On Education

11 November 1967

A Conversation with five teachers of the Centre of Education.

So?

A: The reply you gave to B's recent letter¹ has been interpreted in two different ways.

Some lay emphasis on the first sentence which says, "It would be infinitely preferable that the division should disappear immediately," and think that we should try to do away with this division at once, right down to the practical level, by adopting a single organisation for the whole school, that is, either a generalisation of the existing free-progress classes or a compromise.

The others think that we should first clear up the psychological differences and spread the spirit of free progress. On the basis of the second part of your reply, they think that a period of transition is needed for the classes that have followed the traditional pattern so far, and then we would decide what to do.

First of all, before I reply, I would like to know exactly, in a very, very practical and material way, what the difference is.

This is what I think: in the free-progress system, there are no classes with all the students sitting down, with the teacher on his dais lecturing the whole time; there are students sitting down here and there, at their tables. They do the work they want to do and the teacher is simply there, anywhere, either in a room or in a special place; they go to him and ask him questions. This is how I understand it, quite...

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A: That's exactly how it is, Mother.

So now, in order to continue the old system, all the students would have to go on sitting in a row, with the teacher sitting on his dais, that is, a completely ridiculous situation. I remember very well when I used to go to the Playground, I was glad when I could sit with everyone around me and we were free.... But a table, a dais, the students tied to... I am speaking very materially, not at all from the psychological point of view; so if that changes, it will already be a great improvement.

Not all the students coming in, like that, almost in a line, and then sitting down, each one in his place, and then the teacher coming and sitting down.... Then, if they are well-mannered, all the students stand up (laughter), the teacher sits down and begins his lecture. The students think about anything whatever, all their thoughts wander off in every direction and they pay attention if they feel like it. Well, that is a waste of time, that's all.

That is very, very, very material and practical; it can change at once. The teacher can choose either a corner or a place or a little room—I don't know what, it's all the same to me—any place where the students can come and ask for his guidance, either in the room or in a room nearby. He can busy himself in an interesting way, preparing the answers he will give to his students, not thinking about something else.

That can be done at once, eh?

Now, it is not necessary that they should all call themselves by the same name. That is where... There is, in man, a kind of spirit of—ah! we can give it a polite name—well, a sheep-like spirit.... All the time they need... they need someone to lead them.

The student should come to school not like someone going to his daily grind because he cannot avoid it, but because it would be possible for him to do something interesting. The teacher should not be in school, come to school with the idea that for half an hour or three-quarters of an hour he is going to recite something which he has more or less well prepared and

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which is boring even for him, and that therefore he cannot amuse the students, but instead to try to come into contact mentally—and if possible more deeply—with a number of little developing individualities who, we hope, have some curiosity about things, and in order to be able to satisfy this curiosity. So he himself must be aware, very modestly, that he does not know enough and that he has a lot to learn; but not to learn from books—by trying to understand life.

So there you have another framework for your work. I don't know... You distribute things to the students....

A: Mother, I shall tell you in a minute how we are going to work: there is total freedom...

Good, good. So now, go on. Your question.

A: In any case, in our new way of seeing things, and even for practical reasons, a single monolithic organisation for several hundred students is difficult to imagine, especially if we want to establish the intimate atmosphere that the child needs in order to flourish. When we discussed this problem with C, we thought of forming families, that is, parallel groups of one hundred and eighty to two hundred children at the very maximum, and while the organisation of these groups would certainly be inspired by the same ideal and include all the facilities required for a child's development during the so-called secondary stage, each one would retain a certain originality.

These groups would of course still have every possibility of mutual exchange and multiple contacts, perhaps even occasionally certain common activities which could be more and more frequent up to the end of the secondary stage. Then comes another organisation which is adapted to the specialisation of university life.

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While manifesting an overall unity of purpose, we would in this way maintain a living diversity. What do you think about that?

All right. That will do. It is good. That is the principle, isn't it?

A: Yes, Mother.

That is the principle and now, to come down to practice, you have a certain number of rooms and all that... How are you going to...

A: Now, Mother, I shall speak about our classes, that is, about the continuation of what already exists.

All right.

