Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

19th January, 1939

Dr. R's visit : In course of his talk he remarked in connection with the swelling at the knee joint that all diseases are of the nature of inflammations.

After he departed, Sri Aurobindo asked :

"In what sense are all illnesses inflammations?  There could be any setisfactory explanation of it."

The topic of Aldous Huxley's book "Ends & Means" was taken up by a disciple.

Disciple : Huxley suggests two ways of solving the problems of man. One by changing the existing institutions of education, industries, in fact by modifying social, political, economic and religious institutions. This would bring about a change in the individual. So far as industries are concerned he suggests the creation of small units federated to a Central Organization. Thus it would eliminate large units which are the roots of all troubles. The second remedy he suggests is to change the individual and make him, what he calls "non-attached", who would practice virtue with disinterestedness. I believe there is a French author who also advocates such new types of industrial institutions.

Sri Aurobindo : That was my idea when I proposed to Motilal to have a spiritual commune. – I don't call it Commune but a Sangha – a Community based on spirituality and living its own economic life; it would have its own agriculture, and a net work of such communities spread all over the country would interchange its products among themselves.

Disciple : You gave him the idea of the paper also.

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Sri Aurobindo : I now don't remember. But I asked him to start hand-looms and weaving.

Disciple : He has tried to take up Gandhian plan after he separated from us; we used to insist on Swadeshi; now they call it Khaddar.

Disciple : The financial condition there does not seem as sound as it made to appear.

Sri Aurobindo : Possibly. I do not know now what they are doing. I heard that some plots were bought in the Sunderbans to start agriculture. But as people were getting malaria, it had to be given up.

Disciple : Is it something like Dayal Bag? I don't know what spirituality they are having there. It seems as if all their energies are directed to external work and industries.

Sri Aurobindo : That may be due to their large-scale production. I heard that Anukul Thakur also has started work on the same idea.

Disciple : Does he not belong to Dayal Bag?

Sri Aurobindo : No. He may belong to what they call, the Radha Swami School. But he does not belong to Dayal Bag.

Disciple : But to start such a Sangha one must have spiritual realization and may take a long time to start.

Sri Aurobindo : Not necessarily. Ordinarily if one is to wait for spiritual realization it will take time. But all may not have the highest or supramental realization. Spiritual experience is enough for the people and that is not difficult to have. I told M that spirituality must be the basis of the Sangha. Otherwise, your success will be your failure. But he does not seem to have listened to it.

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(After a pause) There were other religious communities of this sort before. The Dukhobar Community in Russia was very powerful and well organized, strong in its faith. They held together in spite of all persecution. At last they had to emigrate to Canada. One of their tenets was nudism, which the Canadian Government did not like and they got into trouble. (with a smile) They had at least solved the weaving problem (laughter).

Then the Mormons were famous in the United States. The name of the founder was Joseph Smith, a prosaic name for a prophet. But Bringham Young was a very remarkable man, who really made the commune. Curiously enough one of their tenets, again, was polygamy. Their religion was based on the Old Testament. When they were made to give their religion they became quite like an ordinary man.

Mark Twain said that when the chief was interrogated in the presence of his members he replied that he knew his children by numbers, not by their names – it was inconvenient to remember their names.

There was another community in America which did not allow marriage among its members.

Disciple : Do you know if any communities are there in India?

Sri Aurobindo : The Sikhs are the only community organized on a religion. Thakur Dayananda established or tried to establish an order of married Sannyasins.

Disciple : I heard that Anukul Thakur also adopted it for his disciples.

Sri Aurobindo : Disciples are another matter – they are allowed to marry.

Disciple : I think, he permitted the Sannyasins to marry.

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Sri Aurobindo : The same principle is accepted by the Vaishnavas, who follow the Nityanand – school – they accept a Vaishnavi.

Disciple : All sorts of attempts at collective life seem to have been made and when one sees them all, one is driven to despair like the bald man – who was trying all kinds of remedies to cure baldness – who on looking at king Edward VII’s photo with his shining bald head, said, “I give it up” – (Laughter) Have you any idea how the supermind will proceed?

