Santosh Gupta's recollections of her coming to the Ashram, inner contact with The Mother, her own sadhana & experiences.
1-March-2014
Narad: Today is the first day of March 2014—the first day of spring in Russia—and we are honoured to have Santosh with us, to hear from her own lips many of her experiences. Santosh, welcome. How did you first hear about Mother and Sri Aurobindo?
As far as I remember, I was in the sixth class when I started reading their literature. There were some books in our house, and even at that age I never felt that I didn’t understand anything. It was all as if it were known to me before. That was my experience in the sixth class, when I was about twelve years old.
Then I came to the eighth class, and Sri Aurobindo left his body in 1950. I got the news at school itself. I still remember that day: I went into a corner and wept bitterly, not knowing what had happened to me. I kept telling myself, “There was only one place in the world where I could go now. Where will I go?”
Narad: Where were you going to school at that time?
That was in Ambala Cantt, Haryana.
Narad: So you were twelve years old when you heard that Sri Aurobindo had left his body.
Yes, and I cried bitterly—where will I go now? There was only one place in the world where I thought of going. I didn’t know about Mother at that time. Although I had read Her books, I thought that after His leaving there would probably be no ashram, no arrangement where one could go. So I cried; anyhow, time passed, and I did my matriculation.
After I passed my intermediate, it so happened that my elder sister was at a centre of Mother and Sri Aurobindo. I went there in my holidays, and from there the manager of that centre was coming to Pondy, so I came along with him. I had an urge inside that I had to go.
Narad: What year was this?
Early fifties—about ’52, maybe ’53. But the first time I actually came here was in ’55.
At that time Mother’s permission was necessary for anyone who wanted darshan. It was granted, and I came without telling my father that I was leaving; while boarding the train I just posted a postcard saying I was going. He was shocked, naturally—a young girl! But I had a deep urge to see Mother and to come to the Ashram.
I can tell you about my first meeting with Mother. Even now it is thrilling for me, and I still remember with gratitude what She gave me at that time.
When we arrived, we had the balcony darshan in the morning, and then in the evening, face to face, at the playground. Somebody gave me flowers: “When you go, you can do pranam today; take this flower.” I didn’t know anything—how to bow down, or even how to offer flowers. I kept them in my pocket and went to Mother, and when I wanted to give them I just took them out. She was smiling. It was not the proper way, of course, but She didn’t say anything; She taught me how to give and how to receive. She held out Her gown like this, you know, and I had to give it like this. And because I was constantly looking at Her, I didn’t even bow down.
When I left, there was a line behind me. I had gone two or three steps ahead when I felt as if somebody had pulled me by a rope. I turned around, and it was She, looking at me—She had [pulled] me with Her look. I went back, and She held both my hands and began to gaze at me. I don’t know how much time passed; She awakened my soul within, and I could see my real mother in front of me after many, many births. That was my first meeting with the Mother.
Narad: Then you went upstairs to have an interview with Her.
I talked very little with Mother, because she always gave me everything from within. There was very little correspondence or talk with Her, but whenever I went to Her, or in dreams, or when I prayed or meditated, I always got the answers from within. That is why, even after Her withdrawal, I don’t feel Her physical absence. She is with me every moment—a constant presence, a constant grace, a constant protection. In such a long span of life, seventy-five years, I have never felt lonely, never helpless, never unprotected.
Even in my recent operations—I have had six operations—I had a unique experience with each one, of how She was with me. So much so that after my brain operation the doctor, who knew nothing about the Ashram or about me when we first met, said, “It was not I who performed this operation; somebody made me do it.” Three doctors were involved, and they still come here; they are in contact and have started reading. The senior-most doctor said to me, “You have changed the course of my life. It was not you who was standing before us; it was Mother who was standing. We saw Mother in you.” She gives you not only a feeling, not only a perception, but a clear experience that She is with us.
Narad: You were roughly seventeen when you first came to the Ashram. When did you settle here?
I settled in 1958, at the age of twenty. Before that, of course, I was quite sure about myself from within, and about my decision too, but I had to reply to my parents, who were pressing me to come back. I wanted to be able to say something categorical to them once and for all, so I asked Mother.
We used to go to Mother daily in the playground. I didn’t know about envelopes or how to give a letter; I just wrote a single line on a slip of paper: “What particular mission have you assigned for me, Mother? Will you tell me?” She read it in front of me and nodded Her head like that, to go on. I thought perhaps She didn’t want to answer, or that She might answer afterwards. The next day I waited again; no reply—She looked at me as usual. The third day also passed, and then I forgot about it, thinking She probably didn’t want to give an answer.