At this point, A gives a long report on the organisation of the free-progress classes.

That is good, that is good. So then what do you want?... It is good. But this can be made general, surely!

A: Mother, we have a few hesitations because, in the traditional classes, there are some children—the older ones, of course—who have not learnt to work in this way. So we thought, according to what you wrote in your last letter, that there would be a period of transition, and if, for example, as you suggested, in three months' time the situation favoured a more rapid evolution, well, we would make the change.

(To B) But you, for example, what do you suggest to replace what you used to do?

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B: In principle, it is the same thing as A has suggested.

Yes.

B: The only difference is that in the afternoon the teachers want to see the students at a fixed time as before.

At a fixed time? The students come to school at a fixed time, don't they?

B: There will be three periods every day in the afternoon.

Three periods?

B: Three periods of forty or fifty minutes. That means that we want to keep what was there before in the afternoon, the same principle.

Three periods? Let me see...

C: Three successive classes, Mother.

The school opens at a fixed time, doesn't it? The students must be there at that time. They can't come at just any time.

A: Yes, Mother.

Because "free progress" does not mean indiscipline....

A: No, no, that is understood.

The student should not arrive half an hour late just because he is free, because this kind of freedom is not freedom, it is simply disorderliness. Each one must have a very strict discipline for himself. But a child is not capable of self-discipline, he must be

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taught the habit of discipline. So he should get up at the same time, get ready at the same time and go to school at the same time. That is indispensable; otherwise it becomes an impossible muddle.

A: At 7.45, Mother.

All right. So the school officially opens at 8 o'clock.

A: 7.45.

No. The school, the building opens at 7.45.

A: No, no... the classes begin at 7.45.

Ah! They begin at 7.45. And they finish?

A: At 11.30.

11.30. (To B) So you say that in the afternoon you want...

B: They will come to school at 1.50.

1.50. And when do they leave?

B: At 4 o'clock.

4 o'clock. At what time do they have to be at the Playground?

A: 4.30, Mother, something like that.

B: 4.30 or 5 o'clock.

A: Sometimes 5 o'clock.

When they go there, they eat, they are given something to eat. That's at 4.30. Well, that's possible...

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B: They are given something to eat, Mother, from 3.30 to 4.30.

It is possible, if they are very regular. But I would like to understand. "Three periods" means... the same teacher takes three different groups of students, or do the same students go to three different teachers and the teacher teaches each one separately?

B: No, it is a little different, Sweet Mother.

Make yourself clear. How many students do you have in your class?

B: We have nearly one hundred and fifty.

One hundred and fifty! All right. So your one hundred and fifty come. Then what happens?

B: There, for each student, there will be a fixed class to which he has to go.

One hundred and fifty? One hundred and fifty students in one class! Impossible!

B: Not in one class. We divide them into classes, for French and English, into different standards.

Ah! They are not all at the same standard.

B: From five to ten.²

Oh, oh, oh! And so how many teachers does that make for those one hundred and fifty students?

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B: Thirty teachers, almost thirty teachers.

Thirty teachers. All right. So what is going to happen? How many classes, how many classrooms do you have?

B: We shall have nearly fifteen or sixteen classrooms.

And so what do you teach in the afternoon? Look here, do you teach fixed things or is it still the same kind of work?

A: Mother, allow me... The remaining difference will be that for us the progress is entirely free, while they want to let the fixed classes go on to a certain extent as before.

Fixed classes?

A: That is, a fixed standard, with a fixed number of students, with a fixed teacher...

Ah! And so it is the teacher's method of teaching that will change, but he will teach a particular subject to particular students...

A: ... who will have to come at that time.

Yes, yes. That is good. That can do. Only this means that you have to... But what do you teach at that time? Languages?

A: Essentially languages, yes, Mother.

Ah! It is only for languages.

A: It is only for languages.

I understand. And so how many languages will there be for those one hundred and fifty students?

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B: In principle, three: English, French, and their mother tongue.

Ah! But that makes a lot! There is Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, and then Tamil, Telugu. That makes five already.

B: Sanskrit!

