Pandit Nilakantha Mahadeva Joshi

Extract from 'Champaklal Speaks'

Whenever he went to see her, the Mother used to give him flowers. On 30 March 1959, on coming out from the interview he put the flowers Mother had given him in my hands. Later I took them to the Mother and she was more surprised to know what had happened than I had been on receiving the flowers from Panditji. She kept looking at them. Then with a smile she put them in my hands. It was as if she were giving me not only those three flowers but something ineffable and unknowable. It was a momentous experience that she gave me along with these flowers which signify Victory. I have preserved them carefully.

Once, talking about Panditji, Mother said that when they were meditating together, she rose higher and higher in meditation and Panditji also climbed up to that height. The meditation they had together was very interesting. I know that no ordinary person could have achieved that with Mother. And about the Mother, he once said: "The Mother is swayamprakasha, self-luminous."

One day, while seeing a photo of Panditji, Mother divided his face in two by keeping the side of her hand horizontal, between the upper lip and the nose. Then she said: “The upper part of the face indicates complete detachment, neutrality and deep peace; the eyes embody the sorrow of the world. The lower part of the face—the lips and chin—is just as I had seen it in my meditation with him. Complete detachment and supreme neutrality is the first stage of integral transformation.” Of course, these are not Mother's exact words, but they reflect more or less the essence of what She said.

  Champaklal Speaks

References from Mother's Agenda 1951-1960

Search term: Rameswaram

Mother's Agenda : October 16, 1963

X has left. I saw him twice (yesterday for the second time), and I wanted to wait till I had seen him the second time before telling you the story.

Here is what happened: I do my usual "bath of the Lord" and it

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is arranged that, after a time, Champaklal opens the door—which signals to me the end of the visit. So I looked at X, just to see (I had looked at him several times before, but there was nothing particular), I looked at him and saw in front of him a sort of mass of substance, not material but responsive to a mental formation, which means that mental thought and will can make this substance take different shapes—I know it (Mother makes a gesture of fingering the substance), it's very like the sort of substance mediums use for their apparitions (less material, more mental, but anyway the same kind). There was a sort of mass in front of him, which was hiding him; it wasn't luminous, not black either, but dark enough. So I looked at it, STARED at it to see what it was, and as I was staring, I saw that there was a will or an effort to give that mass of substance a shape. It was exactly in front of X's head and shoulders. And there was a will to give it a shape (gesture of molding). As I stared very carefully, it took the shape of Sri Aurobindo's head as it appears in newspapers and magazines (what I call the "popular" Sri Aurobindo, as he is shown in books), the substance took that form. Immediately I thought (ironic tone), "Oh, it's the popular form, that doesn't resemble him!" And instantly, the substance rearranged itself and took the form of Cartier-Bresson's Sri Aurobindo¹ (the three-quarter face photo, where he is seated in his armchair). That was better! (Mother holds back a chuckle) It wasn't yet quite good, but anyway it was better (although, mind you, it had neither light nor life: it was matter—a subtle matter, of course—put into shape by a mental will). So I began to wonder: "Whatever is this?! Does he want me to believe that Sri Aurobindo is in him, or what?" Because X's head and shoulders had completely disappeared, there was nothing left but that. And I thought (not a strong thought, just a reflection): "No, it's not very good, really not very lifelike!" (Mother laughs) Then there was a last attempt and it became very like the photo that was taken when he left his body (that photo which we stood on end and called "Meditation"), it was very like the photo, (in an ironic tone) a very good likeness. And it stayed. So I thought, "Oh yes! This is the photo."

Then I concentrated just a little and thought, "Let's see, now. Whom is he trying to delude?" And instantly, everything vanished. And I saw X, his head.

I had stared at that thing—it went on for more than ten minutes—

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I stared and stared at it, and with truly an extreme goodwill I tried to see if Sri Aurobindo's vibration was in it (the light wasn't, but I tried to see if the vibration was), but I didn't feel anything.

Nevertheless, there was a very strong WILL to make me believe it was Sri Aurobindo—I saw it, you understand.

It annoyed me a little.

At first I thought, "My goodness! Who does he take me for? (Laughing) A fool who can be made to believe that the moon is made of green cheese?" Then I decided I wouldn't say anything until he left: I wanted to wait till I saw him a second time. Then I made a very strong formation and I said to Sri Aurobindo, "If there was really anything of you in that, well, let it occur again next time." And yesterday, I kept watching all the time, attentively, very carefully—absolutely nothing happened.

