Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

12-9-1924

The Tarakeshwar affair was being settled. The first terms that were proposed did not meet with Sri Aurobindo's

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approval. But next day an open letter from Swami Vishwananda appeared agreeing with C.R. Das : The Mahant abdicates in favour of Prabhat Giri and the power of management of the temple rests with a committee that can, if necessary, dismiss the Mahant and the committee would appoint a separate Manager of estates.

To-day (the 13th) Sri Aurobindo approved of these terms. "If we have our own Government we could throw out the Mahant and settle the affair once for all; but under a foreign rule if Das can establish the authority of the committee legally, it would be the cleverest thing to do, so that in case of emergency the committee can enforce its mandate by law. As it is, the whole law is against the public.

After all Das is a man who "muddles through" – he acts on his intuitions and impulses and somehow muddles through a difficulty.

Disciple : He is very impulsive.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, impulses are vital intuitions. Not that he commits no mistakes. He goes on committing mis­takes and tries to rectify them and somehow comes to "something".

Disciple : He may bungle into Swaraj.

Sri Aurobindo : If not Swaraj, he may stumble into some way towards it. There are some people like Mustafa Kamal who never commit a mistake and everything about them is organised. Das is not that type.

Disciple : Kamal lords it over everyone and I am afraid that makes him unpopular.

Sri Aurobindo : That, every strong man does.

Disciple : Even his lieutenants try to follow him in that respect and people find it difficult to get on with them.

Sri Aurobindo (after a time) : That is perhaps inevitable when you require people who will take the extreme step.

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Such men can hardly remain calm and yet be extre­mists. Few can be extremists while retaining their calmness."

An article in the Young India gave the list of books Mahatmaji read in jail.

Disciple : It contains at the end Gandhiji's estimate of Christianity; he differs, he says, from orthodox Christia­nity. He believes in the symbolic interpretation of Christ, Mary and the Holy Ghost.

Sri Aurobindo : A lot of Christians also believe the same.

Disciple : He also believes that everyone must be crucified in order to attain Christhood; he would not, he says, put a limited interpretation on the "Sermon on the Mount". But he finds Hinduism quite sufficient for his spiritual development. He has read the Upanishads and finds them very grand, but he cannot agree with some of their ideas, he finds them difficult to understand even.

Sri Aurobindo : All that could hardly prove that he is not a Christian in his make.

Disciple : He has written a long paragraph on the Maha-bharata. He finds it a great poem, and he is especially charmed by the poet's consistently working out the law of Karma (cause and effect). The mighty Krishna dies like-an-ordinary-man; the great Arjuna is robbed by the Kabas – his Gandiva, the famous bow, notwith­standing; and even Dharmaraja is made to feel the unpleasant odour of hell for having lowered the ideal of Truth.

Sri Aurobindo : What is there the cause and what is the effect ? One man strikes the blow and the other dies, so one is the cause and the other is the effect !

Disciple : He has also read Goethe's Faust and finds that

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the heroine (Henrietta) could not find peace until she took to the spinning-wheel.

Sri Aurobindo : My God ! (turning to a Disciple) Do you know Mrs. Besant, Jaykar and Natarajan have decided to spin ?

Disciple : It is a fine trio ! I do not know how long their enthusiasm is going to last.

Disciple : Now the proposal made by the Mahatma is very simple.

Sri Aurobindo : , Yes. Instead of four annas you have to give two thousand yards per month.

Disciple : Those who do not will cease to be members of the Congress.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, that is the penalty.

Disciple : Penalty for whom ? the man or the Congress ?

Disciple : Have you not used the word "wheel" in your writings in the Arya ? We may send the cutting to the Mahatma !

Sri Aurobindo . I may have used "Brahman's wheel" or some such expression.

Disciple : Does it not turn ?

Sri Aurobindo : It turns out men and also Gandhis.

23-10-1925

There was a report in the press about Mahatma Gandhi's going to Cutch. He seemed to believe that he was approaching his death. There was a statement that he was going to Cutch to take rest and also to attend to the grievances of the Cutch people.

Disciple : His idea is that he would like to do "spiritual" work for the country.

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Disciple : Nowadays "spiritual" is a word of which the meaning is known to very few people.

Sri Aurobindo : In ancient India they knew the meaning. But now obviously the Indians have got the European idea of spirituality. It is not a very deep idea. If you have strong emotion, or strong passion, or a particular type of thoughts – that is what they call spirituality. Or it is something bound up with ethics, morality and philanthrophy. ,

In Europe they use the word "spirit" in contrast to "matter". Whatever is not matter is spirit; and so if any man has high mental ideals and an aesthetic turn of mind or some ideas of social service they call him "spiritual".

Disciple : When I first came across the use of the word "femme spirituelle" in France during the first World War, I took it in the Indian sense and it was later on that I came to know that it only meant any "witty" or "vivacious" girl.

Sri Aurobindo : Because in French "esprit" means "mind", "wit" and such other things.

Disciple : During the war a doctor – probably Dr. Lebon – of France took photographs of departed spirits and immediately after the war there was a mania in France for consulting "spiritualists", to get messages from the departed souls.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, that is another definition of "spiri­tuality", or rather "spiritualism", in Europe.

Disciple : The one thing they accept is the physical body and in France they have come to accept vital force or "living matter".

Sri Aurobindo : The French find it difficult to go beyond the intellect. Other European nations are no better,, They are satisfied if they get a "proof". Newman saw that evidence does not prove anything and that you

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can prove what you want by using the same evidence. They can't understand that the laws governing the planes behind the physical plane may be quite different from those that obtain here.

