An Interview with Prof. Kireet Joshi

Imagine somebody greater than the universe (Prof. Kireet Joshi)

Transcript of an interview with Prof. Kireet Joshi

Interviewer: Kireet Bhai, this interview is really to ask you to speak about the Mother. First because you were there at that time and we were not there and we feel like asking you what was it like to be there at that special time in that special place and to be there in this atmosphere that surrounded the Mother.

Prof. Kireet Joshi: I used to go to the Mother every Sunday from the 18th May 1969 up to 30th of March 1973. The question that you are asking is as to how I used to feel. It is a very difficult question because it is inexpressible, ineffable. How to express the ineffable? You felt completely comforted and surprisingly one never felt that you are in the presence of some very very great Presence. It was as if in the lap of your mother - so comfortable, so easy and so happy. There was all the time available; in fact She never seemed to be in a hurry. I used to ask many questions to the Mother about the Centre of Education, about Sri Aurobindo's action and Auroville and every time Her answer was immediate. There was no gap between question and answer, as it were. You never felt that She has now to think over it. The answer was almost ready. It was ready and coming forth as if the answer was before my question. Well, there was absolute concentration of the Mother. Such concentration I have never seen anywhere. When I spoke a word, it was completely heard by Her. Of course some people used to say that Mother doesn't hear but I contradict fully because up to 30th of March, 1973 whatever I spoke to Her She heard fully well. She corrected things which I spoke and I had complete assurance that She heard, She replied, precisely to the question that I asked and there was no mistake about it at all and there was

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no hesitation in answering any question at all. Well, I can only say that I was in the lap of the Mother and I am congratulating my left arm because She used to caress my left arm several times during my visit to Her. It was full of Love, and the most joyous time of my life - in fact the most privileged, golden time.

Let me tell you some of the internal experiences that I had. I met the Mother for the first time in 1952. When I went to Her, I was introduced to Her as a pupil of my teacher who had taken me to Her. Then for seven days I stayed in Golconde and I used to go every day to tennis ground when Mother used to play tennis. I always used to feel that when She used to throw the ball, as if She was playing with the universe. That was the feeling in my heart. That She was playing with the universe. She was throwing the ball. Every ball was, as it were, the universe and She was beating the universe, as it were, with Her racquet. On the last day, 7th day, when I was leaving - I had gone to Her, at the playground in the room where Sri Aurobindo's portrait is still there. She gave me a bunch of flowers of Purity, jasmine flowers. So many, both my palms were full and I remember that when I went to the train I felt the same Mother standing before me and for seven days thereafter I had the same experience - as if Mother was everywhere-wherever I looked around I felt Mother was there. That was my first experience of the Mother. Then later I had come one day to have an interview with the Mother - I prayed to Her. She said, " I am so busy. For two months I am completely booked." I could not meet Her personally but I had written a letter to Her and She replied to me, not in words but in actions. All my problems which I had put before Her, they came to be resolved one after the other. In 1955, I had come here. She had remarked to somebody, "That boy is a nice boy. " And then 1956 when I came, to remain here permanently - next day Her secretary told me, "I have never seen Mother so happy as when She said, 'Oh, he is so nice, so nice'. " I feel ashamed to tell you this because it is concerning me but I was very very happy. I am very encouraged by the Mother. Even