I didn't like that very much.

You understand, I know those things, I have seen thousands of them! Only, as it happens, for more than half a century I have sensed the difference in a most sharp way. I think I told you already that when I returned here from Japan, there were difficulties: once, I was in danger and I called Sri Aurobindo; he appeared, and the danger went away²—he appeared, meaning, he came, something from him came, an EMANATION of him came, living, absolutely concrete. The next day (or rather later the same day), I told him my experience and how I saw him; that worried him (it was an unceasing danger, you see), and he very strongly thought that he should concentrate on me to protect me. And the next day, I saw him—but it was an image, a mental formation! I told him, "Yes, you came in a mental formation, it wasn't the same thing." Then he told me that this capacity of discernment is an extremely rare thing. But I always had it, even when I was small. It's a sensitiveness in the perception. And indeed I believe that very few people can sense the difference. So with X, my first impression was, "My goodness, to do this to me!... Well, really, I have some experience of the world, I can't be so easily made to believe that the moon is made of green cheese!"

And yesterday, it was all very peaceful: X was there all the time with nobody in front of him, not pretending anything. But the first time, as he expected some result, he stayed on for ten minutes—probably he was expecting some reaction (I never told him that Sri

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Aurobindo is with me all the time, that we talk to each other every night). Anyhow, he was probably expecting some enthusiasm on my part (!) There you are.

[Satprem cannot believe what Mother has just told him:] It was a will coming from him? It wasn't someone else who used that substance?

No. It was either he or his guru—his guru interferes in many things. And I saw his guru several times by his side—I wasn't positively sure it was X, but if it wasn't X, it was his guru, it can only be one or the other. And it was done DELIBERATELY, to make me think that Sri Aurobindo was there, in X, using X as a means of expression.

Very, very long ago, when I was still downstairs (not last year, the year before), one day... I don't remember the details, but I know he made a sort of cinema show during the meditation: he showed himself as this god, that god, this or that—there was a whole swarm of gods and beings who came and threw themselves onto him like this (Mother lays one hand flat on the other), and Sri Aurobindo was there too, among the crowd! I took it as a demonstration of his powers—I didn't attach any importance to it. Naturally, I saw what it was; none of those beings was actually there, it was only their image. But I didn't attach any importance to it because to me it was... (laughing) like someone giving me a show!

But this time...

It's the first time it happened, mind you, the first time he tried—spontaneously, I say he tried to delude me. I would be surprised if he wasn't conscious.

You know that for a long time he said, "I and the Mother, the Mother and I, are one." Of course, in the Scriptures too it's like that! But it was reported to me (I don't attach much importance to it because people twist everything), it was reported to me that he said several times, "It's the Mother speaking to you through me," and I talked nonsense! (Laughing) That's the trouble. If at least I said some very wise things...

That's serious.

I wouldn't call it "serious."

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I wouldn't call it serious because he may have done it with the best of intentions: not to deceive me, but to help me. But I found it so IGNORANT! That he should use such methods with me shows that he knows absolutely nothing of me.

It would succeed with any ordinary medium, or with a faker. A faker, someone insincere, would be immediately taken in, because in such cases IT IS SINCERITY THAT SAVES. Going by appearances it's very, very difficult to make out the difference. It is sincerity that saves (it's the same thing I said to Sujata³). I remember how Madame Théon, after I told her several of my experiences, said to me, "Nobody can deceive you because you are perfectly sincere" (occultly, I don't say outwardly: occultly). And it's true, it depends on the sincerity. Consequently, that X should attempt this shows he has a peculiar opinion of me!

But why all this? To what end?

I was told many things. He was AT LEAST tactless (he denied it afterwards, but it's true, I know it's true), he said it is he who would take my place when I go, when I leave my body.

Really!?!

Yes, I know he said so.

I find it incredible.

To me it's not an accusation, because I always take things for the best—it may be the expression of a great goodwill, but obviously an absolutely ignorant one. And then he has such a mania for prophecy! This time again (no one asked him anything), he said spontaneously that I would come downstairs next year, that I would resume my activities downstairs. So I looked (through what he said I looked at what he thought), and I saw that, for him, it didn't at all mean I took possession of a new Power, it was a return to the old things—but in my case, a return to the old things is folly!

Of course!

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You understand, that's what interests me; it's not that I want to find fault with him, but this is the proof that he has no true perception whatsoever of what it's all about.

