Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

AUGUST 1940

3rd August, 1940

There was a letter from K. P. to Dilip in which he expressed his opinions and ideas about the present war, His points were : –   

1. The war is already fought and decided on the inner planes.

2. Mankind is responsible for the rise of the Asuric forces.

3. Each much fight the lower forces and side with the Divine in himself. After reading the letter Sri Aurobindo said : It is quite alright that the struggle between the forces is worked out on other planes before it is projected here.

Disciple : He means like the Gita where Sri Krishna says that Kauravas were already killed.

Disciple : So the result is already decided.

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Sri Aurobindo : I would not admit as he seems to admit that everything was fixed. Of course, the issue has been decided by the Divine vision and there can be no change in that. But nobody knows that decision of the Divine. And when there is a struggle between the forces it is always possible to change the balance of forces. True, things are decided above and happen in the physical afterwards, but not exactly in the same way. There can be a variation. Of course, there can be no variation in what is decided by the Supreme Vision.

In a way, it is quite true that we mankind have made the world what it is.

Disciple : K. P. seems to say that Hitler is a result of tendencies which men have been harbouring in themselves. He forgets that the being behind him may also be responsible for spreading the influence.

Disciple : K. P. feels that England will not be defeated in this war because he says they have some purpose to fulfill in the world. So long as they do that they will not be defeated.

Sri Aurobindo : That is true, though certain forces have been working for the destruction of the British Empire. I myself once worked for it but it is quite possible to change the action because if the same result can be achieved in a different manner then the destruction of the British Empire is not necessary. I myself would not have minded any result to the British Empire, if its destruction did not mean victory for Hitler. But that changes the whole aspect.

Disciple : Is this not all due to the necessity of a new world order?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, evidently. Question is what is going to be the world-order and how is it to be brought about?

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Sri Aurobindo then spoke of the psychic attitude to be adopted by every one. That is useful for attaining much higher spiritual result. There have always been a small number of people who have embodied that change. But I do not know how that can change the whole world conditions. Or perhaps by psychic he means mental and vital changes. Even that I don't know how they can come about if Hitler wins. For the present, everybody seems to be taking refuge in cowardice and trying to save his own skin and if the change desired is to come after Hitler wins then perhaps it would be after great suffering and through reactions on the part of men to that oppression, or even it may not come at all, or come after the Pralaya, whereas by changing the balance of forces the British Empire can be saved, and if it can win then the new order might take place more quietly and also the mental and vital changes necessary will take place without much disturbance and so much destruction.

Disciple : Do you mean that the Supreme Vision's decision can be different from the decision of the subtle worlds?

Sri Aurobindo : Not necessarily, but between the vision of the Supreme and its realization here, there are many possible variations. In fact, if you speak of "destiny" then you must know that there are different layers of destiny. There is, for instance what the astrologers call the destiny in the physical. There can also be destiny in the vital. By bringing vital force into play the destiny in the physical can be changed. So also by bringing mental forces into play – though it is more difficult – what seems to be the vital destiny can be changed. That is why astrologers hardly prove themselves right because they look at the physical whereas there can be a variation in the play of forces of the mental, vital and physical planes. On these a certain play of forces may show as if the destiny was in favour of one or the other group of forces. And this balance can be changed.

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Disciple : But if the Supreme vision is there then the new order is bound to come. Is it not?

Disciple : But at present before the Supreme has a chance there are many others who are ready with their own ideas of the new order.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, everybody seems to be busy with his own world-order and nobody knows about the decision of the Supreme.

Disciple : But how can you say nobody knows? You said that Supramental descent is bound to come.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but we have not yet become Supramental. I know it will come, but I have not fixed the date for it. It may be to-morrow. I don't know!

Disciple : It seems that Mother said to some one that the Light will descend when there will be all darkness around and no possibility in sight for man.

Sri Aurobindo : That was not her own words. She was only repeating an ancient prophecy.

Disciple : I suppose world is sufficiently dark even now, for it is only England that is standing in the way of Hitler's triumph.

Sri Aurobindo : Did you not see the Mother's prayer for this year? It is quite clear; at any rate, those who received it in France perhaps know now what it meant.

18th August, 1940

There was a talk about the music of Bhismadeva. N started the topic by stating that Tagore long ago started a campaign against classical music saying that it was

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dead. The reason he gave was that classical music was only a performance of mere technic and cleverness; there was no soul in it. Tagore therefore started emphasizing the importance of words and their meaning in music. He almost said that words were preferable to notes. Even Dilip strongly supported this argument of Tagore in his articles.

Sri Aurobindo : If it was only the exercise and exhibition of technique and mere skill on the part of the classical musician, then there was no real music in it.

Disciple : For musical appreciation the sound value, the rhythm, harmony etc. are quite enough. There is no need of words or meaning for the appreciation of music.

Sri Aurobindo : Like all other arts the music has its own medium – it is sound – it stands by itself. If it depended on words or on poetry then it would be poetical music but not pure music.

Disciple : The classical musicians were only performing the gymnastics of sound and Tagore said that there was need of fine and beautiful words for music.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but if it is gymnastics of sound it is not music. Music then would be only a commentary on words!

