Talks by Nirodbaran

6 August 1969

Happiest who stand on faith as on a rock."¹²² [This was the quotation put up on the blackboard as thought for the day.)

Ah! I'm happy, and when I am happy, everybody is happy! [Sees a newcomer] I'll have to be very careful now! Well, before I take up the half-finished letter, I'd like to share with you a very interesting and illuminating conversation I had with Sri Aurobindo on the subject of the film Vir Bhimsen that we saw the other day, and since you were there in spite of the very heavy rain drenching you through and

122 SABCL, 29:499.

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through, I was very happy to see that you still take great interest in our Puranic stories; you've not become so modernised as to lose the taste for our spiritual traditions and the glory that India once was and still is, though covered with poverty and other problems. At the beginning, as I was entering the playground, there was a light drizzle. I met Pranab at the gate, and he said, "Namashkar, Nirod-da." Somehow he has taken a very venerating attitude towards me! (Laughter) Then he told me, "It doesn't matter if it rains today, tomorrow we will screen the movie once again." This comment seemed to mean that if it would rain, he would make it a point to show the film the next day. "You must see it." I don't know what he liked so much in the film! (Laughter) Please remember, this is our confidential class and what is spoken here in the class must not be repeated elsewhere!

But probably, knowing him as I do, and Bhima¹²³ being such a great hero, he must have taken a great delight in the heroic exploits of Gadādhar¹¹⁴ Bhima. You also must have enjoyed it, I'm sure. But what you liked most I don't know - Bhima's gadā¹²⁵ or Krishna's chakra¹²⁶ or Draupadi's sad plight, or perhaps the dancing of the dwarf. If you ask me, I'll tell you what I liked most - I liked it for all this and for a glimpse of India's former glory. Different people have different tastes and they like different things according to their different tastes, isn't it so?

That reminds me of a story told by none other than Sri Ramakrishna. He said - I don't swear that every word is true, but the essence is there. You know Ramakrishna was a very witty avatar - but then, all avatars are witty! So the story goes like this: There was, once, a sankirtan patha in some holy place, a temple or some similar place. You know what sankirtan is - kirtan, bhajan, devotional songs woven around the figures of Sri Krishna and Radha and other gopis,¹²⁷ etc.,

123Bhima was one of the five Pandava brothers in the epic Mahabharata. He was a brave warrior and physically a very strong man. Here Nirod-da is comparing Pranab to Bhima because Ptanab was also physically very strong.

124Mace-bearer.

125Mace.

126Spinning metal disc with serrated edge: the mighty weapon or Lord Krishna.

127The gopis at milkmaids of Brindavan were all in love with Lord Krishna the cowherd,

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etc. So passersby were attracted by the kirtans. One of these passersby - a very ordinary man of the village - came and sat there; he began to take in with rapt attention the music, the devotional dance, etc. Then, you know, there were various devotional attitudes and sentiments expressed through these songs and this ordinary man began to shed tears, profusely. Well, at the end of it all he said was, "Babu,¹²⁸ I liked it very much, you've seen by the shedding of my tears; it was wonderful!" "What made you like it?" "When the singer was crying 'Bondhu he, Bondhu he!'¹²⁹ it reminded me of my beloved; I began to shed tears out of joy." So there was no question of religion moving him; it was only because the refrain of the song reminded him of his beloved that he could not help shedding tears.

So ladies and gentlemen, I don't know what you liked most in this story; but what I liked was my shared delight between Bhima's gada and Krishna's chakra. But, somehow, Sri Krishna was uppermost in my mind. I don't know if it has ever occurred to you (to some, it must have) that this Sri Krishna that you saw was none other than Sri Aurobindo. Perhaps you know that he was one of Sri Aurobindo's incarnations. That was what touched me most and I was constantly thinking: Ah, so Sri Aurobindo came as Sri Krishna and did all this. It gave me an immense pleasure to see Him tangibly, concretely, in the film. However crude, however ludicrous the film may have been, one could see a glimpse of Sri Krishna and the truth that He represented. And knowing this as well as you do, that it was Sri Aurobindo who was Sri Krishna, I took a great delight, forgetting all these crudities and all the small, minor flaws in the film. It came as a sort of a revelation.