Sri Aurobindo : No idea. If you have an idea the result will be what has been in the past. We must leave the supermind to work it out.

Disciple : But that sort of work has to be based on love. One must have love for everyone.

Sri Aurobindo : Love is not enough. Something more than love is necessary. Unity of consciousness is more important than love.

Disciple : The trouble is, as soon as one begins something one tends to become ego-centric. Quarrel starts like aggravation of symptom in opathy (Laughter).

Sri Aurobindo : But love also leads to quarrel. Nobody quarrels more than the lovers (laughter). (Looking at X) You know the Latin proverb that each quarrel is a renewal of love. Love is a fine flower but unity of consciousness is the root.

The difficulty is that those who are here receive something of the Higher power and they become go-centric, then gather it in the vital and turn it to their lower nature. They think, it is their own power. When A came here from Chandranagore he said, “There at

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Chandranagore – everybody is a sheep following the shepherd but here everybody is a Royal Bengal Tiger. (Laughter)

Disciple : Somebody also said that here is a zoo where each one is a lion roaring in his den.

Sri Aurobindo : When we were very few and the Ashram had not grown, B and S used to convert all sorts of people to spirituality, they were great. B once caught hold of a young Tamilian who was quite sheepish. B used to meet him. After three or four months of contact it was found, the young man had become quarrelsome, indolent and insolent – a great transformation had come over him – (laughter). It is S who made D a public leader. At any rate, the one thing he did was to make D get rid of all scruples. “Right and wrong do not matter, good and bad are nothing” he used to tell.

Disciple : And now D is trying to live up to it.

Sri Aurobindo : D used to say to Dr. Le Mongnac, “It is impossible for me to fail because I am a God-man.” He said to many people here that he is not afraid because he is Sri Aurobindo’s disciple. He got the power from the Mother and all agree that he is the one man who can do something if he wanted to. Mrs. R used to write : “What has N come to – at Pondicherry? He is writing to us “do this” and “do that”, and finds fault with our work”. Of course, they were uarrelling in Japan also when they were there. They had different views on their work.

B came straight from X. X was another great propagandist. He caught any one he could and made him do the Yoga – of course, it was his yoga. He did not think that any such thing as Adhikar was necessary.

Disciple : We had a hard tussle with Mahatmaji’s followers

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over the question of transcending morality and immorality in a man of spiritual realization and resultant conduct. They always think that going beyond morality means sinking to immorality. All that does not conform to their moral code is immoral.

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, all can’t go beyond morality. So their theory is true in their own field. It is a mental rule and so long as one cannot come in contact with the dynamic Divine source of action in himself, one has to be guided by some law of conduct – otherwise one might take up the attitude : “There is no virtue and no sin, so let us sin merrily.”

What Sri Krishna says in the Gita” “Sarva Dharman parityajya” “abandoning all laws of conduct” – is said at the end of the Gita and not in the beginning : And then that is not alone; there is also “mamekam Sharanam Vraja,” “take refuge in Me alone.” But before one finds within oneself the guidance of the dynamic Divine, one has to have some rule to guide himself. Most of the people have to pass through the Sattwa stage. It is only very few that can start above it and the moral rule is true so far as most people are concerned.

Disciple : Can one say that the psychic being always wants transformation? There are people who believe that the psychic being in evolution would and must want transformation. Only the Atman – the spirit – can merge into laya in the infinite. Can not the developed psychic being turn to Laya – merging into the infinite?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it can; it depends on whether it is in front or not. If it is in front then, as I said, it takes charge of the nature and then its aspiration will be for transformation. But the developed psychic being can take any other spiritual direction. It depends on what direction the Divine within chooses. We cannot dictate to the soul

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what it shall choose; all are not compelled to transform their nature.

Disciple : What is the kind of transformation that takes place?

Sri Aurobindo : The psychic transformation is the first one. Many yogis achieve this psychic transformation : it is the pure Bhakta-nature. But all spiritual men are not saints, of course, both can go together, sometimes.

