Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

16th January, 1939

There was a humourous sequel to a telegram requesting for "ashes". It was a puzzle for some time and after some effort the word ashisha", meaning "blessing" was rightly understood.

Disciple : I do not understand why he is asking for "ashes".

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Sri Aurobindo : I don't understand either. When I used to smoke I could have sent at least the cigar ashes. But now I do not smoke !

Disciple : But we are burning here the mosquito-coils. The ashes of the coils can be sent. (Laughter)

Disciple : But I think he is asking for Blessings – the post office in receiving the Sanskrit word Ashisha seems to have turned it into "ashes"! (Laughter)

Disciple : I read a paper written by Prof. Somesh Bose, a mathematician, in which he mentions that Bholagiri, a Sadhu had meditation with his wife who was dead. He says that he saw them both, his dead wife present "in flesh and blood". The question is : Is it possible? Also, whether Bholanath materialized his wife or she did it herself? Somesh says, she was everyday present at the prayer time. Can she remain like that in her materialized body almost all the time? Does she live with Bholagiri all the time, or does she come and go? What will materialists say?

Disciple : They will say it is all humbug. (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) But what does yoga say?

Sri Aurobindo : "Many possibilities". This seems to be a case of temporary materializing, as Bholagiri is present every time. I believe, there is always a difference between material body and a materialized body. This kind of materializing commonly takes place immediately after a man dies. You find that he visits either a relation or a friend. If the fact of his death is not known or if the man is not known to be living far away, people mistake it for an actual physical presence.

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There are many authentic cases of this kind. My poetic brother Mono Mohan's friend Stephen Philips said that his Mother had visited him after her death. Mono Mohan told me the story, ascribing the experience to telepathic communication of the form. But I think it is not mere communication of form or cast by the mind only. There is the vital and the physical part which materializes.

Disciple : You have already cited the other day the case of Lord Strethmore. But is it possible to materialize completely?

Sri Aurobindo : Theoretically, it should be possible, though I have known no case of the same. After the experience we had of the stone-throwing in the Guest-house here, I believe, if the stones could be materialized, why not a human being?

Disciple : The Egyptians preserved the human body after death, with the belief that the soul would return to it after some years. Paul Brunton claims to have met some spirit hoary with age on the hill near the pyramids.

Sri Aurobindo : The Egyptians believed that at the time of death the Ka, the vital being, went out of the man and after a thousand years, if the body was preserved, it would return to it. Brunton, I suppose, materialized the belief.

Disciple : Is it possible to revitalize the dead?

Sri  Aurobindo : I can't say.

Disciple : There is a reported case of a Bey whom Brunton met and who revived a sparrow after it was dead. Brunton says that he saw the same phenomenon performed

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by Vishuddhananda, "Gandhi Swamy" as he was called. Is it possible?

Sri Aurobindo : That is possible. Just as you can revive a drowned man by pulling his physical organs into function again, that is, by resorting to physical devices life can be restored. If you know how to reintroduce the power that sets the organs to action, after the body is wounded or dead, you can revive the man.

The real question is whether it is the being of the man that comes back to life, or it is some other spirit that wants to live and gets hold of the body. Both are possible, because revival is done in two ways : One, is to bring back the spirit of the man which is still not far away, the other is to get some other spirit that consents to come.

Disciple : Can the vital-being be called back to the body?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, if it has not gone away very far it can be pulled back to the body.

 (The subject was changed)

Disciple : There is chance of "C" coming.

Disciple : He has been coming for a long time.

Disciple : He is coming after organizing his property.

Sri Aurobindo : Is he still organizing his property? Has he much property left?

Disciple : I am afraid he has lost everything.

Sri Aurobindo : He is a phenomenon! Do you remember

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the name of the person who apologized to us? I wonder whether he offered the apology because his public attack did not succeed.

Disciple : Yes. He seemed to have gathered all sorts of false facts from all kinds of people.

Disciple : Did you read his book?

Sri Aurobindo : I simply glanced at it! I don't think he sold more

than half a dozen copies. (after a pause) It seems "M" has expressed sorrow for what she did here and explained that she acted under the influence of S and B.

Disciple : The attack by "R" was not of any allegations. His objection was that the Ashram was not doing what he calls public work.

Sri Aurobindo : What work?

Disciple : Say country's work, work for humanity.

Sri Aurobindo : It is quite a new objection. Nobody expects an Ashram, a spiritual institution, to do work!

Disciple : The Ramkrishna Mission, Gandhi's Ashram and some other institutions do some public work and so people expect an Ashram to work for humanity.

Sri Aurobindo : Perhaps, because I did political work they expect that I should continue doing it all my life.

Disciple : Not only that, the objection is that so many young men are being drawn away from the field of work.

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Sri Aurobindo : Oh, I see.

Disciple : But Gandhi's Ashram is not a spiritual institution. It is a group of people gathered to be trained to do some work on Mahatma's principles and methods. One can say that service to the        public is one of their aims.

But Subhas wrote against the Ashram recently on the ground that it was attracting away some of the best people from country's work.

Disciple : I don't remember if he wrote "best" or "good" for those who came here. He quoted the example of D.

Sri Aurobindo : But D was not doing political work.