That is not... Everyone should learn that. Especially everyone who works here should learn that... not the Sanskrit of the scholars... all, all of them, wherever they may have been born.

A: In principle, Mother, that is what we are thinking of—next year, to make all the children do Sanskrit, plus their mother tongue.

Yes. Not Sanskrit from the point of view of scholarship, but Sanskrit, a Sanskrit—how to put it?—that opens the door to all the languages of India. I think that is indispensable. The ideal would be, in a few years, to have a rejuvenated Sanskrit as the representative language of India, that is, a Sanskrit spoken in such a way that—Sanskrit is behind all the languages of India and it should be that. This was Sri Aurobindo's idea, when we spoke about it. Because now English is the language of the whole country, but that is abnormal. It is very helpful for relations with the rest of the world, but just as each country has its own language, there should... And so here, as soon as one begins to want a national language, everyone starts quarrelling. Each one wants it to be his own, and that is foolish. But no one could object to Sanskrit. It is a more ancient language than the others and it contains the sounds, the root-sounds of many words.

This is something I studied with Sri Aurobindo and it is obviously very interesting. Some of these roots can even be found in all the languages of the world—sounds, root-sounds which are found in all those languages. Well, this, this thing, this is

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what ought to be learnt and this is what the national language should be. Every child born in India should know it, just as every child born in France has to know French. He does not speak properly, he does not know it thoroughly, but he has to know French a little; and in all the countries of the world it is the same thing. He has to know the national language. And then, when he learns, he learns as many languages as he likes. At the moment, we are still embroiled in quarrels, and this is a very bad atmosphere in which to build anything. But I hope that a day will come when it will be possible.

So I would like to have a simple Sanskrit taught here, as simple as possible, but not "simplified"—simple by going back to its origin... all these sounds, the sounds that are the roots of the words which were formed afterwards. I don't know whether you have anyone here who could do that. In fact, I don't know whether there is anyone in India who could do it. Sri Aurobindo knew. But someone who knows Sanskrit can.... I don't know. Who do you have to teach Sanskrit? V?

B: V, W.

W? But he is never here.

B: He is coming back in February.

A long time ago there was also X.

B: X... and there are some young teachers, Y and Z.

No, we would need someone who knows it rather well. Once I spoke to V. He told me that he was preparing a simplified grammar—I don't know what he has done—for a language that could be universal throughout the country. I don't know. Perhaps, after all, V is the best.

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So, in the afternoon, which teachers do you have? You say about thirty.

B: For all the classes, for classes five to...

For the whole school?

A: The secondary stage, Mother.

Below that, it is not your concern?

A: Other groups of teachers deal with that.

Yes, of course. And you have thirty teachers for approximately one hundred and fifty students in the secondary stage. And so what do they know when they come? Nothing? In the kindergarten they are supposed to teach them French, eh? They speak to them in French. But I don't know whether it is strict.

A: Not very strict, Mother.

Not very, eh?

D: It used to be strict before. Now most of the time they speak in Hindi.

When children are very small, very young, they tend to amuse themselves, they have... there is nothing crystallised inside and they find it very amusing to learn the various names that various languages give to the same thing. They still have... or they do not yet have any mental rigidity. They still have this flexibility which makes one aware that a thing exists in itself and that the name that is given to it is simply a convention. And so for them, I think that it is like this, that the name

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which is given is a convention. And so, many children find it amusing to say such and such a thing, for example "yes" or "no". Take these words, "yes" or "no", the sense of affirmation and negation. In French they say it like this, in German they say it like this, in English they say it like this, in Italian they say it like this, in Hindi they say it like this, in Sanskrit they say... This is a very amusing game. If you knew how to make him play, take an object and then say, "There, you see, this is..." Like that. Or a small living dog, or a small living bird, or a small living tree, and then you tell them, "You see, there are all these languages and..." It is quite blank in there, they can learn this very well, and very easily. It is a very amusing game. (To B) But that is not your concern, you are already...

All right. So, naturally, with your thirty teachers and your one hundred and fifty students, you should... They go to the various classes, according to the language they want to learn. That is quite natural, that even seems unavoidable, because it is no use having all the teachers together—they will start chattering... and then the students will come and all that will make a... No! That is good.

