Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

NOVEMBER, 1940

28th November, 1940

Letters from Kabul and from Ella Maillard; change in attitude to Gabriel; effective representation of Ella. Gandhi's will – or political will was read (brought by Abhaya Deva) distributed to Gandhi Seva Sangh – spoken orally and taken down; after hearing the whole letter Sri Aurobindo said :

Something in him takes delight in suffering for its own sake. Even the prospect of suffering seems to please him though he puts in a lot of ethics with his justification, the fact is that something in him enjoys suffering.

2. Secondly, if he knows that to the British Government 50 Gandhis would not matter – what does he propose then to achieve politically by his fast? He even knows that the British people are not even going to consider the possibility of Ahimsa!

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It is the Christian idea that has taken hold of him. Besides he seems to think that after him his theory and creed of non-violence would continue. I don't think so. A few people would be there but anything like a wide scale influence like that of his personality does not seem possible.

I don't object to the world-order but I object to Hitler's world order. "Psychology" would remain unpublished so long as the war lasts because I must known whether Hitler goes up or goes down.

All European publications have been stopped on account of the war.

My contribution to the war fund was not my taking part in politics. It was in view of much wider issues which I have spoken of in my letter, – the issues of human culture and individual and national liberty; and as the English are the only race that stand up for it, I support them.

"Justice" – Englishmen won't be acting according to justice, why should they? Which nation acts on the principles of justice? Why should we expect them to fulfill a standard which we ourselves can't satisfy.

Indian problem has been very badly bungled by Jinnah, and Congress and Mahasabha. They have not been able to play their cards well. That is why they are losing the game.

What is justice after all? To the Socialist denial of all property, liquidation of capitalism is justice. To the capitalist something else is justice.

Congress is asking for freedom of expression but it does not give its own members freedom to express their ideas, if they are against their official policy.

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Two ways of securing freedoms by force, by revolution – that cannot succeed so long as we have Jinnahs etc. The only other course is compromise. There you have to give and take, – know your opponent. Generally, the English do not want to go to the extreme or to be continuously repressing. After a time they like to come to a compromise. Generally they arrange the bargain in such a way that they gain in the compromise. They want to be respected. They don't like to be called bad.

Fast and Satyagraha changing the heart of the opponent is absurd. What it can do is to exert pressure and secure some concession.

But it can't succeed if it challenges the very existence of the other force. For instance, Gandhi succeeded in settling the labour question because the capitalists did not want to earn public obloquy. So they gave concession to his demands. But suppose instead of some demands of amelioration he had asked them to hand over the mills to the workers then he would not have succeeded.

All the talk of change of heart is absurd. If it changes anything, it may change only the mind – not the heart. The man may not like to face the consequences and so would give in without changing the heart.

The English have also some constitutional mind. So once they give, they don't go back upon their word. They don't want anyone else to walk into India when they walk out of it. They are afraid of that happening if they leave India now. It would certainly mean civil war and any other power can walk into India. They have proclaimed that they would grant Dominion Status which amounts to Independence except one or two matters like defense and foreign affairs.

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They don't care for world opinion or India because the opinion they consider important is American opinion. But as all are afraid of Hitler they won't at present speak against England for her Indian Policy. And also they are not quite wrong when they say that the Indians must settle their own differences. The Lucknow pact has become a great political blunder. The Mahommedans, – they want to rule India.

If Gandhi undertakes his fast for self purification or for spiritual end it is something, but how can he gain political power by that?

It is the British Government that gives way to such pressure. Against Germany, Japan, Russia or even France that has no chance. Virawala a match for Gandhi. Vallabhbhai's life attempted after Amreli and Rajkot.

Jail going is useful because it can help a nation in solidifying itself and in organizing itself. But if the programme is carried out ultimately, the ruling power, if it is oppressive, can be thrown out by the organization etc.

29th November, 1940

Kasturbhai's Arvind Mills of Ahmedabad was using Sri Aurobindo's picture on their products, without any permission and without paying any consideration. One of the pictures was shown to Sri Aurobindo and it was represented to him that legal action could be taken against the Mills. On seeing the picture Sri Aurobindo said :

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"The other one made me look like a criminal. This one makes me look like an imbecile – not only the eyes but the mouth; – can one do these things?"

Sri Aurobindo did not want to press the legal aspect of the matter.

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