Disciple : They say that the remedy for reviving music is to give value to word and meaning.

Sri Aurobindo : The conditions are such because classical music has degenerated but it does not mean that it should not be revived; and the remedy is not to give value to words or poetry, but to restore the soul of music. If words are indispensable to the appreciation of music then how can an Englishman hear Italian music and appreciate it? – because he does not understand a word of music.

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Disciple : Tagore is very particular about the tune of his own songs and nobody is allowed to make any change in the notation of his songs. That is why Dilip does not sing his song.

Sri Aurobindo : I believe Tagore is not much of a musician, is he?

Disciple : By no means, because he happens to be great man in other things and has a big name therefore nobody opposes his claims in fields where he does not know anything.

Sri Aurobindo : It is more or less like his paintings.

Disciple : Not so bad nor so extravagant perhaps.

Disciple : Dilip also thinks that beautiful words are necessary for music.

Sri Aurobindo : That is because he is more of a singer than a musician. Singing is an art by itself.

Disciple : Appreciation of pure music requires also training.

Disciple : Everybody cannot appreciate or form a critical judgement about music. There has to be training and also aesthetic faculty. One can see in Bhishmadave and Biren that they have not merely technical perfection and rhythm but also they enter into the spirit of music. And there one can see that it is the notes, – the musical value of notes – that create the atmosphere specially in the case of Biren who merely by playing on string instrument succeeds in creating a fine atmosphere.

Sri Aurobindo : If words were indispensable to music then most of the European and the best of it which is without words would not be called music at all. In pure music words are absolutely not necessary. If you can't have

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pure music without word then one can also say that one cannot paint a subject which is not literary.

Disciple : Beethoven's symphonies are only musical notations and played with the violin and piano. One of the reasons why North Indians fail, or find it difficult, to appreciate South Indian Music is because they are prevented by words; also perhaps because South Indian Music is more intellectual. When you hear B's singing you see that he is conscious of the notes only, and the musical value of them – he is not conscious of the words and their meaning. And whatever he wants to express in his music either an emotion or a state of consciousness he does it through notes and not through words. His very gestures show that he is working with notes.

Sri Aurobindo : It is fortunate that modern European music has not suffered the same fate as modernist painting and poetry; the moderns have not bee able to spoil the European music. It is difficult to have cubism in music.

Disciple : It is difficult to throw about cubes of sound because they are sure to hurt the ear.

Disciple : Some people say that Dilip's music is more spiritual while that of BH and other musicians is not spiritual.

Disciple : That is because Dilip is singing religious songs and Bhajans.

Disciple : Can pure music be spiritual?

Sri Aurobindo : Of course.

Disciple : What I have found in Dilip's music is that the atmosphere he creates is not due to his music but to something else, – perhaps to his personality or the being that is in him. I have also seen that if one goes to his music

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with the idea of expecting sound values and rhythms he is likely to be disappointed.

Disciple : So far as the spiritual atmosphere is concerned he does not require a great musician to produce it. A spiritual person singing a very ordinary song can create a spiritual atmosphere.

Sri Aurobindo : That is true. Similar is the case with a poem which may be common-place but a clever elocutionist can make much out of it.

That is why I do not grant the contention of the modernist poet who says that in order to appreciate his rhythm you must hear the poem recited by him. A clever elocutionist can produce a rhythm where there is none in the original.

Disciple : Some people say that they like Dilip's poetry when he recites it but they cannot appreciate it when they read it themselves. It is also difficult to appreciate his poetry unless one known the rhythms and new turns which he has introduced, because his rhythms are quite different from those of Tagore.

Sri Aurobindo : What I have found in Dilip's poetry is that it is mental poetry connected with the   Bengali poetry of pre-Tagorian era. Perhaps it is due to his father's influence which was also intellectual. What I mean to say is that Tagore introduced a new element of feeling and imagination in Bengali poetry; as he is a genius his poetry is beautiful but much of what is written under Tagore's influence is wishy-washy stuff, that is to say, it is poetry without any backbone. There is no sound experience behind it. Even in Tagore you find that his idea is diffused into seventy or eighty lines yet it does not come out clearly, though the idea is there. In pre-Tagorian poetry they had clear intellectual ideas to express and they expressed them poetically. Dilip's poetry has two things : the subject and

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the treatment. Generally the subject is an idea which he develops, an intellectual thing which he expresses in poetic form; and his technique is a departure both from Tagore and the old tradition.

Disciple : In his novel-writing also it is found that Shorot Chatterji was far superior to Tagore as a story writer.

Disciple : But he criticized Dilip's story on the ground that there was very little action in his story. In fact he said that the story must have a story, not mere discussions. But in Tagore's own story there is very little action. They are also what are called the intellectual novels.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, I found in Dilip's story, when I turned over the pages, that somebody or other was talking on every page.

Disciple : Or sometimes there are long letters in the novel and interminable replies.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, all sorts of things that are not native to the purpose of the novel are being put into it by the moderns. So, instead of writing a pamphlet they write a novel, instead of delivering a sermon they write a story, even they write a story for journalistic purpose. It is like Bernard Shaw writing his dramas. All his characters are meant only to represent different sides of questions which he takes up in his drama.

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