When one wants to learn French, one goes to this class, when one wants to learn English, one goes there, when...

C: It's not like that, Mother.

Then?

B: It is like that in the morning.

And so you, what do you teach?

B: I teach mathematics.

That has nothing to do with languages!

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B: And history.

Do you teach mathematics in French? Yes, but then, there the problem becomes more complicated.... What (laughter), what is the matter? (To B) What do you have to tell me?

A: (To B who is turning towards him) What should we explain?

B: What we want to do exactly.

C: Do you also have oral classes?

B: Oral classes, not only for languages, also for mathematics and science.

A: Mother, they are continuing the fixed classes which the children have to attend for languages, mathematics and science in the afternoon only, the morning being reserved for free work. In the afternoon they are keeping fixed classes for three subjects, whereas we have nothing...

Languages?

A: Languages, mathematics and science... and history too.

Science?

A: And science too, yes, natural science, physics.

Yes, it's a whole world. Then why?... What is left? Literature? And what else? Besides your science which covers everything, there is literature, and then? Arts? Naturally, this...

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A: (To B) Are you keeping fixed classes for all subjects? (To Mother) Mother, to sum up, we can say that, to a certain extent, in the afternoon, they are keeping an organisation which is very similar to what was there before, that is, fixed classes. But in the morning, the work is relatively free.

Here, I am curious. How is a language taught? Because a teacher who starts telling everyone the same thing... They come out of there and they have understood nothing! A language is precisely the thing that should have the most life, the most life! And in order for it to have some life, the students have to participate. They should not be ears listening and sitting on a bench! Otherwise, they come out of there and they have learnt nothing.

A: Mother, as far as we are concerned, languages are organised in the following way: for all the written work, there is an individual relationship between teachers and students. For all the oral work, meetings, etc., we offer the children various possibilities every day and they are free to attend this one or that one.

Possibilities?

A: For example, there is discussion, conversation, with various subjects of conversation—some children would rather take a scientific subject, for example, than a subject on current affairs, etc. Or there will also be dramatic improvisation, etc. All this is announced to the children on the preceding day or on the day itself; they have to go to a class, but they can choose where they want to go... and everything that Concerns composition, grammar, etc., all that.

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Yes, because these children already know the language. (To B) And you?

A: For him it is the same thing too.

(To A) Yes, like that, it is all right.

(To B) But then your afternoon class... How are you going to go about it? Like that? The children sitting on the bench and the teacher giving a lecture? My God, how boring it is! The teacher feels bored, he is the first one to feel bored, so naturally he passes on his boredom to his students.

There could be an organisation like this: you take a subject and the teacher asks questions here and there, to this one, "There, what do you have to say about this? What do you know about this?" And so on, like that. And then, naturally, if the others are listening, they can benefit. A kind of organisation like that, with some life in it—not a boring lecture where everyone falls asleep after five minutes. You ask questions, or else, if there is a blackboard, on the blackboard you write a large question in large letters so that everyone can read, and you say, "Who can answer?" You do that and then you ask questions, here and there, you question those who have asked.... And so when one of them answers, then you say, "Is there anyone who can add to what this one has said?" The teacher must have some life in him.

I understand that—one class for each language, separate groups—that is understood, in the afternoon. But for heaven's sake, none of that... sitting on a bench and, "When is it going to end?" They look at their watches.... Not one teacher out of a hundred is amusing enough to amuse everyone. And to begin with, he is the first one to feel bored. For him, it is... not here, but outside, it is his livelihood, so...

You should have twenty, thirty students, forty students there.... How many at a time? Twenty? About twenty?

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B: Yes, Mother.

Just: "Ah! We are going to have some fun. Let's see what we can do to have some fun. What game can we play?" And so, naturally, in this way you find, you invent. And he [the teacher] remains living himself, because he has to find something. And the students are there, like that.... When they have a little self-respect, they want to be able to say something, and that creates a living atmosphere. Wouldn't that be more amusing for you than doing... learning at home? If you are honest, you work in the evening for the class you are going to take the next day, you learn very carefully, you take notes and you write, and... You can prepare a subject, prepare, see, so that you are ready to answer every question. It is not always easy. But to prepare your subject well, that is good; to try to receive a little light and inspiration during the night, and then, on the next day to find a living way of living what you know. And not the students and the teacher... no! A group of living beings, some of whom know a little more than the others, that's all.