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today I feel - encouraged - when I feel that I am now feeling, I am going away, - I still feel encouraged by the words She had spoken at that time. First work She gave me was in the press, then in the library and the library time was a very good time for me. I had used to spend a lot of time in my meditation and one day in the evening I had an experience of my witness Self. I cannot say that was me but there was a Self which was watching and a prayer was rising from my heart and I said, "Mother, I want to teach." I myself did not know this but I was witnessing my prayer: "Mother, I want to teach." I hadn't spoken to anybody about it, but the very next day Pavitra came in search of Kireet Joshi. He had never known me but he found me in the library and he told me, "Mother wants you to be the Registrar of the Centre of Education but she wants to know whether you would like to be." So I said, "Whatever Mother wants me to be, I shall be." This is the answer I gave and he went away but next day he came again and said, "Mother is not satisfied with your answer. You would certainly like to do whatever Mother says but what do You want? Would you like to be a Registrar?" So I said, "Yes, yes, I will." And that was the time, it was in November 1958, I think. December 16th the school was opening and within one month we were changing the entire system of education. I did that work very happily with the help of my friend Prof. Joshi, even now he is there in the laboratory, one of my greatest friends. With his help I could do the work within one month's time to open the school with a new system of education which I will not discuss now. That was the beginning of my work, as it were, with the Mother because although I never went to Mother personally but in about two years later Mother said to Pavitra da, "Now you are my post office between me and Kireet. " I used to refer many questions about the Centre of Education, about the development of the school and so on.

In 1969 Pavitra da left his body and thereafter on the 17th May evening - I was standing at the Samadhi - Champaklal came to me. It was Saturday evening. He said, "Grace, Grace, Grace of

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the Mother." So I turned to him and he said, "Mother has said every Sunday morning She will see you first. So 8 o' clock in the morning be present, at the Mother's room." When I went to the Mother the first time She was so gentle. Oh my god! She said, "Would you like to sit on a stool? " She offered me to sit on the stool. I said, "No, no, no. I will sit on the floor." And then She said, "Is there sufficient light? " She told Vasudha ben, "Bring the light here. "Lumiere", She said. Then I said, "I don't need the light, I can read quite well." I must tell you that I used to write down everything that I had to ask the Mother on every Saturday night. So that I don't have to waste my time in order to find the right words and so on. So I used to read out to Her all my questions and She used to answer every question separately, one by one, and very quickly. Well, this went on until the month of September, 1972.

In the meantime many things developed in our Centre of Education. You know the first thing that I had to do was to write a letter to the Prime Minister of India, when I joined the school. What had happened I do not know but I was asked by Pavitra da to write a letter to Prime Minister describing our Centre of Education and asking for support. So I wrote that letter which was read by the Mother. Mother liked that letter so much that She printed my description of the Centre of Education in the Bulletin. That means within one month I had mastered, as it were, the entire philosophy of education that Sri Aurobindo ... Of course I was reading Sri Aurobindo's books much earlier so it was not a big effort on my part.

Well, there were three events which were very important during the time ... before ... in the time of Pavitra da ... when we were working ... Actually I used to meet Pavitra da every day twice. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon. Every day, whatever questions came, he used to take from me and next day there were replies from the Mother. Again in the afternoon I had many

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questions and again (I) used to refer to the Mother. By next morning I had the answers to the questions.

Interviewer: It must have been that sometimes you had questions and the answer.... How could you explain... I mean the answer must have been from the Divine Mother and also from the physical Mother. No, I mean....

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Well, I had never felt that the Mother was the physical Mother. It was always the Divine Mother.

Interviewer: But you see it wasn't so like my Mother.

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Yes, I was in the lap of the Mother. I used to feel as if... so comforted, so joyous ... There was no restriction of any kind at all.

Interviewer: No, but sometimes She must have given answer that maybe you did not understand and then later on ....

Prof. Kireet Joshi: No, it did not happen like that. I think I understood what She said because She said so clearly and so beautifully it went straight into my heart.

Interviewer: But was there, sometimes, surprising answers?

Interviewer: Or decisions or ....

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Yes, for example there was X.. who was a disciple of the Mother and she had written one letter saying that she was not able to find the money because she has to take the permission of her board. She was a very favourite woman and I had a great respect for her but Mother, when I told her that she had to take permission of her board, She said something. She said, "It is humbug. " Something like that. "All the members of the board are her own yes men. So where is the question of taking the permission of the board." But this is quite a surprising answer from the Mother and She spoke as if She was tearing off this whole idea that she could not send the money. In fact I must tell you that, with the Mother, She was happiest whenever anything was offered to Her. This experience of mine that our whole being should offer to Her entirely, more and more and more and more. She was very happy with that.

