia, Washington.

Vasanti: Philadelphia we were there and so on. But finally we went back to New York and after a delay there we landed there. Well our tour started from there. Of course Eleanor met Madhav. She expressed her happiness in seeing Madhav in America. You are just the man I wanted to see here, just the man. And I have got everything fixed if you are interested, everything fixed for you. She was sure that Madhav would like whatever she had fixed for him. Her plan was, she had already spoken to the government people and then spoken to the Indian embassy and some kind of a center connected with that. They would help him to run and he would be able to stay in the United States without any trouble.

Narad: This was Eleanor.

Vasanti: This is just like Eleanor she commanded so many things, commanded so many things and she had decided that Madhav would come and now settle in America, in New York because she like the idea of that you know. So she was very disappointed when Madhav said that I have come for three months visit I have to be back in the ashram. I had not thought of settling in America he said. Oh she tried to pursue it and she was very disappointed you were just the man needed by us here. Well anyway that is just by the way. Then we followed the itinerary, most of the people in the audiences were those whom we had already met in the ashram. They had heard of us, itinerary had been sent to them because they had asked whether Madhav would be in that area. So they were many universities and also other spiritual centers and everywhere our own people had settled. The devotees had settled all over the United States, so they all came to meet us. Of course when they came to meet us we felt ourselves at home because it was seeing them in the ashram. They made it a little easier for us you know. And Jyotipriya of course I had known her from day one of her visit here in 47. 

Narad: In 47 she came from Benares.

Vasanti: Yes. Because I was at that time, I had just settled down here in August and I think Jyotipriya must have come November or something like that. That's what Mandakini told me. And then, I at that time was very friendly with a girl who was doing her MA in philosophy in Benares Hindu University and she was Aravinda Basu's pupil. So Aravinda Basu arranged for Judith Tiberk's visit to the ashram and he also wrote to his pupil to look after because the pupil was at Golconde and Jyotipriya was to stay at Golconde. Because Jyotipriya was you know new to this ashram so he thought his pupil would be you know be at hand to help her and all that. Now that girl had become very friendly with me. So we used to go for meditations together and all that. I had not yet become officially an ashramite because I was underage. They didn't want to accept me officially as an ashramite until I had turned at least 18. So I was there waiting to be accepted, in the mean time I was treated like an ashramite but I wasn't given any room in the ashram. I had to have private lodging you know. So I became very friendly with these visitors we went everywhere together she brought Jyotipriya into my life. And she was very impressed with Jyotipriya, so many degrees so scholarly and now she has come to do further research and other things at Benares Hindu University. So we became close friends. Somehow Jyotipriya took to me and we became very close friends, I still remember the tips she gave me and one or two things that she told me they seems a little strange to me because I was never going to America you know. She said, when you are in America, you don't ever do this or that something like that she told. And I said to myself I have come here to join the ashram how will I be in America. And Jyotipriya she just told me what are the do's and don’ts and some of the things that are done there and what she had experienced, she was just sharing that with me, a young girl should know these things she felt. All those things I remember when I finally went to America in my forties.

Narad: But she wasn't much older than you Jyotipriya. How much older than you was she?

Vasanti: I was born in 1930. 

Narad: And she? 

Vasanti: She was older at that time, I think she was in her forties. 

Narad: Oh was she!

