Mother’s Agenda 1965

May 29, 1965

(Regarding X's visit)

...He has become more sober, he doesn't speak so much anymore. You know he had made a prediction about M.'s wife? What was her name?... (Names... it's something rather odd: when people have left their body, their name goes away, I can no longer remember it—it's cut off, there is a break; I have to stop and let a sort of material memory come back, but in my consciousness it's cut off, there isn't any name anymore: the name has gone away along with the body—which is quite as it should be, of course.) He had told her, "Oh, you will live another ten years."—The next month, she left. So I think it threw some cold water on him, because obviously people attach a great importance to those things. At any rate, he shouldn't have told her, because it interrupted all my work—all my work was to make her unite with her soul before she went, so that all that could be taken along in the spiritual life would be taken along. And I was working at it, but then when the other one told her she was going to live ten years, naturally she wasn't in a hurry anymore! I lost at least ten days because of that. And she left the day after the contact was made

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—she found her soul, she became quiet, very quiet... and the next day she was gone.

I haven't lost hope that X might be progressive. If he is progressive, all will be well. Maybe in two or three years he will be a new man with a new consciousness? The stuff is good.

I saw the other day—it was very interesting, the very day he was on his way here (I wasn't thinking of him—I never "think" of people), suddenly I saw all that the knowledge of the pundits and those who profess to follow a spiritual life (the whole class of sannyasins, pundits, purohits,¹ etc.), all that that represents. (I am not referring to religions in other countries: it's specific to India.) And they are people who have a knowledge, a mental knowledge, of course, but very precise and very exact, of the movements in relation to the Overmind: all the gods and godheads and their ways of being and the relationships between men and gods; and they have tried to organize and formulate the relationships men have with gods so that, as was said in the past, men would not be "the cattle of the gods"—they have tried to change the human position with regard to deities. It's interesting, it's a whole interesting field... which to me does not represent the true thing. They on their part think that is spiritual life—it's not spiritual life, but it is a higher mental region which borders on the Overmind, which even enters into the Overmind, and which is completely organized; it's a sort of "legislation" of the relationships between men and gods. From that point of view, it's interesting.

I saw that very clearly: the place it has in the universal organization. And if it's in its place, then it's quite all right—when a thing is in its place it becomes very good.

And when X came, they took him to Auroville,² and there is there a small Ganesh temple that was bought along with the land, on condition that the small temple be respected and people be allowed to come and offer prayers if they want to. They showed him the temple, he was very glad, then they asked him what should be done for the rites—"Oh, Ganesh will look after that, don't worry!" (Mother laughs) He said that very nicely.

(Soon afterwards. The context in which Mother made the following remark has been forgotten.)

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It seems Ramakrishna told Vivekananda, "You can see the Lord just as you see me and hear His voice just as you hear my voice." Some people took this as a declaration that the Lord was on earth in the flesh (!) I said, "No, that's not it! What he meant is that if you enter the true consciousness, you can hear Him—I say, much more clearly than you hear physically and see Him much more clearly than you see physically."—"Oh, that..." Immediately their eyes open wide, it becomes something unreal!

Then Mother prepares the next aphorism:

110—To see the composition of the sun or the lines of Mars is doubtless a great achievement; but when thou hast the instrument that can show thee a man's soul as thou seest a picture, then thou wilt smile at the wonders of physical Science as the playthings of babies.

It's the continuation of what we were saying about those who want to "see."

Do the wonders of physical science make you smile?

The wonders are all very well, it's their business (!) But it's their overweening self-assurance that makes me smile. They think they know. They think they have the key, that's what makes one smile. It makes one smile. They think that with all that they have learned they are the masters of Nature—it's childish. There will always be something that eludes them as long as they aren't in contact with the creative Force and the creative Will.

It's an experiment that can be done very easily: a scientist may explain all the phenomena before our eyes, he may even use physical forces and make them do whatever he likes (they have obtained amazing results from the material point of view), but if you just ask them this question, this simple question, "What is death?", in reality, they have no idea. They will describe the phenomenon as it occurs materially, but... if they are sincere, they are compelled to say that it doesn't explain anything.

There always comes a point when it no longer explains anything. Because to know... to know is to have power.

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(silence)

Ultimately, what materialistic thought finds easiest to admit is the fact that they cannot foresee. They foresee many things, but the course of world events is beyond their predictions. I think this is the only thing they can admit: there is a gray area, an area of the unpredictable that eludes all their calculations.

I have never spoken to the typical scientist having the most modern science, so I am not entirely sure, I don't know to what extent they admit the unpredictable or the incalculable.

What Sri Aurobindo means, I think, is that when you are in communion with the soul and have the soul's knowledge, that knowledge is so much more wonderful than material knowledge that you almost smile with disdain. I don't think he means that the knowledge of the soul makes you know things of material life that science can't teach you.

The only point (I don't know if science has solved it) is the unpredictability of the future. But maybe they say that's because they haven't yet reached the perfection of their instruments and methods! For instance, maybe they think that just when man appeared on the earth, if there had been the instruments they now have, they would have been able to foresee the transformation from animal to man, or the appearance of man as a result of "something" in the animal—I am not aware (Mother smiles) of their most modern pretensions. In that case, they should be able to measure or perceive the difference in the atmosphere now, with the intrusion of "something" that wasn't there—because that still belongs to the material field.³ But I don't think that's what Sri Aurobindo meant; I think he meant that the world of the soul and the inner realities are so much more wonderful than the physical realities that all the physical "wonders" make you smile—it's rather that.