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Interviewer: Some people I talked to . . . they say . . . like X . . . for instance, he said that when Mother looked at you She recognised

you, She knew exactly who you were.

Kireet Joshi: Yes of course, it was understood. Actually I was never surprised about it at all. I knew that She knew me more than anything else in the whole world (laughs). Fully, She knew me very well (laughs). She knew my weaknesses... whatever I was...

I'd narrate to you three experiences of mine when Pavtira da was still there but I had an opportunity of going to the Mother when the first Commission of Education came to meet the Mother. And I was present at that time. She said to one of the members of the committee, "Were the children of my school timid - I mean answering your questions? " The lady in charge said, "No, on the contrary so bright and so forthcoming that the poems which I had forgotten your children remembered them so well - from Keats, Wordsworth and Shelley. They are extremely good students." And Mother was very happy. She said, "Yes, my children here you know." She said, "When you see the children developing their muscles, gives you such a delight. " I feel very happy to hear these words. That to see the children developing their muscles and to see the Mother delighted when the children developed in that way.

Second time was: One Diwakar who was the Governor of Karnataka - he had come to visit our school as a commission from the Govt. of India. I saw that Mother was so kind, so gentle ... First of all She folded Her hands and did namaste to him. He was a disciple yet Mother was so gentle and then I was standing with Her and then She and I and Dr. Diwakar went to Sri Aurobindo's room. She took him to the whole of Sri Aurobindo's room, we came out and then She sat in the next room in the seat where She used to give, afterwards, darshan. Then She talked to him about the Centre of Education and so on. This is the second time when Commission of Education had come and I had the opportunity of meeting the Mother at that time.

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Third time was when I had visit of a few teachers from the country. Government of India had sent them here to see our school and I arranged the whole program. When I went with them to the Mother, it was a wonderful experience for me because Mother looked at me for 15 minutes, at a stretch. It was so marvellous that all other teachers were surprised. They were all left out as if the meeting was only for me. For 15 minutes at a stretch without any wink of Her eyes. She went on and on. There was another experience which I should narrate. You know I was in charge of all the boardings of the school and I used to give to the Mother, on a previous day, the date of the birthday of the given boarding. Once I made a mistake and gave a wrong date - six months earlier than the real birth date. Now, I was waiting that the people of the boarding will come. First they will meet me and then I will take them to the Mother. They did not turn up because it was not their birthday. So I realised that perhaps I made a mistake. Then I called the children, I went to the boarding, I brought the person in charge of the boarding. "Please come, today is your birthday." They said, "This is not our birthday." (Laughs) Then I went to Pavitra da and said, "I made a terrible mistake and I have given a wrong date to the Mother." He said, "What can I do?" I said, "Please tell the Mother." He said, "I won't tell the Mother. One doesn't know there will be bombardment or what kind." Then I went to Vasudha ben and said, "Please tell the Mother." She said, "I won't tell the Mother." (Laughter) Then I made myself bold to go to the Mother. I went inside and said, "Mother, I wish that the whole earth may burst out so that I may go down. I made a big mistake, please pardon me. She was so kind ... so kind . . . She looked at me and She said, "But this is the birth date. " "This is the birth date, correct date," She said. "From now onward this is the birth day." She said. She changed the birth date of the boarding. Then She said, "Bring them all inside". I brought them all inside. She was so kind, so kind . . . I've never seen such kindness anywhere in the world.

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Interviewer: Kireet Bhai, you used (words indecipherable) to see the Mother quite often, no?

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Quite often but not very often - birthdays and so on.

Interviewer: Could you tell us a little bit of Mother....

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Mother was very kind to everybody actually. I cannot tell you anything because my mind is so full of kindness of the Mother. I can only say that it is unsurpassable kindness on the earth. She was so kind to everybody, so sweet. Really, when we say Douce Mere, it is really a correct description of the Mother. Douce Mere.