Vasanti: Because she had already done lots of things. She was not a young student but she got the chance to come for this thing, she already had so many degrees. And she was teaching at so many places, she was not a young student but she was not old you know. She was in early middle age. I was also in early middle age when I went to America. I was not young. So this is what she told me, never do this when you are there. Guidelines for a young girl because I wouldn't know anything of that society you see, I wouldn't know. She was so free with me and shared so many things with me and I imbibed it all. This Eleanor also used to say so many things to be, because when Madhav was busy she would find me sitting there doing some work and she would engage me in conversation. She was very friendly I liked her very much indeed. Oh I found her very elegant, very stylish, oooh very stylish. Well anyway we knew some friends so it was alright; they made us feel at home. Madhav felt it worthwhile because many new people came also wanting to have the teaching. Now mother had told him, I don't know whether I have told you in the first interview I have not told you. Mother had told him, when he was in World Union, AB Patel, Jay Holmes Smith and others they asked Madhav to lend his support to World Union because Sri Aurobindo believed in the unity of Humanity and all that. So at that time Mother said to Madhav. When you speak to other audiences, because on the World Union platform he had to speak to people who were not disciples who might not even be interested in matters of the spirit. But he had to you know have some kind of a meaningful interchange with. She said, when you speak to them first talk only about the principles and the ideas of Sri Aurobindo in philosophy or in the spheres of social development or world unity, just talk of those and after they have heard you if they want to know, if they are impressed and if they want to know from whom you learnt it, then only you can speak about us. And this is exactly what happened, at some of the meeting there, where people were not disciples and not even interested in spiritual matters but because he was writing for the World Union, people had heard of him worldwide contacts of World Union were there. On World Union platforms also he spoke there in different places. There he first spoke only of the philosophy, the social philosophy of Sri Aurobindo and there was pin drop silence. There were other people there Rudolph Steiner's people and other people were there, it was a kind of symposium in one place. And different people presented their view points and then Madhav was called to present his view point. And when he spoke there was simply pin drop silence and after when his speech was over the whole audience came like that, just rose from their seats and came towards him and surrounded him and they asked him, we have known before all that you have said here but we have not heard it presented in this manner, this harmonious and grounded way of approach. Everything was put in everything was getting its due place, though we knew all these things we have never heard it presented in this manner. Who was you teacher? And then two separate evenings they fixed for one talk on Sri Aurobindo and the other one talk on the Mother.

Narad: This was in Chicago?

Vasanti: Chicago, and the venue was, the quarters of the theosophical society. But the platform was open to different people, they had invited different people, they served as an interaction between faiths, different approaches. And they were all experts, Madhav had not expected such a reception but you see it all depends upon whether the Mother is present when you are doing this. When Mother is there she is influencing those people and they don't realize what is drawing them here and some of them have become lifelong friends. The impact of the first meeting was such that they have kept up contact and even to this day after Madhav has passed away those who have survived are in touch with us, with our group. It was a lasting impact. 

Narad: So you went from New York to Chicago.

Vasanti: Not immediately from New York, from New York not to Chicago that came, the mid west came later. It is in mid-west isn't that so. First we went up north and in Connecticut, David and Navajat were there. Then Matagiri, Matagiri and there was some personality development center in Connecticut known to David and Navajat. They had invited Madhav to speak. They liked my Tanpura very much and they asked if they could record the tanpura and then they recorded. I began with Sanskrit hymn on that, not a concert actually but a little bit of, they said those were not, the Indian music festivals had not then traveled to those countries only in the big cities the big Ustads like, Ali Akhbar Khan, Ravi Shankar and this were there. But in the other cities nobody knew about these things so they were eager to hear about Indian music and all that. Now what could I say because Indian devotional music or the Veda what would they understand about the Veda you see. Some explanation has to be given, but within ten minutes or within 15 minutes I had to give them a sample of Indian music. And we had no accompaniment. My friend and teacher Sirin Shroff had told me to record Tanpura on four different pitches. So that for whichever composition the pitch suitable I could have. So on A and B and C, but mostly I was singing on A because of the lower thing for the Sanskrit you see. B and C were for other types of music which I also sang to show the difference, various kinds of Indian music. So I would take a small tape recorder I had one small one because I had to keep it near the mike. I had to take a small one so I could just get the pitch and the ro ro ro ro slight for me to hear and then I would start. People would ask is this is recorded I'd say it's only the pitch the drone that is recorded the rest you know I am singing live. So that is what I did at the personality development center, they liked it very much and then afterwards, after the Sanskrit thing I gave a sample of Indian devotional music and then next sample of folk music one of Rabindranath's songs. So the variety in Indian music according to the times, in the universities the same thing. In the universities also though I was not slated to sing even then they made me sing. 15 minutes or something like that before Madhav. Within 15 minutes I had to fit in different little little speeches. So I made a program when we were travelling in the van I would sit in the back because that was a full length thing, if I wanted to lie down I could lie down that's the way Stan had fixed it. Then I would keep that small tape recorder and I had taken three music books with me. And then I would see how many minutes I would have to sing in the next place of stop. I joked that we were like a travelling circus, we would travel during the day and where we stopped well sing for my supper. So how many minutes I would see according to the program and I would choose just those pieces which would fit in with that. And I gave the English meaning briefly so that they might follow what I was doing. So I had made a program that was called the evolution of Indian music, devotional music from the earliest times to the present. People had presented classical music, the evolution of devotional music, devotional music through the centuries up to the present times. First I would start with Rik from the Veda and in the Veda I would explain that at that time only three notes were used, the riks were chanted with only those three notes. So with spiritual meaning, the rik I would choose from the rig Veda and with three lines and so it would not be like a song but a chant because the mood between the three notes, so there was a short melody. So it was the original melody in which the riks are sung by the pandits. Only when I did it, it became a little more sing song because I was singer you see. And the accents had to be put just right, in Sanskrit some words were emphasized and the accent had to be put right there, I copied it like that in Devanagiri. So two minutes of Rig Veda, three minutes from the Upanishads. The Upanishadic time little more than three notes were used, maybe a fourth note was added another half note and something like that. So a little more was there melody was there melody was there than the Rig one which had to move only between three notes. So three and a half, four notes Upanishadic pattern. Very inspiring verses from the Upanishads one or two verses. Then came the Gita, because after Veda, Upanishad, Gita these are the three main sacred scriptures. A couplet from the Gita. That of course I gave a few more notes. Then came the puranas, the age of the Puranas, legends myths and legends. Purana on Sri Ram, Bhagavat Purana on the ten avatars of Vishnu, Krishna avatar was one. Ten avatars of Vishnu so all theses from the Puranas one thing I would take and from the tantra the famousgurustrotra, it is from the tantra, Vishwasaratantra, the tantra Vishwasara, the essence of the universe. And the name of the tantric text is Vishwasaratantra. From there the gurustrotram, some verses from the gurustrotram.

