Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

11th December 1938

Disciple : Is there no justice for the misdeeds of people like S, V and N? Surely they will have to bear the consequences of their actions? And yet how is it these people succeed in life?

Sri Aurobindo :  Justice in this life? May not be. Most probably not. But justice is not what most people believe it to be. It is said that virtuous people will have happiness, prosperity etc. in another life while in this life they have the opposite effects. In that case, the people you speak of must have been virtuous in their previous life. There is justice in the sense that the virtuous and pious people advance towards Sattwic nature while the contrary one goes down the scale of humanity and become more and more Asuric. That is what I have said in the "Arya."

(At this moment Mother came in and asked what was the subject of talk.)

Sri Aurobindo replied that X was asking about justice,

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– whether it exists. After some moments' pause Mother said : "Of course, there is justice; these people suffer, they are tormented and not happy within. But that unhappiness does not seem to change them. They go from worse to worse; yes; but in some cases as the divine pressure goes on acting, at some time, especially during some impending catastrophe, suddenly some change takes place in these people. We saw a number of people like that. e.g. those who were trying to persecute Sri Aurobindo.

Disciple : You have said in your Prayers that justice exists. One cannot avoid the law of Karma except by Divine Grace.

Sri Aurobindo : N. may be a scoundrel but he has capacity and cleverness and so he will surely succeed. It is that capacity and cleverness that succeeds in life not virtues etc.

Disciple : To cheat people and get money? Is it cleverness?

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, it is cleverness or you may say, misuse of cleverness. But I don't say that cleverness will not have its consequences, but at the same time it is these qualities that succeed in life.

Disciple : Why does not one believe in Grace?

Mother : It is because the human mind arranges and combines things  and does not leave any room for the Grace. For instance, when one is cured of a disease or passes an examination, he thinks it is due to medicine or some chance. He does not see that in between, or behind, there may be Grace acting on him. Is it not so?

Sri Aurobindo : They would call it luck.

Mother : If you don't recognize the Grace how can it work? It is as if you had shut your doors against it, Of course, it can work below, underneath so to say.

Disciple : Doesn't it act unconditionally?

Mother : It does, especially in those people who have been

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predestined for some thing; but if one recognizes and expresses gratitude, it acts more forcefully and quickly.

Disciple : Isn't it because we are ignorant?

Mother : No, I know many ignorant people having the Grace expressing a deep gratitude rising from the heart.

Disciple :  We would like the Grace to act like a Mother feeding a hungry baby, giving things when it needs etc.

Sri Aurobindo : And who is the baby? (loud laughter )

Mother :  But the Grace does not work according to human demands or conceptions. It has its own law and way. How can it? Very often what seems to be a great blow or calamity at the present moment may appear to be a great blessing after ten years and people say that their real life began after that.

Sri Aurobindo : Grace is unconditional but at the same time, how will it work if a man is throwing away the Grace, or does not recognize it? It is like a man spilling away from the cup in which something is being poured. Mother said that she is interested to see the reactions with the two fellows. It may have different results in both. She can't say how it will be different.

Disciple : Will it be a question of a degree?

Sri Aurobindo : No, difference of quality also. One is more stupid and blind than the other who knows consciously what he is aiming at. So the former has less power to harm.

Disciple :  Perhaps one may change for the better during life?

The Mother :  That is romance.

Disciple :  Especially S. may return to Ashram again.

Mother : (Looked very amused and said) Do you think so? When a man turns his back he has no chance, no possibility. One who is given a chance may have a possibility.

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Disciple : The law of Karma according to Jainism is inexorable. Even the Tirthankars can't escape it, and have to pay in exact mathematical proportion.

Sri Aurobindo : It is a great thing. But too wonderful and mathematical to be true. e.g. a son who lived for a short time cost a great deal of money to the father for his ill-health. It was said that the father had been the debtor to the son in previous life and the son realized exactly the same amount of money which he had lent by means of his illness and died. (Laughter)

Disciple : There is what is Nikachit Karma or Utkata Karma which cannot be avoided. It is like a knot that cannot be untied. It is like a silk thread tied and burnt.

Sri Aurobindo : It may be this Utkata Karma that brought about the accident (to his foot).

Disciple : What is incomprehensible is the unmerited suffering of the physical consciousness in your case.

