Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

26th January, 1939

Disciple : It seems Barcelona – in Spain – is going. The French people are waking up at the eleventh hour.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, democracies are showing such courage at present!

Disciple : It seems, political ideas and ideals are not worth fighting for. Thousands fought for democracy and now

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they are in a hurry to give it up. Nothing seems to be permanent in the political field.

Sri Aurobindo : Quite so. All human values are half values – they are relative. They have no permanence or durability about them.

Disciple : Perhaps, if man became more of a mentalized being, he would understand things better.

Sri Aurobindo : By being mentalized? No. The difficulty that men do not follow the principles of life.

Disciple : How is that?

Sri Aurobindo : Life compromises between different elements, but mind while acting alone does not compromise. Mind takes up one thing – (one idea, or principles or anything like that) – and makes it absolute. Mind considers it as apart from and opposed to all other things.

Hegel boasted that in Europe they had succeeded in separating reason from life and you see their philosophy –  it has nothing to do with life; it is all mental gymnastics, it does not form part of life.

While in India, philosophy has always been a part of life; it has an aim.       

In the political philosophy of Europe you find, if they accept democracy, it is only democracy – all the rest is opposed to it. If monarchy, then it is only monarchy. That is what happened in Greece. They fought for democracy and opposed aristocracy and monarchy and in the end oligarchy came and monarchy – at last they were conquered by the Romans.

Disciple : Then what is the truth in all these attempts at political organization?

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Sri Aurobindo : If you want to arrive at something true and lasting, you have to look at life and learn from it. That is to say, you must learn the nature of the opposition and contradictions and then reconcile them.

As regards government, life shows that there is a truth in monarchy – whether hereditary or elective. That is to say, there is a man at the top who governs. Life also shows that there is a truth in aristocracy, whether it is of strong or rich men – that of money or intellect.

The current fiction is, it is the majority that rules. Life also shows that the rule of the kind or of the aristocracy should be with the consent – silent or vocal – of the people who form the mass.

In ancient India, they recognized the truth of these things. That is why India has lasted through millenniums and China also. English politics is successful because they have always found one man or two who had the power to lead the minority of the ruling class. During Victorian period it was either Gladstone or Disraeli, and even when the party in power changes in England the other party that comes to power does not change things radically. They continue the same policy with a slight modification.

In France no government lasts, sometimes it changes within a few days! The new government is a repetition of the one it replaces. Blum is one who wanted to do something radical but he was knocked out.

Disciple : Did you see Subhas's statement?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. He seems to have a queer logic; because the Right has a majority so, the president should be from the minority. And what is the sense in saying :  we will fight to the core? I can understand that kind of idea if you are going to have revolution. Then there can be no

Page 187

compromise. But once you have accepted compromise there is no meaning in that statement. One has to work out on the basis of what one has gained. Satyamurty's idea of federation seems all right to me if the States' people are given some representation in the centre and the Viceroy exercises no veto. It would then practically amount to -rule.

Disciple : The Viceroy's long stay in Bombay seems significant. I think, there is something behind it. He may want to settle the office-bearers for the federation.

Sri Aurobindo : The Bombay Ministry seems to be working efficiently. They have escaped the socialists trap. These socialists do not know what is socialism.

Disciple : There were many humourous speeches in the Sindh-assembly. The League has been exposed.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, the Sindh Premier – I always forget his name – seems to be a strong man and stands up for his ideas at the risk of unpopularity. The Sindh Muslims were anxious to join the Congress. The Congress should try to do something to make a coalition there.

The Congress ministries are successful almost everywhere. That is an indication of the power to govern if powers are given.

Disciple : Only Bengal and Punjab remain under Muslim League influence.

Sri Aurobindo : The Muslim League is not so strong in Bengal – there is the Praja party there. In the Punjab Sikandar Hayat Khan seems to be an able man. Only, in U. P. the Muslim League seems strong.

Disciple : I wonder how Fazlul Haque could become the Premier. Perhaps Nazimuddin may be more capable.

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Sri Aurobindo : He won't make a popular figure. Haque can turn as circumstances require. All these Muslims of the League seem to be a lot of self-seekers.

Disciple : I do not understand why the Congress opened negotiations with the League. It has been giving an undue importance.

Sri Aurobindo : How is it that the Congress is so weak in the Punjab?