A: Mother, now there is one question, another important question. You have often told us that it is only in the inner silence that we can find the true answer to a question. What is the best way to make the children discover how this silence is established? Is this how consciousness is substituted for knowledge?

(Long silence)

You see, in this system of classes where everyone is sitting down, the teacher is there and they have a limited time in which to do the work, it is not possible. It is only if you have absolute freedom that you can establish the silence when you need to be silent. But when all the students are in class and the teacher is

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in class... when the teacher is establishing the silence in himself, all the students... then it is not possible.

He can establish the silence at home, at night, the day before, to prepare himself for the next day, but you cannot... It cannot be an immediate rule. Naturally, when you are at the very top of the scale and you are used to keeping your mind absolutely silent, you cannot help it; but you have not reached that point, none of you. So it is better not to speak about it. So I think that during the... Especially with this system, classes with a fixed time, with a fixed number of students, with a fixed teacher, and a fixed subject... you must be active while you are there.

It must be... If the students want to practise meditation, concentration, to try to come into... it is to come into contact with the intuitive plane, it is—instead of receiving a purely mental reply which is like that—to receive a reply from above which is a little luminous and living. But that habit should be acquired at home.

Naturally, someone who has this habit, in the class-when the teacher asks the question, writes this question on the blackboard, "Who can answer?"—he can do this (Mother puts both hands to her forehead), receive, oh! and then say... But when we reach that point, it will be a great progress.

Otherwise, they bring out of the storeroom everything they have learnt. It is not very interesting, but at least it gives them some mental gymnastics. And the class system is a democratic system, eh? This is because... you must be able in a limited time, in a limited space... you have to teach the greatest possible number of people, so that everyone can benefit. This is the democratic spirit, absolutely. So this requires, this requires a kind of... equalisation. Well... you put them all on the same level and that is deplorable. But in the present state of the world, we can say, "This is still something necessary." Only the children of the rich would be able to afford... obviously, it is not pleasant to think of. No, there will be a primary class problem for the whole population... for Auroville. And that will be an interesting

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problem: how can we prepare the children, children taken from anywhere, who have no way of learning at home, whose parents are ignorant, who have no possibility of having any means to learn, nothing, nothing, nothing but the raw material, like that—how can we teach them to live? That will be an interesting problem.

A: With what we have done for next year, Mother, we shall achieve total respect for the child's personality, you know. Total, at every moment—he alone will count, not the group to which he belongs. Absolutely. And then, concerning the question I was asking you just now, the working conditions in the morning are rather different, since the work will be free. So, in these conditions, perhaps the children will be able to...

Yes, there, the morning work, like the work they do there, "Vers la Perfection"³... They can very well do that: remain silent, concentrated for a moment, silence all that, everything that is noisy inside, like that, and wait. In the morning, they can do that. No, I mean, when you have an hour's class, or three-quarters of an hour's class with... all together with the teacher... you have to keep yourselves busy. It would be amusing if for three-quarters of an hour everyone could stay... (laughter).

One thing could be done once, at least once: you set a subject, like that, from the course of subjects, you set it and tell them, "For a quarter of an hour we shall remain silent, silent; no noise, no one should make any noise. We shall remain silent for a quarter of an hour. For a quarter of an hour try to remain completely silent, still and attentive, and then we shall see in a quarter of an hour what comes out of it." You can reduce it to five minutes to begin with, three minutes, two minutes, it doesn't matter. A quarter of an hour

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is a lot, but you should do... try that... see. Some of them will start to fidget. Very few children, perhaps, know how to keep still; or else they fall asleep—but it doesn't matter if they fall asleep. You could try that at least once, see what happens: "Let's see! Who will answer my question after ten minutes' silence? And not ten minutes which you will spend trying to get hold of everything you may know mentally about the subject, no, no—ten minutes during which you will be just like this, blank, still, silent, attentive... attentive and silent."