Sri Aurobindo : How do you know it is unmerited? Perhaps it was to give me knowledge of what intense pain is. I had ordinary pains before which I could turn into Ananda. But this was intense. I never had the experience when it came suddenly and abruptly, I could not change it into Ananda. When it became of steady nature I could. Besides, we shall see afterwards the full significance. Of course, I accept it as a part of the battle.

Disciple : When will you be cured?

Sri Aurobindo : Don't ask me the question. It is just what I can't know, for, immediately I say  something the hostile forces would at once rush to prevent it. That is why I don't want to prophesy. Not that things are not known, or possibilities not seen. For instance, there are things about which I had definitely said. But where it

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is a question of possibilities, I don't tie myself to that chain of possibilities. For if I do that I commit myself in advance to certain lines of movement and the result of it may not be what I want, and I won't be able to bring down that for which I am striving, it may not be the highest but something partial. But plenty of people can prophesy. That capacity is common among Yogis. When I was arrested, my maternal-grand-aunt asked Swami Bhaskaranand, "What will happen to our Aurobindo?" He replied, "The Divine Mother has taken him in her arms; nothing will happen to him. But he is not your Aurobindo. He is world's Aurobindo and the world will be filled with his perfume.". Another time I was taken by Jatin Banerji to a Swami Narayan Jyotishi who foretold about my three trials, white enemies and also my release. When my horoscope was shown he said that there was some mistake about time and when the time was corrected he replied, "Oh, the lead is turned into gold now."

Disciple :  Have you had any prophesy in dreams? Many people get dreams or vision of coming events.

Disciple : I know the instance of A's daughter-in-law who saw him carried to cemetery and exactly two hours after he died of heart  failure.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, that is a good instance of that.

Disciple : Even without knowing the person concerned can one prophesy like that? i.e. like Bhaskaranand?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it is an intuitive power. I once tried to see a man who was to be elected and saw a figure seated in the office but quite different and unknown, not the one elected. After some time a quarrel took place between my brother-in-law and a Government  official and he was called. But by mistake "Bose"

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became "Ghose", and I had to go and see the man. I found the same man of my vision sitting as the Governor and I was much surprised.

On another occasion a friend of X. (V. Ramaswamy Aiyanger) was coming to see me and I wanted to have a vision of the man. I saw him as having clean shaven head, bull-dog face; but when he came, I found his appearance quite different, regular South Indian Brahmin features. But curiously enough, exactly after two years I saw that man had changed to what I had seen of him in vision. These things are thrown out from the subtle world to the surface consciousness. There is another instance; I was a great tea addict and could not do any work without a cup of tea. The management of tea was in charge of my brother-in-law. He used to bring the tea at any time he woke up from sleep. One day though I had much work to do I was thinking, "When will he bring tea?" "Why does he not come?" and looked at the watch when exactly, at the very moment, the tea was brought. I had made a rule never to ask anything from anybody.

Disciple :  Is consciousness of the Divine possible in the physical cells even?

Sri Aurobindo :  Yes, the cells can have peace, joy, etc. and when they are quite conscious, they can throw out the opposing forces. When peace descends in the physical it is a great force for cure.

Disciple :  Can one have peace without knowing it?

Sri Aurobindo :  That is natural peace which is more than quietude. But there is a positive peace which one knows and feels. Truth also can descend in the physical, and also Power, but very few can bear Power. Light also descends. I remember a disciple telling his Guru about the descent of Light in him.

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The Guru said, "The devil has caught hold of you", and from that time the disciple lost everything.

There is an infinite sea of peace, ananda, above the head; if one is in contact with it one can get them always.

Disciple :  Do any thoughts or suggestions come to you?

Sri Aurobindo :  What do you mean? Thoughts and suggestions come to me  from every side and I don't refuse them. I accept them and see what they are. But what you call "thinking" that I never do. Thinking in that sense had ceased long ago since I had that experience with Lele. Thoughts, as I said, come to me from all sides and from above and the transmitting mind remains quiet, or it enlarges to receive them. True thoughts come in this way. You can't think out such thoughts, what Mother calls "mental-constructions."

Disciple :  Was "Arya" written in that way?

Sri Aurobindo :  No, it was directly transmitted into the pen. It is a great relief to get out of that responsibility.  

Disciple :  Yes, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo :  I don't mean responsibility in general but that of thinking about everything. Some thoughts are given or reflected from outside. It is not that I don't ask for knowledge. When I want knowledge I call for it. The Higher faculty sees thoughts as if written on a wall.

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