Disciple : Is there a distinction between saints and spiritual persons?

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, there is; saints are limited by their psychic nature, but spiritual men are not. The saint, generally, proceeds from and lives in the heart-centre. The spiritual man might live in other higher centres – say, above the head, in the spiritual consciousness.

Disciple : It is not quite clear to me – the distinction.

Sri Aurobindo : The saints live in the psychic being, that is, in the Purusha in the heart but the spiritual man might live above the head. I never felt like a saint myself – though Maurice Magre calls me ‘a philosopher and a saint.’ Krishna, for instance, was not a saint. A spiritual man may not always behave like a saint, he may have many other things in him like Rishi Durvasa.

Disciple : But saints are nearer to humanity; they are not like the Ishwar-Koti to whom no laws apply.

Disciple : In this yoga one has to fight like Arjuna, in the battle of Kurukshetra, because it is a yoga of fight and battle.

Sri Aurobindo : Not necessarily; it depends on the nature of the being. There are some people, for instance, who when they meet the hostile forces in the vital or in dream

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begin to fight, while there are others who call for protection. If one has the psychic attitude one need not fight. Fighting is for the mental and the vital man; in the case of the mental type the fight is with ideas.

Disciple : Some people regard quarrelling with the Divine as the psychic way.

Sri Aurobindo : In that case, many people are psychic in the Ashram.

Disciple : I remember X’s letter referring to Ramprasad’s Song claiming that the Divine must satisfy his demand, because he had sacrificed everything for the Divine.

Disciple : “Claim” based on what? This argument seems to be “you must give me thing because I badly want it.” But what reply you gave to him?

Sri Aurobindo : It was not addressed to me; it was addressed to Krishna.

Disciple : Then, I will ask him to write to you.

Sri Aurobindo : No, No, don’t do that (laughter). Otherwise, I will have to be as hard as Krishna.

Disciple : They say that Shiva is a very kind and generous God.

Sri Aurobindo : I don’t know if he is very kind to the demons. He gives very inconvenient boons and finds it very difficult to wriggle out through them. He is a God who does not care for consequences. Generally Vishnu or somebody else has to come in afterwards to save the situation. Krishna is hard-hearted, they say.

(The topic underwent a change.)

Disciple : I am reminded of Sadhaka X whose Sadhana seemed to be going on very well...who is now attracted

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to Buddhism. I do not know if he has been attracted to some woman – but there was some such indication.

Sri Aurobindo : It is sad if it is true. In one of his letters to Y he wrote that one need not be a eunuch in order to be a master of sex......one should guard his realization.

Realization is something very precious and one should guard it and live in it like a fortress. One can go in adding whatever knowledge one wants or gets but always guarding his realization. For instance, it is not at all necessary to give up Bhakti to get Jnana.

After all it is a pity that he should give up the love of Krishna for a mere human girl. I found it difficult to go through his Commentary on the Gita. It is more intellectual, it lacks the life and the heart. Otherwise, it was always a pleasure to read his writings. He seems to have lost the intensity of mental vision, the seeing mind which he had, but I thought that it was due to his turning towards Knowledge.

His attraction towards Buddhism is understandable, because to the European rational mind its rationalism has an appeal. It was first through Buddhism that Europe came to and began to know India. Blavatsky founded Theosophy on Buddhism. Next they understand Shanker in Europe and for many years the Europeans thought there was nothing in India except Shanker’s Adwaita. But if X has taken to Buddhism his sex abhoration is not justifiable. Buddhism is the most exacting path. It is most unindulgent, severe and dry; it is a path of Tapasya.

Disciple : He had perhaps great mental pride.

Sri Aurobindo : May be also vital over-confidence.

Disciple : He said to Y that sex was not a problem for him.

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Sri Aurobindo : That is over-confidence. Perhaps in course of Sadhana some opening has taken place in the vital.

Disciple : But can a Sadhaka fall like that after such fine realizations as he had?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by realizations? There is always the possibility of being Yoga Bhrashta (fallen from yoga).

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