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But the key you speak of, that key they don't have, is it not precisely the soul? A power of the soul over Matter, a power to change Matter—to work physical wonders, too. Does the soul have that power?

It has that power and it uses it CONSTANTLY, but the human consciousness is unaware of it! And the great difference is that the human consciousness becomes aware, but it becomes aware of something that's ALWAYS there! And which the others deny because they aren't aware of it.

For instance, I've had the opportunity of studying this: For me, circumstances, characters, all events and all beings move about according to certain "laws," if I may say so, which aren't rigid, but which I perceive and because of which I can see: "This will lead to that, and that will lead there, and this person being like that, such-and-such a thing is going to happen to him, and..." It's growing increasingly precise. I could, if it were necessary, make predictions based on that. But the relation of cause and effect in that domain is, for me, absolutely obvious and corroborated by facts. While for them, who do not have that vision and that consciousness of the soul, as Sri Aurobindo says, circumstances unfold according to other, superficial laws, which they consider to be the natural consequences of things; quite superficial laws that do not stand up to a deeper analysis, but they don't have the inner capacity, so that doesn't bother them, they find it obvious.

I mean that this inner knowledge doesn't have the power to convince them, that's an experience I have almost every day. So that when, concerning some event or other, I see, "Oh, but it's perfectly, perfectly obvious (for me): I saw the Lord's Force act there, I saw such-and-such a thing happen, and so, quite naturally, this is what must take place," for me, it's as obvious as could be, but I don't tell what I know, because it doesn't correspond to anything in their experience, so to them it's raving or pretension. Which means that when you haven't had the experience yourself, another's experience isn't convincing, it cannot convince you.

The power isn't so much of acting on Matter—that's something happening CONSTANTLY—but... unless hypnotic means are used (and they are worthless, they don't lead anywhere), the difficulty is to open the understanding (gesture of breaking free at the top of the head), that's what is so difficult.... The thing which you haven't experienced is nonexistent.

Even if in front of them a kind of miracle takes place, they will

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find a material explanation for it; to them, it won't be a miracle in the sense of the intervention of a force and power different from material forces and powers. They will find their own material explanation for it, it won't be convincing.

You can understand only if you have yourself touched that domain in your experience.

And you see very clearly—very clearly: it's insofar as something is awakened that there is the possibility of an understanding. This is the solid ground, it's the base.

All in all, the question may not be so much a "transformation of Matter" as of becoming conscious of the true unfolding.

That's precisely what I mean. The transformation can take place up to a point without your even being conscious of it!

You see, it is said that there is now a great difference, that when man came, the animal didn't have the means of taking notice; well, I say it's exactly the same thing: in spite of all that man has realized, man doesn't have the means; certain things may happen, but he will know they did only much later, when "something" in him is sufficiently developed to enable him to take notice.

Even with scientific development taken to its utmost, to the point where one really feels there is almost no difference left, when, for instance, they reach the oneness of substance and there seems to remain just an almost insensible or imperceptible passage from one condition to the other [the material to the spiritual], well, no, it's not like that! In order to perceive that sort of identity, you must carry already in yourself the experience of the OTHER THING; otherwise you cannot.

And precisely because they have acquired the capacity to "explain," they explain for themselves the inner phenomena, so that they remain in their negation of inner phenomena: they say they are like extensions of what they have studied.

Only, owing to man's very constitution (because there is so to speak no human being who doesn't have at least a reflection or a hint or a beginning of relationship with his subtle, inner being, his "soul"), owing to that, there is always a flaw in their negation; but they consider it a weakness—and it's their only strength!

(silence)

It is really when you have the experience—the experience and

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knowledge and identity with the higher forces—that you see the relativity of external knowledge; but before that, no, you cannot see, you deny the other realities.

I think this is what Sri Aurobindo meant; it's only once the other consciousness is developed that the scientist will smile; he will say, "Yes, this is all very nice, but..."

Basically, one cannot lead to the other. Except through a phenomenon of grace; if there is inwardly an absolute sincerity enabling the scientist to see, to have the foreknowledge, the perception of the point at which things elude him, then that may lead him to the other state of consciousness, but NOT THROUGH HIS METHODS. There must be... something must give in—something must give in and accept the new methods, the new perceptions, the new vibrations, the new state of soul.

Then it's an individual question. It isn't a question of class or category: it's the scientist who becomes ready to be... something else.

(silence)

We can only state an assertion: all that you know, however beautiful it may be, is nothing in comparison to what you can know if you are able to use the other methods.

There.

(silence)

That has been the object of my work all these last few days: how to get at that refusal to know?... It has been there for a long time. And it's the sequel to what Sri Aurobindo said in one of his letters: he says that India, with its methods, has done much more for spiritual life than Europe with all her doubts and questions.⁴ That's exactly the point. It's a kind of refusal—a refusal to accept

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a certain method of knowing that isn't the purely material method, and a negation of the experience, of the reality of the experience—how can they be convinced of it?... And then, there is Kali's method, which is to give a sound thrashing. But... it's a lot of damage for little result, if you ask me.

No, it is still a big problem.

It seems that the only method capable of overcoming all resistances is the method of Love; but in fact, the adverse forces have perverted it in such a way that a large quantity of sincere people, of sincere seekers, seem to be armor-plated against this method, because of its distortion. That's the difficulty. That's why it takes time. Anyway...

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