But apart from all that enjoyment, when I saw the battle of Kurukshetra, I felt somehow, I don't know whether I am right or wrong, that we, all of us here, must have taken part in this battle! We must have fought, we must have killed, we must have been killed, we

symbolizing the individual souls who are all in love with the One Krishna. 'Rasa Lila' (the play of Divine Love) is a symbol of this spiritual play of love, of the One Krishna having infinite relations with all individual souls.

128Sir, in Bengali.

129O Friend, my Friend.

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must have died, and we must have lived again. Somehow that was the impression I got from watching that great holocaust. As I said, I may be entirely wrong, and it could all be just my fancy. Perhaps I am just flying kites in the air!

But my association with Sri Aurobindo and my prolonged service to Him somehow corroborate and confirm this belief, this faith, that perhaps as a rat or as a cat or, at best, as a common soldier, I might have been there, taking some small part; so too might all of you, either as fighters or wives of fighters or daughters of fighters. Some such connection must have been there either at Kurukshetra or somewhere else, which has brought all of us here in this life. I think the Mother said once that we have all met before in previous lives; either in the French Revolution or in the Russian Revolution or in the Indian Revolution; wherever They have been, we must have been there too somehow, somewhere; otherwise we would not have met today in this field of the Yoga of Transformation.¹³⁰ That's my personal view.

Anyway, when I saw the film, there were some questions that troubled me. Since I identified Sri Krishna with Sri Aurobindo, seeing Sri Krishna's personality at that time, and Sri Aurobindo's personality as I knew it, I couldn't reconcile the two. I had seen Sri Aurobindo as very gentle, nay, tender, almost childlike, sometimes a bholanath.¹³¹ Here was a different person, a charioteer, a shrewd statesman, a man of action who was even prepared for war. So here were these two different personalities: this Sri Krishna fronting violent action and carnage, and on the other hand, Sri Aurobindo, the gentle bholanath! So as I was pondering over all these, turning them over in my mind, Sri Aurobindo appeared to me and I had a long conversation with him.

The talk is somewhat long. I'll read out¹³² a part here and a part

130The traditional path of yoga aims for liberation from the bondage of the lower narure into the ineffable silence and peace of the Supreme. But the aim of integral yoga is not liberation alone. It is the complete transformation of the lower nature, even of the body. It is not an escape into God's ocean of Sat-chit-ananda, but the very divinization of matter itself.

131Master of simplicity; another name for Lord Shiva.

132As Nirod-da clarifies in the next talk, dated 13 August 1969, this was a conversation

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there because you don't expect me to remember everything that I heard and said. Even as I was seeing the film, I was asking questions, and He was answering me. Just as He had uttered the Bhagavad Gita on the battlefield, so it was here. So it goes in this way. I asked him:

Well, sir, all this carnage, ail this massacre that 1 see perpetrated here, you are the author of all this. I will, however, ask about that later on. Please tell me first, why do you make the Pandavas suffer so much? The Pandavas, who are your devotees, who are your bhaktas, who are your friends, who took shelter for their life and death at your feet, for what capricious reason have you made them suffer so much?

Then, well, as I'd provoked Him, so He too answered in a provocative tone:

You should have known by now that those who love me, and those whom I love, suffer most.

And I muttered:

Strange idea of love!

(Laughter) Then He said:

Otherwise, what's the use of love? What is love for? Is it only for a pot of honey ? Is it only to tread on a rosy path ? Love has to be tested in the burning fire, in order to see how far it is genuine.

Remember the line in Savitri: "... must fire always test the great of soul?"¹³³ So there you are. These Pandavas were great of soul. And love is a thing which is divine. If it is genuine, it has got to pass through fire. So that was the answer He gave me. Further, He said (as I was watching the film):

The Pandavas are clearly chosen instruments. They have come here for a special purpose of mine. I've got to do some work through them. So they have to be prepared to go through trials and difficulties and hardships. Pain is necessary, knocks and shocks are good for the soul. See on the other hand the Kauravas. They have enjoyed a happy life, a life of ease, a life of comfort. To what end? It is all because of their mama (uncle) who brought ruin and multifarious

he had with Sri Aurobindo within his own mind.