On the fourth day, unexpectedly, She caught hold of my hands. “You know English?” I had passed my intermediate by then. I said, “Yes, Mother.” Then, holding my hands, holding me with Her eyes, She said very emphatically: “The only mission in your life is to serve the Divine.” That was all. She blessed me, and I understood that this was the final answer for me, so I could reply to my parents.
And when I was leaving, I prayed to Her—not with words—“Call me back soon.” She understood without my telling Her, and She called me within a year. The next year, I stayed on.
Narad: And your parents were accepting?
In the beginning, yes; and afterwards they came to visit as well. My father said, “Now that I have seen the place, I have no worries. The only thing is that we cannot come so far to see you often, but at least I am not worried now.” They were quite impressed with Mother too.
Then my father put a question to me. “You are so young”—I was only twenty—“you have accepted Mother, that is all right; you adore Her, that is all right; but what after Mother?” In Indian families, first the father, then the husband, then the son—somebody is there to look after a woman, isn’t it? That is how life runs. “But now that you don’t want to marry, what do you think of your future?”
I said to my father, “It is all right that you think in those terms, but as you know, we are not going to marry; even if we did not stay there, we are not going to marry. What will happen if you are not there? Have you ever thought of that? And we have accepted Mother as God in the form of God through our own experience, not because anybody told us so. That was the most decisive point for us. We always went by our own feeling, not by anybody’s saying. And you are worried, though everyone is aware that we regard Her as God: what will happen then?“
Then, at that young age and without much experience, I replied, “Mother is like the air flowing everywhere. You cannot catch that air in a glass or a bottle and say, ‘Only this is Mother, nowhere else.’ We must take Mother, God, in that way. She is ever present, She is everywhere; even if She leaves physically, She is not away from us.” Then he said, “Now I am assured that you have chosen the right path, in the right way.”
Narad: You told me you had some special remembrances and experiences with Mother. Can you share any of those with us?
The first was when I asked Mother about the mission of my life. As I told you, She took three days to answer. In those three days, in my room, I could see Mother all the time, always around me—looking at me, searching me from everywhere, even from within the body! She was probing; I could feel it, and it was a very delightful thing. And spontaneously, from within, there came the line of a Mirabai bhajan: “Mhane chakar rakho ji“—keep me as Your slave. That was the line that came out, and that is exactly what She replied after three days. Isn’t that an experience of love?
In the same way She replied, “Serve the Divine.” So more and more I was assured that I was right in what I was choosing, what I was doing, what I was deciding.
Narad: What work did Mother give you in the Ashram?
When I sent my photograph with the request for permission to stay here, Ravindra-ji told me that on seeing the photograph Mother had said, “From the photograph She looks like a teacher. But don’t give her teaching work; give her some more useful work”—as if teaching were not so useful! Naturally, all the teachers who had been asking for me as a Hindi teacher were disappointed. Then Ravindra-ji, with Mother’s permission and sanction, placed me in the Ashram Press, in the Hindi section.
I can point this out to you: when She said “more useful work”, I am realising only now, after fifty-five years, why She said so. At that time I was an apprentice, learning all the work of proofreading and printing books. Now I am in charge of that section, and I have learnt everything. I also work independently now: translation along with proofreading, revising earlier translations, and some independent translation as well. It has become so useful that I still remember Her with gratitude for the work She gave me. This work sustained me through all the illness of these five years, in which I have undergone five operations. After the brain operation, in these five years, I have finished translating fifteen volumes of Mother’s works.
Arvind: In which language?
In Hindi. That is my joy—it is with joy that I do it, and it is what She has made of me. Every moment with Mother is memorable: what we spend, what we breathe, what we say, what we do—all of it was full of Her. That is what I can say.
Narad: Santosh, not many people have spoken to us about a dear friend of mine and yours, Ambu. Could you tell us some stories about him?
Before I came to stay here I visited two times, and I used to attend his Savitri classes, which he took for visitors. As I told you, this literature was never foreign to me; I always understood each and every word of Mother and Sri Aurobindo, and Ambu-bhai noticed that in his classes. He inspired me, I liked him very much, and I received his blessings many times.
After I settled here I worked with him too. After he returned from his world tour, I typed his letters to his English and American friends, and I learnt much from that—outwardly, at least, from what he used to write. Later I studied Savitri with him personally as well: when he was sick and couldn’t take classes, I used to go to him at night and study for half an hour. He took such pains over individuals.
