Eckhart Tolle and Sri Aurobindo

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Questions and Answers at Esalen

(Eckhart's responses to written questions from the author during a talk at the Esalen retreat, June 1 and 2, 2001. The responses have been paraphrased and abbreviated by the author.)

DALAL: Can the state of surrender in which one is able to say "yes" to whatever is, be attained so long as the sense of a separate "!"or ego persists?

ECKHART: Ego and surrender cannot, indeed, coexist. The ability to say "yes" to what is does nor come from the ego. One who is strongly entrenched in the ego would not even understand the meaning of saying "yes" co what is. The fact chat you are able to understand the meaning of saying "yes" to what is and can recognize its truth shows that the egoic structures have already loosened within you and a deeper consciousness is already emerging in you, although the egoic structures reassert themselves and you are not able to say "yes" all rhe rime. The ego itself cannot say "yes."

DALAL: Are there degrees of Presence, as there are degrees of unconsciousness? The state of Presence in which one has the sense

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of being a witness who is not identified with the forms seems relatively less difficult to attain and to sustain, but a state of Presence which is also a state of joy and love does not seem to be within easy reach. How can the state of Presence be deepened so as to be more than just being the state of a detached witness?

ECKHART: The state of Presence arises when one becomes aware of one's thoughts. For instance, when reading about positive and negative thinking in a New Age book, one becomes suddenly aware of one's negative thought patterns; it is due to the arising of Presence. Becoming the witness of one's mind and its inherited conditionings is the first stage of Presence. When one becomes a witness, one also realizes that one can exercise a choice and change one's thinking through various New Age methods such as affirmation and visualization. But one cannot attain a permanent state of happiness by mere affirmations. One realizes after a while that, though one can change things by changing one's thinking, one cannot get out of the polarities or the opposites of high and low in life as long as one does not go beyond mind. One can go beyond the opposite polarities only by transcending thought and rising into a level of consciousness beyond mind. In one's external form, one will still continue to experience the polarities of pleasure and pain, but the polarities will be more benign and less extreme. One has to allow the polarities as part of what is, for polarities cannot altogether be abolished as long as there is the universe.

Regarding the question of whether there are degrees of Presence, yes, there are degrees of Presence. We talked about the arising of Presence when one becomes the witness of one's mind structures. Listening to these talks is one way of deepening the Presence. Also, the more often one chooses Presence by remembering to step out of one's mind, out of mental noise into alertness and Presence, the more does Presence deepen. How long one can stay in the state of Presence is immaterial. What matters is how often one returns to the state of Presence. The true deepening comes when, from

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becoming alert and aware of things, one becomes aware of awareness itself, the field of awareness which we call variously Stillness, Consciousness, or Presence. It is happening. One has only to allow it to happen.

DALAL: Is not spiritual practice necessary for leading a spiritual life? Doesn't spiritual practice involve time? [Eckhart has said that time is the greatest obstacle in spiritual life.]

ECKHART: It may be necessary for you to have a spiritual practice, but it is not absolutely necessary for everyone to go through spiritual practice in order to have a transformation. There are cases of persons having a transformation without any spiritual practice. Ramana Maharshi had liberation after a brief profound experience at the age of 16 or 17, and there was no prior spiritual practice. One might say that, in such cases, there must have been spiritual practice in previous lifetimes. That is possible. But the fact remains that, for some, spiritual practice may consist only in the suffering they go through. That was the case with me. Suffering was my teacher, but I was not consciously engaged in any spiritual practice. It is true that such cases of a sudden and definitive liberation are rare. In most cases, liberation involves a process of going through spiritual practice. But even in such cases the final step comes when one lets go of everything, including their spiritual practice. Liberation is not likely to happen as a direct result of spiritual practice; it is not like a graduated course that one goes through step by step until completion of the course. The Buddha went through practices of all sorts for many years. But he became enlightened only when he dropped everything, including time and future, and sat under a tree. So, spiritual practice may be appropriate, but it is neither indispensable for everyone nor sufficient in itself.

Regarding the time involved in spiritual practice, that is the danger and the drawback with many spiritual practices: They give you time to get better and better at it and work towards the future goal of finding your self However, there are

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simple practices in which time and future are not involved. When you listen to the sound of the ocean and become aware of the awareness in which that sound happens, you could be said to be doing a spiritual practice. Looking at a plant in the state of stillness, saying "yes" to whatever arises, can be called spiritual practice. It is more than just spiritual practice. It is a way of living. It is the liberated way of living.

When one is not yet continuously dwelling in the liberated way of living, it emerges from rime to time as a state of Presence. It becomes obscured again and again, and one chooses Presence again and again. One moves back and forth from unconsciousness to consciousness until consciousness becomes your normal state. Each time you choose Presence, you are doing a spiritual practice, and when Presence becomes your normal state, it brings an end to spiritual practice—or you could say that you are in continuous spiritual practice.

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