133 Book VI, Canto I,423.

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hardships to them.

As soon as He uttered the word "mama", my thoughts went to my nieces, whose presence in the Ashram has mama-fied¹³⁴ me for many people! (Laughter) To continue with Sri Aurobindos reply:

Also, don't you forget that though I am inflicting 'punishment', as you call it, or suffering, I am always with the Pandavas. Also please note carefully that punishment is not what it seems to be. It is the natural consequence of one's own limitation of consciousness and of one's own acts. I have never deserted them. Wherever they are, I am with them, I guard them, I protect them, I guide them. My love is always with them. Is that not enough? You see only the dark side of things because the Man of Sorrows in you is pleased to show you only that. Please see a little more widely, a little deeply, a little more intuitively and perceptively.

[N:] All right, sir. I accept. Still, a greater puzzle troubles me. How could you have allowed Draupadi to be dragged, to be insulted publicly before so many, in front of such a vast audience ? Why did you allow that ? For what reason? Can you explain that ?

I asked him this with burning indignation. He answered:

Peace! You are evidently moved too much by ladies.

(Laughter)

So am I. But first of all, kindly remember that I was not there when she was being dragged. Secondly, what were her five husbands doing ? What were the great heroes, Bhishma, Drona, etc. doing when this poor woman was being dragged before all this vast audience? They didn't dare lift a small finger? They were all kshatriyas, they were all heroes, they were all nobles. Why didn't they protest ?

[N:] That is another question. My question is, why didn't you? You certainly knew what was going to happen. Anyway, why did you allow it to happen? And this ignominy for a woman is unbearable. You know that very well, and you came only when, at the extremity of her pain and suffering, she cried out,' Trahi-mam! Trahi-mam!¹³⁵

[SA:] Yes, I did come.

134The author means that he is now recognized and known in the ashram as 'mama because of his nieces.

135Protect me! Protect me!

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[N:] But you came rather late!

[SA:] Yes, I came rather late, but why? Because she called me rather late. She was waiting and looking to her husbands to come and protect her. They didn't budge. Then she looked around at the audience, they didn't care a jot. So, utterly helpless then, she began to cry for me, and I came at once. That heart-piercing cry, that cry of lamentation and agony! When you have found that everything is lost, it is at this moment when you call the Divine that He comes to rescue you."

Well! So, as He said:

You must desire most intensely, if you want the Divine. But there is a deeper mystery behind it. Shocking indeed! With your rational pate ...

I hope you know the meaning of the word pate' - head

... you do not see it, you do not understand.

I was all agog. Let's see, lets hear what deeper mystery He is going to reveal. Then He said:

It is such atrocious behaviour that strikes against the Divine Seat and tilts the balance for the God of Justice. The way the Kauravas acted atrociously towards a helpless, God-loving woman sealed their doom, and the Pandavas woke to the idea of grave vengeance. Then Mahakali's wrath fell upon the Kauravas because they'd insulted Her own Shaktis, Her powers. Beware! Have you finished your questions ? I've elsewhere to go, so many are calling me.

[N:] I have another question. Now I accept poor Draupadi's humiliation, but what about Abhimanyu, that poor boy? Why was he sacrificed at the altar? Was this not a terrible sacrifice?

[SA:] Yes, and it is for the same reason. It was necessary to awake fully the wrath of the slothful, sentimental Pandavas. Even the revelation of my 'Vishwarupa'¹³⁶ could not utterly convince Arjuna to take up arms and fight against the Kauravas. He was still hesitating. But when Abhimanyu died at the hands of so many 'heroes' in an unfair manner, that did the trick. You have read Homer, I suppose. You know the story of Achilles. He was sulking in his tent because of a

136 The Universal form of the Divine, as distinct from the Transcendent and the Individual.

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wrangle between himself and Agamemnon for nothing mote than a woman! But when he heard that his great friend Patroclus had been killed by Hector, then all his wrath flared up and he went out in a mad fury to fight. So his friend had to be sacrificed. Here too Abhimanyu had to be sacrificed in order that the others might join in the fight; and you saw Bhima's gada break Duryodhan's proud thighs and Bhima's hands tear open the chest.