Disciple : Because of the Socialists and the old Congress people fighting each other. The Jayapur affair is starting again. Bajaj is going to offer Satyagraha. It seems, Mahatma has given his approval.

Sri Aurobindo : Since he is a congressman I suppose the Congress will have to back him. If the State people get power the princes will have no work but to sign papers and shoot animals.

Disciple : Where will they shoot? The forests are being depleted of animals.

Sri Aurobindo : The forests have to be preserved and also the wild life. China destroyed all her forests and the result is there is flood every year.

Disciple : There are so many Maharajas, Chiefs, Nawabs all over India.

Sri Aurobindo : Germany was like that at one time. Napoleon swept away half of the number and the last war swept off another half. Japan also had many princes but they voluntarily abdicated their power. The Japanese are not greedy for money. They can easily sacrifice if they find it is their duty to sacrifice – of course, duty to the country.

Page 189

Disciple : How far back in history do they go?

Sri Aurobindo : The Mikado claims to be the descendant of the Goddess of the Sun. The Mikado Maigi believed in it and he used to do what was necessary after feeling the inspiration within him.

There are two types of features among the Japanese :  one tall and with a long nose and fine aristocratic face, and another the 'Inune' who came from Australia and Polynesia. It was the tall people with classical features that gave Samurai Culture to Japan. I met a Japanese painter at Tagore's place – he was of the first type – what magnificent features! The other is the usual Mongolian type.

Disciple : The dictator's psychology is an authority complex. People under the dictator feel they are great and that the dictator – in this case Hitler – is fighting for them, not they who fight for him. Perhaps the dictators find a competitor in God and religion. So they try to crush religion.

Sri Aurobindo : But Mussolini did not crush religion in Italy, though Kemal and Stalin did. Mussolini on the contrary has given more power to the Pope in the Vatican. He has practically recognized the Roman Church as the State religion.

Disciple : I read in a newspaper that Kemal in his intoxicated condition slapped an Egyptian because he came to a dinner party with a fez on.

Sri Aurobindo : Have you not heard the story of a journalist?

Disciple : No.

Sri Aurobindo : Well, a young journalist of Turkey criticized the government saying; Turkey is governed by a number

Page 190

of drunkards. Kemal came to know of it. Next day, the journalist received an invitation to dinner. He was trembling as to what was coming. After dinner was over Kemal told him :  Young man, you are quite mistaken in saying that Turkey is governed by a number of drunkards. It is not true. Turkey is governed by one drunkard.

Disciple : Kemal at one time tried to play off Italy against Russia.

Sri Aurobindo : But Russia has all along helped Turkey.

Disciple : Stalin forced the collectivization of farming among the Ukrainians. The farmers did not like it. So, to spite the government they collected from the farmers only what they required for themselves for the year; they did not collect the crop for the government. Stalin came to know about it. In the meantime the crop standing in the fields was destroyed by cold and frost. He sent down his officials and they attached the corn collected by the farmers as state dues. The result was famine. The farmers starved and died by the thousands. Stalin did no help; he allowed them to die. He was afraid that once he submitted to them there would be no collectivization anywhere.

Sri Aurobindo : That is what happens when socialism comes. Communism is different. If they had been successful in carrying out the original idea of the Soviets then it would have been a great success. Mussolini at first tried to form corporate state but he also gave it up later on.

Disciple : The Socialists did not succeed in breaking the trade-unions in Ahmedabad, which are under the Congress.

Sri Aurobindo : Socialism has no chance with the Indian peasant. He will side with you so long as you promise him land and want to end the land-lord system. But once

Page 191

he has got the land no more socialism for him. In socialism you have the state which intervenes at every step with its officials who rob money.

Disciple : The officials know the Government machinery and they so manage to keep the power in their hands.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. It is the State bureaucracy that dictates the policy irrespective of the good of the commune. In communism they hold the land for the whole community i.e. – the whole unit and each part of it is entitled to labour and have its share from the produce.

Disciple : In India we have a kind of communism in the villages. The whole village was like a big family and the lowest had his right as a member of the family. The washerman, the carpenter the black smith, the barber, all get what they needed.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the only communism that is practicable. Each such commune can be independent and many such units can be scattered all over country and they can combine or co-ordinate their activities for a common purpose.