Disciple : Subha's idea was that D may not do political work now. But when the time came he must be prepared to give up everything and join the struggle.

Sri Aurobindo : I see, one can't give up everything for God!

Disciple : But suppose one gives up everything for country's freedom, then what is he to do afterwards, except perhaps going to jail.

Sri Aurobindo : D in jail! Perhaps he would write off some stories about his agony.

Disciple : That, perhaps, would be a gain to literature, not to politics.

Sri Aurobindo : At the time of the Gandhi movement some one asked Abanindranath Tagore, why he was not giving up his painting for the sake of the country and take to politics. He said : I believe, I serve the country through my painting in which I have some capacity, that, at

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least, is something I know; whereas I would be only a bad politician.

Disciple : Tagore narrowly escaped the Charkha. But it seems Nandlal Bose is turning at!

Sri Aurobindo : He is a man of ascetic temperament. There was an enthusiast who even wrote an article showing that the Chakra referred to in the Gita was the Charkha!

Disciple : It was Vinoba Bhave, a disciple of Mahatma.

The topic changed to Baroda. Dr. M. mentioned that now the old race course is covered by fine buildings constructed by co-operative Societies and that doctor Balabhai was still alive staying in one of the new buildings. He is nearly eighty-five.

Aurobindo : (After a pause) The mention of Baroda brought to my mind the connection with the Gaekwad. It is strange how things arrange themselves at times. I had failed in the I. C. S. and was looking for a job. Exactly at the time the Gaekwad happened to be in London. I don't remember whether he called us, or we met him, but an elderly gentleman, whom we consulted, was quite willing to propose Rs. 200/- per month as a good sum. It would be more than £10/- and it is surprising that he thought it was very good!

But I left the negotiations to my elder brother and James Cotton. I knew nothing about life at that time.

Disciple : What were the expenses in those days?

Sri Aurobindo : Before the war, it was quite decent living for £5/-. Our landlady was an angel. She came from

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Somerset and had settled in London – perhaps after she was widowed. She was long suffering and never asked us for money even if we did not pay for months and months. I wonder how she managed. I paid her from my I. C. S. stipend.

It was father's fault that I failed in the riding test. He did not send money and the riding lessons at Cambridge then were rather costly. The teacher was also careless; so long as he got his money he simply left me with the horse and I was not particular.

I tried riding again at Baroda with Madhav Rao but it was not successful.

My failure was a great disappointment to my father because he had arranged everything for me through Sir Henry Cotton. A post was kept for me in the district of Arah which is considered a fine place. All that came down like a wall. (pause)

I wonder what would have happened to me if I had joined the civil service. I think, they would have chucked me for laziness and arrears of work! (laughter)

Disciple : Do you remember Nana Saheb Sinde of Baroda?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, Madhav Rao Jadhav, myself and Nana Saheb all of us held revolutionary ideas at that time.

Disciple : He has spoken to the youth conference emphasizing the need of military training for the defense of the country. His speech was against the current vogue of non-violence.

Sri Aurobindo : It is good that some one raises voice like

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that when efforts are being made to make non-violence the method of solving all problems.

Disciple : But the insistence on non-violence has succeeded in disarming the Pathan of the Frontier. It seems, Gandhi objected to armed volunteers keeping guard over him while he was in the Frontier province.

Sri Aurobindo : And what were they expected to do in case there was an attack? Stand simply?

Disciple : No. They should die resisting.

Sri Aurobindo : This non-violent resistance I have never been able to fathom. I can understand an attitude of absolute non-resistance to Evil, as the Christians say "Resist not the Evil". You may die without resisting and accept the consequences as sent by God. But to resist passively seems to me meaningless. And to change the opponent's heart by such passive resistance is something I don't understand.

Disciple : And the "Modern Review" put in another objection which is worth considering. The article accepts that non-violence may be a good gospel for a great Saint but for the ordinary man to allow evil to triumph so easily – by passive resistance – would not be good for the society. There is no reason to hope that the goonda will change his mind, or heart, if you allow him to kill you.

Sri Aurobindo : I am afraid, non-violence is being applied to other fields whereas its extreme application is meant for spiritual life. Non-violence or Ahinsa as a spiritual attitude and its practice is perfectly understandable and has a standing. You may not accept it in toto but it

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has a basis in the Reality. You can live it in spiritual life but to try to apply to all life seems too much. Such an application ignores the great principle of Adhikar, – qualification even as the Europeans do. Also it makes no provision for difference of situations.

Disciple : Mahatma's point is that in either case, whether with arms or without, you are prepared to die. Then, why not try to die without arms, since armaments are piling up in all nations and there is no end to where it will lead. In the other case you perpetuate passive-resistance while in fighting you perpetuate killing.

Sri Aurobindo : If you bring in the question of expense then the reasons for non-violence, we must admit, are economic and not ethical. (After a pause)

It is a principle which can be applied with success if practiced on a mass scale, specially by unarmed people like the Indians, because you are left with no other choice. But even when it succeeds it is not that you have changed the heart of the enemy, but that you have made it impossible for him to rule. That is what happened in Ireland. There was in Ireland armed resistance also but that would not have succeeded without the passive resistance side by side. Such tremendous generalizations like "passive resistance for all", "Charkha for all", "celibacy for all" hardly work.

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