I shuddered and said:

That, I think, is too much. Particularly Draupadi soaking her hair in Duhshasan's blood!

[SA:] Ah, since when have you become so humane?! Three cheers for St. Nirod!

(Laughter)

Is it your Buddhist blood or Gandhi's non-violence at work?

(Laughter)

You must remember, my friend, that it was the heroic age when men and women were heroes and heroines. I suppose you won't approve of Kurukshetra either, and would advocate the gospel of love and compassion. Gandhi said that battle was completely symbolic. Well, that is what India has come to today. See the condition of the world: Russia, America, Israel, Nasser, Mao Tsetung. Well, really, our Indira Gandhi is hard put to it to manage her house. She looks with one eye at Russia, with another eye at Ametica and perhaps with both eyes at China ...

(Laughter)

... and this is our position today. So where is our gospel of nonviolence leading? No, you can't have non-violence, till...

He did nor complete the sentence. He asked:

Have you read my Essays on the Gita?

[N:] Yes, I have read it.

[SA:] Read it again and look with a fresh eye at the passage where I have dealt with this question.

Then he left me. I came home and read the passage. Let me read it out to you [Reading from Essays on the Gita (1966), 354-355]:

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No real peace can be till the heart of man deserves peace; the law of Vishnu cannot prevail till the debt to Rudra is paid. To turn aside then and preach to a still unevolved mankind the law of love and oneness? Teachers of the law of love and oneness there must be, for by that way must come the ultimate salvation. But not till the Time-Spirit in man is ready can the inner and ultimate prevail over the outer and immediate reality. Christ and Buddha have come and gone, but it is Rudra who still holds the world in the hollow of his hand. And meanwhile the fierce forward labour of mankind tormented and oppressed by the Powers that are profiteers of egoistic force and their servants' cries for the sword of the Hero of the struggle and the word of its prophet.

So this is the message interpreted by Sri Aurobindo. Perhaps you know Sri Aurobindo said that when He was in jail, the Gita was put into His hand. Not literally, mind you, but in a subtle manner, as things are given to you in your dreams, in your visions. So He told us that this Gita was given to Him by Sri Krishna. And if you read Essays on the Gita, which I recommend very strongly to all of you, particularly to those who are grown up, you will have no doubt that it was Sri Aurobindo Himself who was Sri Krishna. Who else could be the author of the luminous and revealing interpretation that He gives, the intimate and understanding tone in which He expresses Himself, and the deeper secret, undiscovered by anybody yet, that He lays bare? There have been so many interpretations of the Gita, all of them partial, for none has that 'uttamam rasa' or supreme taste which is His alone, because He is dealing with His own ancient message. For that matter, you will see that any other book that He has written is all out of personal experience.

Take His narrative poem "Baji Prabhou", for instance. In His descriptions of the battle, of the see-saw of fortunes, of the flight of the soldiers and of their forward movement, the minutest details are given. It would have been impossible, I believe, for any writer to recreate such intricate movements of the battle, merely through imagination. This is true of His other books too. In His past lives, He has played so many roles and He has relived them now, brought them out through his works. Essays on the Gita, particularly, is one

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of the most fascinating books that I've ever read. We have no doubt that Sri Krishna was reborn as Sri Aurobindo, and carried on the same struggle even in our day, inwardly and outwardly - from the higher inner chamber in which He lived for so many years. Not as a fighter all along, nor as a charioteer, but as a commander of a great spiritual power, marshalling and directing that spiritual power which knows no time and space, He has moved, He has guided the world-chariot. When Hitler was in the ascendant, all of you know that it was Mother and Sri Aurobindo who championed the cause of the Allies; and Mother declared it was Her war. She even said in one of Her most firm notices, "Those who speak against the Allies are traitors." At that time, Churchill stood up from Britain and De Gaulle from France for the cause. They were the champions, Arjuna and other Pandavas against the Hitlerite Kauravas. And after so many ignominious defeats, you know what happened ultimately: the Allies were triumphant, the Fascists were crushed, the Japanese were routed - Pakistan met with the same fate later on; and the humbled China turned tail and went back. Still, unfortunately, India is hugging the dry and dark bones of her dark prophets.¹³⁷