I used to go to Delhi almost every year to bring the money from the Govt. of India grant. In 1966, when Indira Gandhi had become the Prime Minister of India, the Mother had given me a work to get the recognition of Ashram - not Centre of Education, Ashram as Centre of Yoga and Education so that (there is) no division between the Ashram and Centre of Education. I had written a letter to Indira Gandhi and I wanted to give it to her - but through whom was the question. I spoke to one of the members of the Parliament - who was the deputy leader of the Parliament - (first name not decipherable) Ghosh, who was a disciple of the Mother. He said, "I will take the letter to the Prime Minister." Then I happened to meet Dr. Karan Singh the same day and I told him, "This is the letter that I have to give to Indira Gandhi." He said, "You give it to me, I shall give it to Indira Gandhi." Then I was in a kind of a dilemma. To whom to give the letter? So I wrote to the Mother saying this is the dilemma. She sent me a telegram: " You give yourself to her. " (Laughter) It was 18th of February that year and 21st February was coming very soon and I wanted to be here for the darshan on 21st February but I didn't get the appointment with the Prime Minister. So I wrote to the Mother saying the time is now running out. So Mother sent me a telegram: "Persevere. Love and Blessings." Persevere, go on trying. I got the chance only on 21st February. So I gave the letter to Indira Gandhi. Of course that letter had a good fortune. Ultimately

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Ashram was recognised as a Centre of Yoga and Education. And that was a very useful letter. Mother said, "Keep it very carefully. "

(There) was another experience also. Whenever I used to go to Delhi it was my feast time because every day I used to report to the Mother of my efforts and every day I used to receive a telegram from the Mother: "Love and Blessings." Every day. Sometimes I used to stay there for 15 days, 20 days but every day I used to write a letter to the Mother and every day She used to reply through telegram: "Love and Blessings."

There are so many crowded memories in my mind but I will tell you two or three other things. One day I read out to Her a message to the youth which I had written down and She liked it very very much. She was very happy. That very evening there was a program when the Deputy Director General of UNESCO was to come here. So She said, "You read out the speech there, in the Ashram theatre." There was another occasion when I had prepared some kind of an anthology of Sri Aurobindo's action. It was a long, long anthology of about 25 pages. I had read out to Her and She had complete patience and She read out and said, "Put this paragraph here, paragraph there and so on." She minutely read it and one day suddenly in September 1970 or 71, I told the Mother, "I want to prepare a book for the youth of India. She said, "That's a very good idea. Come from tomorrow, every evening." It was a kind of a great boon to me and I took my passages which I had chosen. She said, "First of all refutation of materialism should be the first part. " Then I had my program of reading out about subconscient, conscient, superconcient and so on. She said, "No, no, no. After the refutation of materialism you come to Supermind." So I came to the conclusion the Mother wants to tell the children of India what is Supermind. I read out to Her every evening; afterwards it was every alternate evening because Nirod da in the meantime said he wanted to read out to Her a book that he was writing on Sri Aurobindo. So Mother told me, "I am now changing a little. Instead of coming every evening you will come every alternate evening." Then from the month of November X was

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also asked to come with me and thereafter from the month of December, January some more teachers also used to come and this went on up to 30th of March, 1973. Some of the conversations are there in the Collected Works of The Mother - very very interesting answers which Mother used to give to all the teachers. Two or three teachers, like X who always used to come with us. Kittu used to come with us and X and myself.

Another experience which I would like to remember is: When I was preparing something about Sri Aurobindo's action, I told the Mother that, after having understood what Mother wants to do for India's solutions for the problems, that Auroville is the content of Sri Aurobindo's action. She said, "Yes, yes it is true. " I said, "I have a great aspiration that there should be not only one Auroville but Aurovilles all over the country where there is no authority excepting the authority of the Truth and no religions excepting the Truth." She was so pleased when I said these words. She said, "Excellent, excellent, excellent. " Champaklal ji was sitting thereby and he was so enthused by this answer of the Mother he stood up and said, "Kireet, remember what the Mother is saying. Now you print this answer of the Mother - thousands of copies and distribute all over the country." So it was a very memorable experience of mine.