But what I received from him, above all, was this: he had a power like the one Mother used to give us through Her eyes. Whenever I went to him, he awakened that aspiration in me. The most wonderful thing was that he did it silently, without telling you, without letting you know that he was doing anything. He cured me, too, many times, whenever I told him of an illness. He had that power, but he never showed it and never claimed it, and he always turned us towards Mother, not towards himself. Many people have the ego of “I am something”; I felt and knew that he was not for that.
When he was leaving on his world tour for the first time, I went to him for pranam, to say goodbye, and for the first time he said, “Sadhana mein pragati karo“—progress in your sadhana. That was his blessing. He loved me very much; from him I received what one receives from a guardian, a parent and a friend. I lived with him for hardly seven years: I came in ’58 and he left his body in ’65. Six months before he left, I had a feeling that he was withdrawing. Even so, that inner relationship is a very beautiful thing: you don’t feel the pang or the sorrow of separation; you see the person on another level—not only memories, not only guidance, but a constant presence with you, as we had with Mother and Sri Aurobindo. My reverence for him has never left. It is not a sorrowful reverence; whenever I remember him, it is very, very joyful.
He also had the power to cure. Once, when he came to our place, my eldest brother came to receive him at the station. My brother had asthma at that time and didn’t say anything; they came home, chatted and had dinner. But Ambu-bhai was observing that my brother was in trouble, and as was his way, he silently did whatever he wanted to do. At night, as my brother was going to sleep, he felt that the asthma was absolutely gone; he couldn’t believe it. But believe me, in his whole lifetime he never had a second attack. That was Ambu-bhai.
Narad: I remember especially how joyous Ambu was.
Yes, always bubbling, always bubbling.
Narad: I’d like to ask you about the balcony darshans. You must have gone to them for so many years. Can you say a little about that?
That is a very nice experience, if you are not getting late. As I told you, in our childhood, in our family, we never had worship or rituals or anything like that; we never knew anything. Whatever I had, whatever I did, whatever I achieved was all from within and from Mother; She showed me everything.
As for the balcony darshan, I used to sleep late at night, because Mother had given me eight hours of work and I was tired; I would reach home at eleven o’clock. I had no clock when I came here, but I used to tell Her, “Wake me up before balcony darshan.” I would go to sleep, and She would come at six o’clock and wake me up. Can you imagine how much work She had to do for us? After getting up I would just wash and rush. I never missed balcony darshan. I used to stand just below the balcony, in front of Her eyes, with as much devotion in my heart as I could. One day, as She looked down at me from above, I felt as if a lotus in my heart had started opening. That was my experience at that time. And after that, all the devotion, all the adoration…
After the balcony darshan I used to come to the meditation hall—absolutely daily. She taught me how to meditate; after that I couldn’t get up, so natural and spontaneous was it. One day She also came in a dream. I had been praying to Her, asking how to feel peace, how to have the descent of peace. In the dream I was sitting, and She put Her head on my head, upside-down like this, so that the two heads met. And She drilled through my head, going at least six inches deep inside. It was such a nice experience, full of bliss. I thought I would write to Her about what had happened, but when I came to the balcony She gave me such a recognition, such a smile, that I knew She knew everything. After that, when I came to the meditation hall, for half an hour it was as if a nice bird [were sitting] on my head. I could feel the descent of peace that day; that day I knew what the descent of peace is.
In the balcony She used to give, within ten minutes, to thousands of people, each what he wanted. Isn’t that a miracle? Is it possible for a human being—just by seeing, and that too from a distance, all together at a time, to everybody according to his need? And that is not physical; it is something more—the responsibility of a Guru: to awaken a person from within. That was Her work. Can we not accept Her as God? We are bound to. She has seen our lives.
I will relate another experience. Some people from Golconde approached Mother, asking whether I could do gate duty for one hour. I was new, so everybody was trying to take me for work. They wanted me, after the balcony darshan, from six-thirty to seven-thirty, to go and sit at the gate. Mother didn’t ask me physically—nobody asked me physically—but She came in my dream. I was standing in the Ashram itself, near the first staircase opposite the Samadhi, when She held me like a friend and, looking at me, said, “Would you like to work in Golconde?” I said spontaneously, “No, Mother—not with the present work.” I was already fully busy the whole day. She smiled and said, “Oh, yes, yes, okay,” patted me, and left.
She gave Her reply to the people who wanted me without telling me anything, from any side. After a few days I heard that it had actually happened: they had approached Mother, and She had replied, “No, She won’t; it is her time for meditation.” That is what matters to me, because I had already seen it in the dream. One could say that She was interested not in our big experiences or in the big part of our sadhana, but in every detail of each of us. She knew everything without our telling Her or asking Her anything physically; She would reply on my behalf.