He certainly has no understanding of what's taking place here, of your work, for sure; but I had rather the feeling of a goodwill.

Yes, he does have goodwill, but such an ignorant one!

He even said that he would be asked—he would be ASKED—to take my place. He added, "I can't say, because I am a free man"! (Mother laughs and laughs)

Anyway...

I wanted to tell you this because it's interesting to note it and keep it.

But I don't want him to know, because I take it for the best, as a goodwill, as if to show me that he is quite ready to help and support me: but all this in a mind that seems to me so childish! You see, the idea that I trust only Sri Aurobindo, and that if it's presented in the form of Sri Aurobindo, I'll accept! Things of that sort. I had such an impression that he thought he was dealing with a goose!

Mentally, I know. When I am with him, if I happen to listen to what he says for just two minutes, I get a headache, I can't bear it. I can stay with him only when I am above or outside, then it's quite all right. But if I listen to him mentally, I get a headache.

Yes, I told you, the day when I entered his mind, it was frightful!

I can't listen to him, but I can be with him without listening to him.

There you have it! (Mother laughs)

He clearly knows how to put mental substance into shape—but this handling of mental matter to give it a shape, everybody does it unknowingly, automatically; you only have to think a little strongly for it to be done. Only, people don't see it because they don't have the mental vision. And here, it was so funny [X's mental formation], because it responded so well (that's what made me think it was he who was doing it, not someone else), it responded so well to my immediate thought (and I didn't think strongly). I looked

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at the thing, and spontaneously, within myself, I thought, "Oh, no!..." Almost as if Sri Aurobindo were saying, "Oh, no! That's my popular portrait, it's no good!" Voilà.⁴

[X reportedly refers to Panditji]

  Mother's Agenda > October 16, 1963

References from Mother's Agenda 1963

April 22, 1963

April 25, 1963

April 29, 1963

References from Mother's Agenda 1964

August 29, 1964

September 23, 1964

September 30, 1964

Mother's Agenda : January 4, 1964

(Regarding the Tantric guru's visit)

...But there is a considerable difference between the real fact, that is, what this body [Mother's body] represents, and X's conception. He has always remained all the way down. This is what, in fact, had ruined his health for a time. And the odd thing is that every time he was ill and CONSENTED to inform me, he was instantly cured—he KNOWS this, but still his first instinct is always to turn to the gods with his ordinary puja.

It was the same thing with you—I saw that. He regards you like this (gesture of looking down on Satprem), and then, you're not a pundit (!), you haven't had the religious education of the country—he regards you as a beginner, he isn't at all conscious of where your mind is, of where your mind can reach. I told him, but even that he doesn't quite understand. But once, I saw (it was at the time when I was giving him meditations downstairs), he had made a remark that was quite preposterous on the fact that people here meditated with eyes closed and that I, too, had my eyes closed when I meditated. It was reported to me. That was long ago, years ago. He was going to come and see me the next morning, so I said, "Wait, my friend, I'll show you!" And the next day, I meditated with my eyes open (Mother laughs)—the poor man! When he went downstairs, he said, "Mother meditated with her eyes open, she was like a lion!"

That's it, you understand, there's a gap.

He is a very good man, but very ignorant—it seems funny to say that about a pundit, a great pundit who knows Sanskrit better than

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the head of the Maths [monasteries] of the South, but I say that he lacks this: the opening up above. He has a connection in a straight line (gesture tapering off to a point above), and indeed it's very high up, but it's a pinpoint—a sharp point that gives him an experience which is his ALONE: he cannot pass it on to others. You understand, it isn't an immensity rising upward: it's a pinpoint.

Last time, when he came to meditate, just before he came upstairs, all of a sudden I felt the Lord coming (He has a particular way of becoming concrete when He wants me to do something), and He became concrete with the will that I should take advantage of this man's goodwill to widen his consciousness. It was very clear. And He became concrete with a Power, you know, one of those overwhelming Powers... and a wonderful Love. It came like that, and he was caught in the Movement—what he was conscious of, I cannot say. But when he left the room, he said he had had an experience. And this time, he was quite sincere, spontaneous, natural, not trying to... to make a show.² It was very good.

No, you might have gained something [with X], but it's a something you would have found quite small; if you had felt it, you would have thought, "Oh, really, that was it!?"

(silence)

  Mother's Agenda > January 4, 1964

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