Interviewer: What is the most important and the most striking thing that you remember She told you about Auroville?

Prof. Kireet Joshi: She said, that I have three steps of my action. My first action was the establishment of the Centre of Education. My second action is Auroville. My third action is Sri Aurobindo 's action. This is the most important thing because I was absolutely, in my heart, completely sure that Auroville is a part of the Mother's action on the earth. I became absolutely sure. In fact Auroville has always given me great enthusiasm, right from the beginning. At one time when Auroville was being . . . just some plots of land were bought, I had taken a bus with my students of the Centre of Education - some of them - and all the way from here to Auroville we shouted, "We shall build Auroville." It was, as it were, Mother

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was all the time here in my heart and She was giving me enthusiasm for Auroville. When Auroville was to be inaugurated in 1968 -28th of February... In the month of January also - X and I wrote a letter to the Mother that we would like to offer some services to the program of Auroville. She wrote down in French: "It will be excellent. Up till now I have not told you to work for Auroville because I thought you were very busy with the school work but it will be very nice if Kireet takes charge of all the youths who are coming for the inauguration. " So from that day I took charge of all the youths who were to come and I accommodated all of them in the houses of Ashram. Of course I had taken the opportunity of taking them all to Auroville just about 9.30 or so, the time which was fixed for the inauguration and the relay of Mother's message. Of course there was some unpleasant moment on the previous day which I will not narrate now here but ultimately it went off and I came to... Mother rescued me actually from a very big problem. At 1 o' clock at night I heard Mother saying, "Go to Udar", for solution of the problem which I was facing and I went to Udar at 10' clock in the night and it was all closed. But in the morning I went to his house and he was ready at 5 o' clock and he arranged everything immediately. He answered my question and I was able to come... I must say the children of our school helped tremendously in the inauguration. At one time we had the idea that we shall start Auroville school with some of the children of our school here in Auroville but then there were some difficulties it could not be done. And then when some people's children were to be admitted to the school I had taken the applications to the Mother and She said, "No, don't take them in our school. Let them start the school there." That also gave me an indication that Mother wanted to make a new experiment in education.

Interviewer: How would you explain to new people, Kireet Bhai, that Auroville is an adventure. In what way is Auroville an adventure. How can ...tell people that?

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Prof. Kireet Joshi: First of all, there is of course a goal which is prefixed in the sense that it's going to be a social, collective organisation which will be a kind of a group which will respond to the supramental manifesation. This goal was very clear to me but how it will come about - there was hardly anything there excepting a few plots of land. One could have never imagined that Auroville would ever even come into existence because there was no money, there was no program and no way of informing the world that we are creating this (laughs). So it was an impossible thing, nothing but an adventure because without any preparation whatsoever -at least from my side I can see that there was no preparation at all. And I know how difficult was the time after Mother left Her body. Auroville would have collapsed completely and yet it is going so strong. Yesterday I was reading Auroville Today and I was reading water resources and so on. It was so interesting to read that so much work was being done which is remarkable and I bless the whole world that Auroville has been created and is continuing, it is existing and I derive so much of happiness on the existence of Auroville and every day is an adventure. I am quite sure that all of you who are living in Auroville, you have no program as if something was prefixed. It's all developing and growing, unchartered actually. So I really feel that it is an adventure of an unprecedented kind. As Mr. Tata said, "Here is one old lady sitting in one room and She says something and young people of the world are coming here. It's a miracle. How can it happen?" Mr. Tata was a great helper to the development of Auroville.

Interviewer: Suppose you would speak to children who are new to Auroville because there are some children who come to Auroville - I mean their parents come - and they come with their parents. They are 6 years old, or 8 years old. How would you tell them: "Who was the Mother?"