So whatever I got in my life, I got from within, directly from Her—no interviews, no letters; just blessings, birthday blessings, going to Her and doing pranam—because I always got the answer without having to ask personally.
Narad: You and I were both here when Mother left Her body. Can you speak about that day?
That would bring tears to my eyes. Again, She gave me something wonderful which upheld and sustained me.
Her body was laid on the couch in the meditation hall—probably all of you know that. We could go for darshan any number of times, whenever we felt like joining the line. For three days it continued like that; we didn’t even go home, we sat there itself—that is another story. But one thing I can tell you: whenever I went for darshan, I saw Mother in different postures. Nobody will believe this. Sometimes Her face was turned this side, sometimes that side, sometimes straight. All those three days I saw Her in different positions, so it was not easy for me to believe that She had left.
When they were bringing Her in the coffin, I felt from within that I should stop them. Anyway, I did nothing; I went on with open eyes, seeing Her, feeling Her. And then I saw Her golden, radiant body. It was nothing else—no blood, nothing else; even all the veins were full of light, and it was flowing like that. I have seen that golden body of the Mother. It had its warmth and its peace, a tremendous, indescribable peace. Such was the impact of seeing that body alone that when I got up after all the ceremony, I thought I too had been transformed.
Then I asked Her, “When you have achieved so much, when you have done so much, why did you leave? What was the necessity of leaving the body when you could transform it so much?” And She said, “It was not enough; something more was necessary. I still have to make a bridge.” With that She gave me inner solace.
Most probably a similar experience happened to Madhav-ji as well. He wrote afterwards along the same lines, so I could corroborate my experience with that. It is not anybody’s imagination.
Narad: Did you know him [Madhav-ji] well also?
Not well, but I went through him to Mother when I approached to stay here. There was that secretarial contact, but nothing otherwise. I did respect him and revere him.
Narad: Nolini?
Not much. I had a great deal of contact with Ambu-bhai, a little with Amrita-da, and with Pavitra-da not much, but sometimes he used to talk. From Pavitra-da we could always feel that he was such a direct channel from Mother that he would never say anything mixed with his own. He conveyed everything as if Mother Herself were telling you—that is the most important thing; you could feel it from his eyes and from his words. And if you were a little troubled or restless, or had some problem, you got solace from him. That is all the contact I had with him. Otherwise, all the senior sadhaks and members are our guru-bhais and respectable children of Mother.
Narad: One last question about the Ashram: the atmosphere here in those early days.
I am not so early, but I am lucky to have seen and felt both phases of the Ashram. That is again my personal feeling. When I came for the first time in ’55, I was only seventeen, and what I could feel at that time was that Mother had full control of everything in Her own hands. Everything was centralised; She had control of each and every detail—from the finances, the management and the running of the Ashram to Her other responsibilities and Her sadhana.
But when I came in ’57, in those two years I could feel the difference. She had handed the management over to different persons; the central thing was no longer there—She had distributed it. I could feel this very clearly. Naturally, along with that, some differences will be there, outwardly, from the management point of view. But this much I can say: I never felt a difference in the basic inner thing, if you are sincere and follow it yourself. The atmosphere may be a little diluted; you may find it a little more difficult to concentrate than before; but it is not gone. The Ashram has not changed on those lines, and it will remain so, because Mother and Sri Aurobindo did so much sadhana for us and established the consciousness so firmly that nobody can tarnish it, in spite of all this present drama.
Whenever I am near the Samadhi, I really feel, sometimes, that the Samadhi is like a yajna, with flames going up and up and up. Whoever comes, including ourselves, whatever we throw into it like an ahuti, Sri Aurobindo is there to burn it up and exhaust it. He is still continually exhausting our errors, our stumbling, our faults—everything—and then he takes us up. This is my feeling.
Narad: I don’t think we have anything to say after that, except perhaps a few words from you for young people who are seeking—who have not met Mother, who have perhaps just begun reading Sri Aurobindo and Mother.
If they had not met Mother, they couldn’t have come here. Who has brought them here? Not you and I. The inner soul of everybody—the moment it is awakened by anything, by any influence, any word, any reading, any scripture, any following—whoever is awakened will know what he has come for, where he has to go, and what he has to do. Nobody comes here just like that. He may not be able to stay—that is another thing; he may not be very clear about his future, his aim, or himself in the beginning—that can happen. But nobody comes here just by chance; no, I don’t think so.
I never lose hope when I see little children at the Samadhi, and sometimes I see their feelings in their eyes. Some children cry on entering the Ashram, and some drag their parents inside and don’t want to go out. What is this? Who teaches them? Who asks them? So I am not in despair about the younger generation. It is Her work, God’s work. When She has created it, She will take care of each one of us. One day everybody has to go on this path, today or tomorrow; each is destined to follow it. And He has given such diversity that we cannot predict His ways.
