Talks with Sri Aurobindo

22 DECEMBER 1938

All of us assembled in the hope of hearing something from Sri Aurobindo. But he did not seem to be in a talkative mood. So we were forced to keep quiet, thinking how to draw him into conversation. Suddenly we found Dr. Becharlal beaming with a smile and looking at him. Then he took a few steps nearer to Sri Aurobindo and we followed him. When he drew still closer he burst into a question.

DR. BECHARLAL: To attain the right attitude, what principles should we follow in our dealing and behaviour with others?

SRI AUROBINDO: It seems to me that one should go about it the other way round. If we have the right attitude other things come by themselves. But the right attitude is itself secondary. What is important is the inner state. Spiritual and ethical principles are quite different, for everything depends on whether it is done for the sake of the Spirit or for ethical reasons. One may observe mental control in his dealings, but his inner state may be quite different. For example, he may not show anger, but within he may be ruffled. In the true inner control the inner peace is not disturbed and goodwill towards others is retained. It is the psychic control that is required and when that is there the right attitude follows in one's external behaviour. Conduct must flow from. within outwards and the more one opens to the psychic influence, the more it gains over the outer nature. Mental control may or may not lead to the psychic control. In people of a sattwic type it may be the first step towards it.

NIRODBARAN: How is the psychic control to be got?

SRI AUROBINDO: By constant remembrance, consecration of oneself to the Divine, rejection of all that stands in the way of the psychic influence. Generally it is the vital being that stands in the way with its desires and demands. But once the psychic opens, it shows at every step what is to be done.

Soon after the Mother came in and all of us sat in meditation with her. On her departure about 7:00 p.m. Sri Aurobindo started the talk again.

SRI AUROBINDO: What's the idea behind your question? Is it something personal or general?

DR. BECHARLAL: I meant, for instance, how to see God in everybody, how to love all and have a goodwill for all?

SRI AUROBINDO: One has to start with the idea of goodwill for all, to consecrate oneself to the Divine, try to see God in others, acquire a psychic control and reject in oneself all vital and mental impulses. On this basis one must proceed towards realisation. The idea must pass into experience. Once the realisation is there, everything becomes easy. But even then, it is easy in the static aspect. When it comes to the dynamic expression it becomes difficult. Thus, when one finds a man behaving like a brute, it is very difficult to see God in him, unless one separates him from his outer nature and sees the Divine behind.

One can also repeat the name of the Divine and come to a divine consciousness.

NIRODBARAN: How does repeating the name help one?

SRI AUROBINDO: The name is a power, like a Mantra. Everything in the world is a power. There are some who do Pranayama together with repeating the name. After a while, the repetition and Pranayama become automatic and one feels the Divine Presence.

There are no limits to the ways of God. In the Ashram here, once people began to feel a tremendous force in their work. They could work without fatigue for hours and hours. But they overdid it. One has to be reasonable even in spirituality. That tremendous force was felt when the sadhana was in the vital being. When the sadhana started in the physical, things were different. The physical is like a stone, full of Aprakasha and Apravritti, darkness and inertia.

NIRODBARAN: Sometimes one feels a sort of love for everybody; though the feeling lasts only for a few seconds, it gives a great Joy.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is a wave from the psychic. But what is your attitude towards it? Do you take it as a passing mood or does it stimulate you to further experience of that sort?

NIRODBARAN: It stimulates, but often the vital mixture tries to come in. Fortunately I could drive it out recently.

SRI AUROBINDO: The mixture is the risk. The fact that the mixture tried to come shows that the wave came through the inner vital and thus took something from the vital. In the vital, one has to be careful to avoid sex impurities. There was a sadhak who, in spite of his occasional outburst of violence, was a very nice and affectionate man. But he used to get his psychic experiences mixed up with the sex impulse, and the experiences were spoiled. The spoiling happens because at times one gives a semi justification to the sex impulse, saying that after all it does not matter very much. But sex is absolutely out of place in Yoga. In the ordinary life it has a certain place for certain purposes.

When I was in jail I knew a man who had a power of concentration by which he tried to make everyone love him, and he succeeded. The warders and all the others were drawn to him. Of course one must know the process of concentrating.

NIRODBARAN: That's just what we don't know. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: The mind must be made quiet and the consciousness turned—not the mind alone—towards the aim. It no doubt takes time but that is the way. There are no devices for these things.