Page 192

26th January, 1939

Disciple : It seems Barcelona – in Spain – is going. The French people are waking up at the eleventh hour.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, democracies are showing such courage at present!

Disciple : It seems, political ideas and ideals are not worth fighting for. Thousands fought for democracy and now

Page 185

they are in a hurry to give it up. Nothing seems to be permanent in the political field.

Sri Aurobindo : Quite so. All human values are half values – they are relative. They have no permanence or durability about them.

Disciple : Perhaps, if man became more of a mentalized being, he would understand things better.

Sri Aurobindo : By being mentalized? No. The difficulty that men do not follow the principles of life.

Disciple : How is that?

Sri Aurobindo : Life compromises between different elements, but mind while acting alone does not compromise. Mind takes up one thing – (one idea, or principles or anything like that) – and makes it absolute. Mind considers it as apart from and opposed to all other things.

Hegel boasted that in Europe they had succeeded in separating reason from life and you see their philosophy –  it has nothing to do with life; it is all mental gymnastics, it does not form part of life.

While in India, philosophy has always been a part of life; it has an aim.       

In the political philosophy of Europe you find, if they accept democracy, it is only democracy – all the rest is opposed to it. If monarchy, then it is only monarchy. That is what happened in Greece. They fought for democracy and opposed aristocracy and monarchy and in the end oligarchy came and monarchy – at last they were conquered by the Romans.

Disciple : Then what is the truth in all these attempts at political organization?

Page 186

Sri Aurobindo : If you want to arrive at something true and lasting, you have to look at life and learn from it. That is to say, you must learn the nature of the opposition and contradictions and then reconcile them.

As regards government, life shows that there is a truth in monarchy – whether hereditary or elective. That is to say, there is a man at the top who governs. Life also shows that there is a truth in aristocracy, whether it is of strong or rich men – that of money or intellect.

The current fiction is, it is the majority that rules. Life also shows that the rule of the kind or of the aristocracy should be with the consent – silent or vocal – of the people who form the mass.

In ancient India, they recognized the truth of these things. That is why India has lasted through millenniums and China also. English politics is successful because they have always found one man or two who had the power to lead the minority of the ruling class. During Victorian period it was either Gladstone or Disraeli, and even when the party in power changes in England the other party that comes to power does not change things radically. They continue the same policy with a slight modification.

In France no government lasts, sometimes it changes within a few days! The new government is a repetition of the one it replaces. Blum is one who wanted to do something radical but he was knocked out.

Disciple : Did you see Subhas's statement?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. He seems to have a queer logic; because the Right has a majority so, the president should be from the minority. And what is the sense in saying :  we will fight to the core? I can understand that kind of idea if you are going to have revolution. Then there can be no

Page 187

compromise. But once you have accepted compromise there is no meaning in that statement. One has to work out on the basis of what one has gained. Satyamurty's idea of federation seems all right to me if the States' people are given some representation in the centre and the Viceroy exercises no veto. It would then practically amount to -rule.

Disciple : The Viceroy's long stay in Bombay seems significant. I think, there is something behind it. He may want to settle the office-bearers for the federation.

Sri Aurobindo : The Bombay Ministry seems to be working efficiently. They have escaped the socialists trap. These socialists do not know what is socialism.

Disciple : There were many humourous speeches in the Sindh-assembly. The League has been exposed.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, the Sindh Premier – I always forget his name – seems to be a strong man and stands up for his ideas at the risk of unpopularity. The Sindh Muslims were anxious to join the Congress. The Congress should try to do something to make a coalition there.

The Congress ministries are successful almost everywhere. That is an indication of the power to govern if powers are given.

Disciple : Only Bengal and Punjab remain under Muslim League influence.

Sri Aurobindo : The Muslim League is not so strong in Bengal – there is the Praja party there. In the Punjab Sikandar Hayat Khan seems to be an able man. Only, in U. P. the Muslim League seems strong.

Disciple : I wonder how Fazlul Haque could become the Premier. Perhaps Nazimuddin may be more capable.

Page 188

Sri Aurobindo : He won't make a popular figure. Haque can turn as circumstances require. All these Muslims of the League seem to be a lot of self-seekers.

Disciple : I do not understand why the Congress opened negotiations with the League. It has been giving an undue importance.

Sri Aurobindo : How is it that the Congress is so weak in the Punjab?

