Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

FEBRUARY 1940

23 February, 1940

Disciple : The world is Swayambhu – self-existent – according to Jainism. God can't have created world because he lacks motive.

Sri Aurobindo : Do you create because you are unhappy? Nirod writes poetry because he is miserable?

Disciple : No, to get more joy.

Sri Aurobindo : He is then full of joy and wants more.

Disciple : If God has not created the world, you can't get his help in liberation.

Disciple : In Jainism each one gets liberation by his own effort. Even Tirthankars don't help.

Sri Aurobindo : Of what use are they?

Disciple : He is like an example. It is Shasan Devatas who are worshippers of Tirthankars that help.

Page 254

Sri Aurobindo : Then you can worship the Devas. If Devas worship Tirthankars they should not help either because their ideal is the attainment of Tirthankars. Why should they help? It is also contradiction of the law of Karma. If Karma brings its own reward inevitably then help of God is unnecessary. If God helps and intervenes effectively and changes the result of action, then the law of Karma is not true.

Disciple : Jainism believes in Purushartha.

Sri Aurobindo : If you believe in Purushartha you can't expect Grace of God. How can you pray to help you?

Disciple : I believe in Grace but in Jainism they don't.

Disciple : Then why do you do this?

Disciple : For myself I believe. They believe each one is alone and they say: "I have come alone and will go alone." This feeling will give Vairagya.

Sri Aurobindo : If he is alone, how does the Tirthankars and Acharyas, so many, infinite number of, Siddhas crowded in Siddhasila come in? Like all religions it is fantastically illogical. Buddha also said the same thing, but the religion says: "Buddham Saranam Gachchhami." So also in Jainism.

Disciple : In Jainism self-mortification persists. In Buddhism there is not. Buddha gave it up after a trial. Buddha and Mahavir were contemporaries but they don't seem to have met. Mahavir was born in Vaisali.

Sri Aurobindo : Who? M? (Laughter).

Disciple : In Jainism each soul is bound by ignorance and there are three ties of that ignorance and three ways of liberation. This has been symbolized in the Swastika.

Page 255

Sri Aurobindo : That is why Hitler took Swastika from there. (Laughter)

Disciple : Because he wants to dominate over all the world.

Disciple : Jainism believes in multiplicity of Purushas and in one Prakriti.

Disciple : It is like the Sankhya system.

Sri Aurobindo : They took it from Sankhya. Their whole stand is on the Sankhya. (Disciple M.) was repeating Navakar like Gayatri.

Disciple : It sounds like Pali.

Disciple : Yes; it is written in Magadhi. It is in the Prakrit language.

Sri Aurobindo : What kind of Prakrit? There are many Prakrits.

Disciple : The language that was current in Behar.

Disciple : Mahavir was a Behari.

Date not available but sometime in February

Disciple : Bijoy Goswami passed the last years of his life in Puri and he came to the conclusion that so long as poverty was there in India spiritual and religious teaching had no chance. One of his disciples writes in the last issue of the 'Kalyan' that in his last years he believed in Dana Yagna – charity. So much so that he ran into big debts and when his health was failing the disciple had to arrange for the money to pay up the loan, because Bejoy Goswami said that he could not leave Puri before paying the debt and he asked his disciples not to be calculating and practical but do the work, as a Divine work, without thinking of to-morrow.

Page 256

Sri Aurobindo : It is one thing to think of tomorrow and quite another to try to remove poverty by feeding the poor. People don't understand that philanthropy cannot remove poverty, it can at the most relieve it. If you want to remedy poverty you must find the causes of poverty and remove them. And it is not a correct idea that when people have plenty they will think of God, since the greater number of spiritual people have been those who have renounced everything and lived on very little. As soon as people have money they forget those who have no money.

Disciple : His idea was that people cannot believe that God is all-merciful, kind and loving, unless at least their physical needs are satisfied.

Sri Aurobindo : If the idea is that God is all compassionate and must look after everybody's food and cloth then of course his principle would be true.

Disciple : At last all his disciples had to collect large sums far away in Bengal and send him the money to pay the debts, but he never reached Calcutta. I believe he died in Puri.

Disciple : But I heard that he was poisoned by some jealous Sadhus; he made Sthambhan – control – on poison for some time, but ultimately he could not prevail.

Page 257