Prof. Kireet Joshi: I would simply say that... Look at the whole universe first of all and imagine something more than universe and that was the Mother. That was the starting point of my answer to the children. Look at the whole universe and imagine

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somebody who is greater than the universe and that was the Mother and even now She is their Mother. As far as the powers of the Mother are concerned, well, I know that any question that I put to Her, even inwardly, is answered immediately. There was a time when I was in need of a teacher to be appointed and the next day somebody would appear and Mother would say, "Take this teacher to teach in the school." So spontaneous and so easy. For everything there was complete opening, as it were. All questions were answered easily and smoothly without any difficulty at all. Smoothness is the one word I can use, completely smooth. The Mother who is your friend, your teacher, your guide and you are completely safe in Her lap. This is what I would like to say to our children. If you want a lap of complete smoothness without any worry, think of the Mother and slide down at Her feet, in Her lap all the problems are resolved.

Interviewer: Suppose they ask: How can we enter in contact with Her?

Prof. Kireet Joshi: You just tell the Mother: "I just come in contact with you and She will come because You must remember that Mother is a servant of servants. She is a servant actually. Always She used to feel that She is a servant actually, almost... Always you used to feel that She wants to serve you. It may look rather strange but my own experience with the Mother was that She wanted to help me and serve me as much as possible and to the most extent. You know one day I was in the Ministry of Education and there was one difficult financial adviser who was blocking our grant. So I went to a room next to her which was empty which was the reception room and I prayed to the Mother and had a vision, that Mother was signing that file. (Laughter). And then after 5 minutes that lady called me and said to me, "I have signed already. I like your institution very much." She was the most difficult woman to deal with.

So I would only tell the children, "Just tell the Mother: I want to be in your lap and you will be in Her lap." She answers immediately. Just as She answered my question: 'Mother, I want

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to teach' and the next day, Pavitra da who never knew me, he comes in looking for me. What an answer, immediate answer! As Mother said, every sincere prayer is answered immediately, instantaneously. And it is true to my experience and I had many many experience of this kind. I just prayed and the answer was given. One day when I went to Geneva and said, "I wished X was here." (Laughter). It is a fact, in Geneva X was there to help me and actually we typed out the first draft of the Auroville Act in Geneva. Of course it would afterwards modified several times. This is how.... Any child who wants to see the Mother you tell the child, "You tell the Mother, 'Mother I want to see you', She will do something for you and you will have satisfaction, 'Yes, I have seen.' You ask the Mother and She would answer it." The only point is that we don't ask. We want to do ourselves but we do not know how to ask the Mother. But intensity must be so great... Even here for example, in 2010 I came here. On the 8th of February, 2010, I had a very intense crisis. I prayed to the Mother: "Mother, please relieve me from this crisis", and then I had the vision - it was not a dream but a vision - in which I saw Her distributing things in the playground to many people, a long line, and in that line I was present. Then I knelt at the feet of the Mother and She said to me, "Come away to the Ashram." Then I came away here.

Interviewer: Same day, in fact.

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Not same time, I mean, you might say that same ... actually I remained for two months more because I had some work to finish but something again came and told me, "Today is the day when you should go." On the same day I left, I came here. So this is how Mother, even now, She is actively working. This is how you can tell the children that if you want to see the Mother you must ask but ask sincerely. You must be sincere. Sincerity is the only thing that Mother wants. She wants seriousness, sincerity and infinite reverence for the Divine. Even for education, I think, Mother has said that deep reverence for the Divine must be developed from the childhood, among the children. It's a part of spiritual education, you might say.

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I think we have done a lot, no?

Interviewer: Thank you so much Kireet Bhai I think we have taken enough of your time.

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Fine, thank you.

Interviewer: Thank you so much.

Prof. Kireet Joshi: Thank you so much, thank you.

15th March, 2013, interview by Christine,

filmed by Olivier Barot (Transcription by Jothi Charles,

Auroville)

Courtesy: Auroville

(Prof. Kireet Joshi (1931 - 2014) was Registrar of Sri Aurobindo International Centre of Education, Puducherry. A scholar and author, he was Special Secretary to the Government of India from 1983 to 1988 and Chairman of Auroville Foundation from 1999 to 2004.)

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