Arvind: When you went to Mother on your birthdays, several times—going to Mother on your birthdays and Mother giving you a card—can you speak about that?
Everything is too personal, and I don’t object to sharing it, but I don’t want you to feel that I am only talking about myself. What I want to tell is how Mother used to work on us; that is my main purpose in telling all these things. As you ask about my birthdays: yes, it was many times, every year, as long as She was seeing people on their birthdays.
Just one incident, which may sound like a story but was very deep for me. I had gone to Her on earlier birthdays too, but this was the first time in the interview room, after 1963. I wanted to offer a garland of jasmine, but I had heard that nowadays Mother doesn’t wear them. Still, I had the wish to put it around Her neck, so, hearing that, I nevertheless took the garland and gave it to Her. She was a little nonplussed. She used to keep everybody’s garland, whoever brought one, on the arm of Her chair, rolled like this. So She was going to put my garland on the arm of the chair, but somehow it didn’t go there.
I had taken two new photographs of Mother and Sri Aurobindo, since I hadn’t had any before, so that I could take them from Her hand with Her blessing and keep them framed. They are still in my room. Those photographs were in Her lap, like this, and the garland, instead of going to the arm of the chair, went onto the photographs. It sat nicely on Her robe. She looked at me and smiled so mischievously that I knew She knew what was in my mind and had done it. She didn’t show that She had done it consciously, but the way She smiled made me feel: “Yes, I knew what you wanted.”
Arvind: Many people used to ask questions of Mother whenever they faced a problem. In your case, you always got the answer from within?
Most of the time, most of the time.
Arvind: So you never felt like asking Mother?
No, no; She always answered me. If I went to Her personally, even then She answered without my telling Her anything; and on days when we were not going regularly, She came in a dream.
So much so that I used to have very severe headaches when I joined the Ashram. I was not in the habit of working eight or ten hours, and I had to walk a long distance to the Press, so I always used to vomit in the afternoon before going; it troubled me so much. I prayed to Her: “What is this? I want to serve you, and this doesn’t allow me to serve you well.” Thinking and praying like that, after lunch I came home, spread my mat and lay down on it. Immediately after I closed my eyes, I felt that somebody had entered the room, but I didn’t open my eyes. I thought, “Whoever comes at this hour, let them go; I won’t open.” Then I felt that She came from the door up to my mat and sat near my head, and put Her hand on my head. Even then, although I felt that hand, that touch, so nice, I didn’t open my eyes.
Arvind: So it was like a physical touch?
Yes, absolutely—I felt as if somebody pressed a hand on my forehead like this, and that touch felt wonderful. But I didn’t open my eyes. I prayed once more for that hand once more, and She pressed again. Then She went around my mat, making a full round of it, and went out. I felt all this without opening my eyes. I slept, and when I got up the headache was gone; after that it didn’t trouble me like that anymore.
Narad: One last question, because we have kept you for a long time. Did you ever see Sri Aurobindo in your dreams?
No, no—not in the way I saw Mother. But in the inner experience I get his presence, and at times his answers too. I can feel him. It is just not in such a concrete way that I can describe it now.
Narad: Santosh, Mother has blessed us by your coming.
Thank you. It is nice to remember Her, to live those moments, to be with Her.
Arvind: I want to ask about the transformation of the body, the Superman, the coming of the new race. Do you feel that Mother is working everywhere in the world, that new things are coming up and changes are happening?
Certainly, certainly. I feel it, but otherwise too, if you see—I have this article from Russia. Three people show that you can recreate your cells. The method came directly from within; they experimented on themselves, and now they have generalised it and found ways by which we can do it. And in it they say that a very powerful force is entering the planet. They are not spiritual yogis; they are scientists and doctors. They are feeling that—so what about us? We can say it only through our feelings, but they are doing something physically; they are proving something physically. Otherwise also, personally, I am very, very sure.
Arvind: How many years will it take? When will it happen?
Arvind, years are very relative; our conception of time is very limited. These bigger things, these things of the cosmos, should be taken in that perspective. One thinks they should be finished in a year or two—no. It may take some hundred years. But certainly the speed of Nature has been expedited, much more than people can even think. That much is sure.
For us, it is now open; let it work in us. Just pray, nothing else. She has made things so simple—that is what I feel now—even for the physical body, our own body. It will not be a [complete] transformation, you know. But we can still cure so many things just by opening. She has made it very easy: you are not to do anything; you just allow [Her] to pass.
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