Talks with Sri Aurobindo

24 MAY 1940

PURANI: The British Expeditionary Force seems to be surrounded by two German contingents now. They have either to push through them or re-embark.

SRI AUROBINDO: They may try to dislodge them from their occupied positions.

NIRODBARAN: It is surprising how in two weeks the Germans have marched across Belgium. It reminds me of Genghis Khan.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not marched but driven back the Allies.

PURANI: Duff Cooper has written an article on the likelihood of America joining the war if the Allies are defeated. Otherwise, he says, America will be the next victim.

SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. But Hitler won't turn so soon towards America. He will turn first towards the Balkans and, if Stalin comes in the way, march into Russia. After gaining Asia and Africa he will turn towards America. You know Washington's three dreams: First, war with England, Second, the American Civil War, third, the destruction of America by all mixed races, coloured and white. I suppose Hitler will pick out an American gaulieter as he has done in Austria.

NIRODBARAN: What is a gaulieter?

SRI AUROBINDO: Gau is province; gaulieter is province-protector. Austria has been divided into various provinces and each put under a gaulieter. The same has been done in Norway, Denmark and Belgium. I hope he won't succeed in America. As I said, his aim is clearly a world-empire.

NIRODBARAN: If Hitler is defeated what will happen to the Being guiding him?

SRI AUROBINDO: He will try to possess somebody else, for instance, Stalin. But I should say Stalin is himself a devil. He is cold and calculating, not suitable for the action of such Beings.

NIRODBARAN: The Mother said that Stalin is an incarnation of the Devil.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

NIRODBARAN: In that case, Dilip says, he is worse than a case of possession. How does he allow dancing, music, etc. in Russia?

SRI AUROBINDO: That he can do. He is an intellectual Asura. All such things are a device to keep the people contented. But if they do go against the State they are shot. And what sort of music? Folk songs? Communism is a means for keeping power in his hands. Hitler's Being is a Rakshasa.⁴

NIRODBARAN: Are these Beings immortal?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, they can be destroyed but they may be born again.

NIRODBARAN: In the physical world?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, in their own world. (After some time) Gamelin is said to have shot himself.

PURANI: No, that is the German news.

SRI AUROBINDO: He should have. I saw his latest picture. It is the face of a man already defeated, extremely weak. His chin is catastrophic.

NIRODBARAN: Pétain has something.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he is a man with a massive force but he is too old.

NIRODBARAN: He may be able to use the force.

SRI AUROBINDO: But, as I said, he is too old. Still he seems to have kept his intellectual powers intact, considering that he has turned Spain from an enemy into an ally.

PURANI: Yes, he has great influence over Franco.

NIRODBARAN: Dilip has become a convert to the Supermind. (Sri Aurobindo made an expression of pretended surprise.) Yes, he says only the Supermind can save humanity. If he has mocked at the Supermind, it was all in jest. (Sri Aurobindo began to laugh.) But he is in despair and wants to leave this sorrowful world.

SRI AUROBINDO: He will have to come back into a still more sorrowful world.

PURANI: When this war is over, there may again be a recrudescence of war after twenty-five years or so, unless some solution is arrived at.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, we have developed the system of nations and now we have to develop the unity of nations; unless they do that there will be always these recrudescences, till Nature forces us to come to a solution of the problem.

PURANI: In The Psychology of Social Development, ⁵ you have said the same thing. The nations and tribes that resisted had to perish.

SRI AUROBINDO: It was the same condition in France before the restoration of monarchy. On one side humanity is locked together; on the other side the national egos remain. The unity has of course to be a living unity, not like that of the Roman Empire in which the same old organisations and institutions remained.

PURANI: Now that the Allies and the Belgians have been forced to pool their economies, they may form such an alliance even after the war.

SRI AUROBINDO: Unless they do, there is no solution. The big Powers must form some sort of a system; it need not be a rigid system. If the small neutrals find that it is workable they may join. It has to be some sort of a federation but not the bungle and mess of the League of Nations.

EVENING

The radio reported that the Germans have advanced through a gap in the British position.

PURANI: So they left a gap for the Germans.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Yes, what on earth did they leave this gap for?

PURANI: Perhaps in their retreat they couldn't keep up their line.

SATYENDRA: Now the British say that they are in the town of Narvik.

PURANI: First seven miles, then five, then two miles away!

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they will explain that Narvik is in hilly mountainous country, covered with snow, no roads and communications. They are slowly closing round without the loss of a single man. They began in a gentlemanly way.

SATYENDRA: Yes, by dropping leaflets and making reconnaissance.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not in what they would call the savage way of the French who took Arras in one night? Only when the Germans dive-bombed did they become wild—that too only in their navy and air force.

SATYENDRA: Because on land they couldn't do anything.

PURANI: Gandhi seems to be in a conciliatory mood now—he will leave no stone unturned, he says. He will try to come to a compromise, perhaps.

SRI AUROBINDO: He ought to, unless Jawaharlal prevents him.

PURANI: Jawaharlal is not satisfied.

SRI AUROBINDO: He will never be satisfied. That is why I say unless he stands in the way. Gandhi is now under his influence.

PURANI: But C.R. and Patel may exert some influence too.

SRI AUROBINDO: England is trying to make up with Russia, it seems. They say that Russia has asked Germany and Italy to keep out of the Balkans. That would explain Russia's massing of troops on the German frontier. Italy of course will plunge towards the Balkans if she can pluck up courage.

This book of prophecy says things which are now obviously wrong. He says Fritch, who died in Poland, would reorganise Germany after Hitler's death. I can understand now what the astrologers do. They see the position, give a general impression of things which may come true. But when they particularise, they make mistakes and try to wriggle out of them. This man says that the annexation of Poland was the last successful result of Hitler's ambition. Then he goes on to say that after Hitler and Stalin have gone, Russia and Germany will make a military alliance and create a new type of State. And then he pays high tributes to Chamberlain.

PURANI: Yes, he makes him out a saint.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, saint, apostle, everything.

5 Now published as The Human Cycle.