Disciple : Because of the Socialists and the old Congress people fighting each other. The Jayapur affair is starting again. Bajaj is going to offer Satyagraha. It seems, Mahatma has given his approval.

Sri Aurobindo : Since he is a congressman I suppose the Congress will have to back him. If the State people get power the princes will have no work but to sign papers and shoot animals.

Disciple : Where will they shoot? The forests are being depleted of animals.

Sri Aurobindo : The forests have to be preserved and also the wild life. China destroyed all her forests and the result is there is flood every year.

Disciple : There are so many Maharajas, Chiefs, Nawabs all over India.

Sri Aurobindo : Germany was like that at one time. Napoleon swept away half of the number and the last war swept off another half. Japan also had many princes but they voluntarily abdicated their power. The Japanese are not greedy for money. They can easily sacrifice if they find it is their duty to sacrifice – of course, duty to the country.

Page 189

Disciple : How far back in history do they go?

Sri Aurobindo : The Mikado claims to be the descendant of the Goddess of the Sun. The Mikado Maigi believed in it and he used to do what was necessary after feeling the inspiration within him.

There are two types of features among the Japanese :  one tall and with a long nose and fine aristocratic face, and another the 'Inune' who came from Australia and Polynesia. It was the tall people with classical features that gave Samurai Culture to Japan. I met a Japanese painter at Tagore's place – he was of the first type – what magnificent features! The other is the usual Mongolian type.

Disciple : The dictator's psychology is an authority complex. People under the dictator feel they are great and that the dictator – in this case Hitler – is fighting for them, not they who fight for him. Perhaps the dictators find a competitor in God and religion. So they try to crush religion.

Sri Aurobindo : But Mussolini did not crush religion in Italy, though Kemal and Stalin did. Mussolini on the contrary has given more power to the Pope in the Vatican. He has practically recognized the Roman Church as the State religion.

Disciple : I read in a newspaper that Kemal in his intoxicated condition slapped an Egyptian because he came to a dinner party with a fez on.

Sri Aurobindo : Have you not heard the story of a journalist?

Disciple : No.

Sri Aurobindo : Well, a young journalist of Turkey criticized the government saying; Turkey is governed by a number

Page 190

of drunkards. Kemal came to know of it. Next day, the journalist received an invitation to dinner. He was trembling as to what was coming. After dinner was over Kemal told him :  Young man, you are quite mistaken in saying that Turkey is governed by a number of drunkards. It is not true. Turkey is governed by one drunkard.

Disciple : Kemal at one time tried to play off Italy against Russia.

Sri Aurobindo : But Russia has all along helped Turkey.

Disciple : Stalin forced the collectivization of farming among the Ukrainians. The farmers did not like it. So, to spite the government they collected from the farmers only what they required for themselves for the year; they did not collect the crop for the government. Stalin came to know about it. In the meantime the crop standing in the fields was destroyed by cold and frost. He sent down his officials and they attached the corn collected by the farmers as state dues. The result was famine. The farmers starved and died by the thousands. Stalin did no help; he allowed them to die. He was afraid that once he submitted to them there would be no collectivization anywhere.

Sri Aurobindo : That is what happens when socialism comes. Communism is different. If they had been successful in carrying out the original idea of the Soviets then it would have been a great success. Mussolini at first tried to form corporate state but he also gave it up later on.

Disciple : The Socialists did not succeed in breaking the trade-unions in Ahmedabad, which are under the Congress.

Sri Aurobindo : Socialism has no chance with the Indian peasant. He will side with you so long as you promise him land and want to end the land-lord system. But once

Page 191

he has got the land no more socialism for him. In socialism you have the state which intervenes at every step with its officials who rob money.

Disciple : The officials know the Government machinery and they so manage to keep the power in their hands.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. It is the State bureaucracy that dictates the policy irrespective of the good of the commune. In communism they hold the land for the whole community i.e. – the whole unit and each part of it is entitled to labour and have its share from the produce.

Disciple : In India we have a kind of communism in the villages. The whole village was like a big family and the lowest had his right as a member of the family. The washerman, the carpenter the black smith, the barber, all get what they needed.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the only communism that is practicable. Each such commune can be independent and many such units can be scattered all over country and they can combine or co-ordinate their activities for a common purpose.

Page 192