SATYENDRA: What is the difference between modification of nature and transformation of it?

SRI AUROBINDO: Transformation is the casting of the whole nature into the mould of your inner realisation. What you realise you project outwards into your nature.

I speak of three transformations—the psychic, the spiritual and the supramental. Many have had the psychic: there were the Christian saints who spoke of God's presence in their hearts. The spiritual transformation implies the realisation of the Self, the Infinite above, with the dynamic no less than the static side of its peace, knowledge, Ananda, etc. This transformation is difficult. Beyond that is the supramental transformation, the Truth-Consciousness working for the Divine aim and purpose.

NIRODBARAN. If one has inner realisation, transformation should follow in the light of it.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. There may be some modification in the nature, but entire transformation is not automatic. It is not so easy as all that. The experience of peace and calm after my first contact with Lele never left me, but in my outer nature there were many agitations and again and again I had to make an effort to establish peace and calm there. Ever since that early experience the whole object of my Yoga has been to change the nature into the mould of the inner realisation. That is what I have done in my sadhana.

NIRODBARAN: Could a man with true realisation have grave defects left in his nature—defects like the sex impulse?

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? There can be the movement of anger as well as the sex impulse. Have you not heard of Durvasa's anger or the fall of the Rishis through sex? But all Yogis may not care about these defects. Yogis pass beyond the stage of good and evil: ordinary questions of morality don't arise then. So some of them may look upon the outer nature as a child behaving as it wants, and not bother to harmonise it with the inner being. There is also the danger of self-deception. A Yogi may go into the Higher Mind, perhaps even touch the Overmind, and yet have a sexual fall. He may think he is guided by an inner divine voice and attempt to justify his erratic behaviour by saying he is only obeying that voice. I have heard of a certain Yogi who went abroad and was arrested for making advances to girls in a public place. These things are possible because man's psychology is complex.

Once after the Barisal Conference I went to see Mahendranath Nandi who was called the Tolstoy of Brahmanbaria. His grandfather was a Tantric and could meditate sitting upon the waters of a river. From him perhaps Nandi got his spiritual capacities. Nandi used to be guided by an inner voice. When Bipin Pal asked him whether he would do anything whatsoever, good or bad, if prompted by this voice, he replied that if it was from God he would follow it to any length.

But, of course, merely unconventional conduct by a Yogi is not a fall. Once a disciple got shocked because he saw me eating meat. He complained to Ramana Maharshi. Maharshi replied that it is a question of habit and, when the man had departed, Maharshi said to his followers, "What an imbecile!"

In spiritual realisations there are any number of passages, cross ways and truths. And when I say that something is to be done or not done in Yoga, I mean in our Yoga. It does not apply to Yogas with other aims. In our Yoga we insist on the transformation of the outer nature.

There was a lull for some time after this. Then Sri Aurobindo spoke again.

SRI AUROBINDO: Do you know anything about Z?

SATYENDRA: I am not personally attracted to him.

SRI AUROBINDO: When I saw his photo I had the impression that he is a man with a strong vital power. His sadhana seems to be on the vital plane and it is in such sadhana that one brings about a great influx of Power and unfortunately people are attracted to it. In the spiritual, psychic and even mental sadhana, Power can come but it comes automatically, without one's asking for it.

Barin was another Z, with a powerful vital. At one time I had high hopes for him, but people whose sadhana is on the vital basis pass into what I have called the Intermediate Zone, and they don't want to go beyond. The vital is like a jungle and it is extremely difficult to rescue one with such a vital power. It is comparatively much easier to help those who are weak and lacking in such power. Barin used to think that he had put himself in the Divine's hands and the Divine was in him. We had to be severe with him to disillusion him of his idea. That's why he could not remain here. He went back and became a Guru with about thirty or forty disciples around him. Gurugiri comes very often to this kind of people. He did everything he wanted in my name a turn I heartily dislike. Unfortunately his mind was not as equally developed in power as his vital. He had the fighter's mind, not the thinker's. We often put a strong Force on him and as a result his mind used to become quite lucid for a while and he could see his wrong movements. But his vital rushed back, took control of his mind and wiped all out. If his mind had been as developed, he would perhaps have been able to retain the clarity. The intellect helps one to separate oneself from the vital and look at it dispassionately. The mind also can deceive, but not much.