Now, if the teacher is a true teacher, during these ten minutes, he brings down from the domain of intuition the knowledge which he spreads over his class. And so you do some interesting work, and you will see the results. Then the teacher himself will begin to progress a little. You can try. Try, you will see!

A: We have tried that, Mother.

You see, for those who are sincere, sincere and very—how to put it?—very straight in their aspiration, there is a marvellous help, there is an absolutely living, active consciousness which is ready to... to respond to any attentive silence. You could do six years' work in six months, but there should... there should not be any pretension, there should not be anything which tries to imitate, there should be no wanting to put on airs. There should... you should be truly, absolutely honest, pure, sincere, conscious that... you exist only by what comes from above. Then... then... then you could advance with giant strides.

But don't do it daily, regularly, at a fixed time, because it becomes a habit and a bore. It should be... unexpected! Suddenly you say, "Ah! Supposing we did this"... when you feel a little like that yourself, a little ready. That would be very interesting.

You ask a question, a question that is as intelligent as you

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can make it, not a dogmatic question, an academic question, no—a question that has a little life in it. That would be interesting.

(Silence)

You will see, the more you strive to realise, you will discover in the nature—the lower nature, that is, the lower mind, the lower vital, the physical—how much pretension, sham and ambition there is.... One can use any... The desire to put on airs: all that must be eliminated, absolutely, radically, and replaced by a sincere flame of aspiration, of aspiration for the purity which makes us live only for what the Supreme Consciousness demands of us, which makes us able to do only what it wants, which makes us do only what it wants, when it wants. Then we can be entirely different.... It is a little far along the path, but we try to do that, always, this purification of the whole being which...

Then there is no more school, teachers, students, boredom; there is... life trying to transform itself. There: that is the ideal, this is where we have to go.

Do you have any more questions to ask me?

A: Mother, will you please give a message to the children for the first day of school, on December 16th?

If it comes, I shall give it.

E, give me the flowers. There is a vase with red flowers. There. These are for these two. There.

(To A) Here, this is for you.

(To B) And this is for you. You—you have a whole future before you. You must break the... You know, you are still bound up in old habits of thought. You have not taken sufficient advantage of the fact that you have lived here all the time, you are still too much like that....

So now, you must take that, break everything, break everything, break everything. Live only by the light that comes from

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above. Liberate, liberate your consciousness. This is important. It is good that you came. You are still very closed, like that, bound up in all the old habits and... and still, there is still something more, there is still the weight of atavism and all that.... It is the same for everyone, but, well, for the moment it is only... I am still liberating you. You are still like that... like that... like that... like that... your old habits of thought, your old habits of learning, your old habits—not very old—old habits of teaching. So all that: break it! Like that... when you go to class, every day, before you go to class, you should say a kind of prayer, make an invocation to the Supreme Consciousness, and ask it to help you to bring all this mass, this mass of living matter under its influence. Then it will become interesting, living. There you see.

Good-bye.

And now, for D, a rose.

(To D) Here. Now this, you see, this is more dynamic. You won't be able to see it, but it is more dynamic.

But women, women are in principle the executive power. You must never forget that. And in order to receive the inspiration, you can take support from a masculine consciousness if you feel the need for it. There is the Supreme Consciousness which is more certain, but still, if you need an intermediary... But for the execution, it is you who have the power to carry it out in all the details, with all the power of organisation. I am instilling this into our women Members of Parliament—you know, there are women in Parliament, and I am teaching them that: do not be submissive to men. It is you who have the power of execution. This will have its effect.

(To A and B) Oh! This is not to belittle... (laughter) The inspiration comes... the execution is... There.

So I have given to you, I have given to you... (To E) You—I haven't given to you. Over there!

Here. And this is for C.

There, my children. Good-bye.

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(To A) And when you need something, you can always write. I don't say that I shall reply immediately, but like that (Mother puts her hand to her forehead), I reply immediately. You must learn that, eh? Like that (writing), it takes time. But, well, all the same, it is better to keep me informed.

A: Yes, Mother.

Good-bye.

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