Perhaps you don't know that during the visit of Cripps, with his proposal for Indian Independence, Sri Aurobindo sent His emissary from here to Delhi to persuade the Congress to accept the British proposals. Sri Aurobindo had never done such a thing before. But he saw that Cripps had come on the wave of a great inspiration. Had it been accepted, as so many clear thinkers say today, India's fate would have been different. There would have been no Pakistan. There is such a thing as fate. When this mission failed, we said to Sri Aurobindo, "You see, your mission has failed." He said, "I knew it," and I pounced on the pronouncement: "If you knew it, why did you send your emissary?" He smiled in His usual, enigmatic way and, looking up, said, "Well, I have done a bit of 'nishkama karma',¹³⁸ knowing very

137What Nirod-da means is that Indians have no faith in Sri Aurobindo, who is guiding world destiny. They should have more faith in Him that all will end well.

138Disinterested work, an ideal preached in the Bhagavad Gita.

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well it would fail."

Again, that reminds me of Sri Krishna. As you know, He went on a peace mission. He knew very well that His peace proposal would not be accepted, but He wanted to give a chance to Duryodhana. "Do accept peace. Let's live amicably," He said. The result, you know: Duryodhana arrested Him. Here, fortunately, Sri Aurobindo was far away, safe, and, after all, the Congress are our own people; they merely refused to accept the Cripps proposal. This is the story.

You see then, there are so many parallelisms between Sri Aurobindo's life and Sri Krishna's, and you know very well what happened on 24 November 1926: the great Descent. He said to us that, on that day, which we call the Siddhi Day,¹³⁹ Sri Krishna's consciousness descended into Him.

I have finished my tale. I spoke about a conversation I had with Sri Aurobindo, but please remember that the conversation I had is not to be accepted as the gospel truth. I may have heard wrong, I might have interpolated my own interpretations, so please don't pass them on as Sri Aurobindo's exact words. It was a semi-imaginary talk that was held under particular circumstances, as I hope you understand. I don't swear to the truth of it, so please remember that.

Now we come back to the Life of Sri Aurobindo. Where were we? [Reading from The Life of Sri Aurobindo by A. B. Purani (1960), 198-200]:

I do not want a society founded on division. I want a Sangha¹⁴⁰ which is the image of spiritual unity and founded on the spirit ... Our business is not with the formless spirit. We have to keep life in motion ... If one pours the spiritual power into all these impure forms, the water of the causal ocean into a raw vessel - either that raw vessel will break and the water be spilt and lost, or the spiritual power will evaporate and only the impure form remain. In all fields it is the same. I can give the spiritual power but that power will be expended in making the image of an ape and setting it up in the temple of Shiva.

139On November 24,1926, the Overmind Consciousness was established permanently in Sri Aurobindo.

140A spiritual collective, with all members following a common goal.

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We have a Bengali proverb: 'Shib godte banor goda hold (Instead of the image of Shiva, a monkey's image was made.)

If the ape is made powerful by the putting of life into it, he may play the part of the devotee Hanuman and do much work for Rama, so long as that life and that power remains. But what we want in the Temple of India is not Hanuman, but God, the Avatar Rama himself ... If we remain individually everywhere, something will be done indeed, but if we remain everywhere, as parts of a Sangha, a hundred times more will be done. As yet, that time has not come ... As we go on doing this, there will be established a spiritual community. This is my present idea. As yet, it has not been fully developed, all is in God's hands, whatever he makes us do, that we shall.

You write about the Deva-Sangha: I am not a God, I am only some much-hammered and refined iron. No one is God, but in each man there is a God and to make him manifest is the aim of divine life. That we can all do.

I do not want hundreds of thousands of disciples. It will be enough if I can get a hundred complete men, empty of petty egoism, who will be instruments of God.

If the raw person goes amidst the raw, what work can he do ?