Narad: And you have to do this in fifteen minutes?

Vasanti: Yes, so from the gurustrotram I gave only two couplets according to the time given I did only that. According to the time given I chose the pieces now rik and Upanishadic took only three minutes or something like that. Rik would take just one minute because it is just recited. And then shanti patha is part of both Vedic and Upanishadic thing, shanti patha. Saswasti patha that is auspicious words invoking the auspicious words that is saswasti patha, so these are universal. They have universal value. Any religion can have them because no god is mentioned. So then in Purana for the first time the guru is mentioned because in the tantra the embodiment of the divine is made. It's starts with the formless and the quality-less, gunas is qualities, formless and from there the progression is there in that gurustrotram which is not understandable by all but you have to see the progression. That is how the poet has written that. First the un-manifest in nothing and from the un-manifest a little stir a quality comes and slowly the Sat Cit Ananda qualities come and after that the guru comes. Because the guru is the one who points us towards that, that goal, tat padam, the padam is that station. Tat padam darshitam yena, that station, that high position is shown by whom he is the truth, that guru. By the one who shows us that, by that guru I bow. So this is the connection to the un-manifest when he starts taking manifestation and it gives the qualities and all that. Then the one who points to that, to that guru I bow. And that is how the verses go and next few verses all describe the embodied Brahman and each time and the one who shows that to us, to that guru I bow. And finally at the end the unity of the one who shows the goal and shows the path it is shown, then he says guru is Brahma, guru is Vishnu, guru is Mahadeva, guru is verily the Brahman, to that guru I bow down. So the link between the disciple and the guru and the highest is. And this progression comes verse by verse, verse by verse. And this gurustotra is chanted by every spiritual center in India, every Indian spiritual center whether it is the Hindu Jain or any of the other sects of the monistic philosophy or the Dwaita philosophy, the dualistic philosophy or the Vishitadwaita, the qualified monism. Adwaita Vedanta, the undivided, non dual, adwaita Vedanta, Dwaita Vedanta, and Vishitadwaita Vedanta you see. All those people no matter what differences are there among themselves the gurustotra is sung. And it is not just a blind adoration of the guru as you may know from this. 

Narad: Let's take just one minute, one minute.