For instance, Oliver Lodge is a great scientist and he asserts that the voice which came to him was that of Raymond, his son, who had died in the war. He says that it is proved beyond doubt because it spoke in the way in which his son used to speak and recounted things which only Raymond knew and also spoke about certain family matters,

Now, if a voice, or a spirit, comes to you and says that it is so and so, it does not, in the least, mean that it is that man. Any spirit from that plane can come and figure as that man. Europeans can't believe that a being on the subtle planes can have knowledge of things by means which are quite different from those we have to use. It can know many things. Not only that, it can catch hold of the "astral" body "and the nervous form of the individual and figure before you. But that would not prove that it is that man. You can even take its photograph perhaps. But that is not the astral or the subtle body. It is the • body just behind the physical that you see.

But Europeans are mere children in these things. They take the laws of this plane and try to apply them to the subtle planes. Col. Wedgewood, when he came here, could not understand anything when someone told him that I was doing "spiritual work". He asked :

"What is spirituality ?" But in spite of an explanation he could not understand what spirituality is. If Euro­peans had to pass through the experience of the stone-throwing incident which occured in 41 Rue Francois Martin, they would at Qnce take the incident as a proof of some spirit throwing it. In fact, it only proves that

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"stones fell" and that "they were thrown by some agency without the use of physical means". That is all you can say. It is a matter of experience; one has oneself to enter into these planes and find out the-laws obtaining there. There are so many possibilities and you have yet to find out which is the fact in a particular case.

7-4-1926

There was a reference to a letter of Lord Reading to the Nizam of Hyderabad in which he says : "No Indian State can deal with the British on terms of political equality and that the British was the Paramount power in India."

Disciple : This time the Indian Government has been outspoken to the Indian princes probably because other princes also have begun to insist on the terms of their treaties being observed. The Gaekwad, for ins­tance, asked back Kathiawad the other day. The Indian Government wants to prevent such a movement among the princes.

Sri Aurobindo : The Indian princes may be anything per­sonally, but as a class they lack courage and political wisdom.

Disciple : Taraknath Das in his book points out that the Indian princes could help in the work of national regene­ration. They could even take part in international politics.

Sri Aurobindo : Many things are desirable, but they do not always come true. No doubt, if the princes were poli­ticians they could hasten the march of freedom to a very great extent. They could create real centres of power within their dominions which would serve when the time for revolution came. That was the idea in the

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Gaekwad's mind when he began but it was not carried through.

Disciple : There was a Praja Mandal which recently protested against the increase of taxes.

Sri Aurobindo : I do not mean that the Indian States must adopt parliamentary institutions, or even that India must copy them from Europe. You think that the oppo­sition between the State and the popular party must always be there. That is the European idea. It is not necessary to have that kind of opposition at all.

Disciple : Was there no such thing in ancient India ?

Sri Aurobindo : There was; you need not have the same thing to-day. In India the communal freedom was very great. The communities had great powers and the State had no autocratic authority. The State was a kind of general supervising agency of all the commu­nities. What these modern princes can do is to create great centres of life amongst their subjects, so that they may be the seats of real power and life of the nation. The princes need not take part as leaders; but they can help the growth of the nation.

Disciple : In olden times, had the villages also such great powers ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, they had; it is the European idea that makes you think that the parliamentary form or consti­tution is the best. We had great communal liberty and the communities were the centres of power and of national life. The king could not infringe the right of the commune.

Disciple : The communities must be strong and living enough not to allow their rights to be snatched away.

Sri Aurobindo : It was so; the king had a continuity of policy from father to son and he could not infringe the rights of the communes; and if these rights were interfered with the people at once made themselves felt.

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That was the form which the genius of the race had evolved. You think that this parliamentary govern­ment is the best form of government. In fact, that form has been a success nowhere except in England. In France, it is worse, in America, in spite of their being an Anglo-Saxon race, it has not succeeded.

Disciple : In Japan, is it the European form ?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't think so; in Italy and in South Europe the parliamentary form is there but they all copied the German constitution and there is no reality behind the form.

I don't understand why everything should be centra­lised as in the parliamentary constitution. We must have different, numerous centres of culture and power, full of national life, spread all over the country and they must have political freedom to develop themselves.

Disciple : Village organisation can also help in the creation of such centres.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. But it is not by lectures and sermo­nising to the village people, as we are trying to do now.

Disciple : I have letters from a friend informing me that the organisation of co-operative societies has succeeded in Gujarat.

Sri Aurobindo : If you want to work in the village, you must take to a natural profession, go and settle down among the village people and be one of them. When they see that you are a practical man they will begin to trust you. If you go there and work hard for ten or fifteen years you will gain your status and you will be able to do something because they will be prepared to listen to you.

The parliamentary form would be hardly suitable for our people. Of course, it is not necessary that you should have to-day the same old forms. But you can take

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the line of evolution and follow the bent of the genius of the race.

29-6-1926

Disciple : What is the difference between European and Indian Politics ?

Sri Aurobindo : If you mean the politics of India today then there is absolutely no difference. It is a bad copy of Western politics, taking any catch-words, often even without any reference to realities. For instance, you introduce parliamentarian liberalism or the labour movement because Europe has got them. But there it is very real while here it is merely an idea and a name. Parliamentarianism is based upon educating public opinion and there the agitation has a direct bearing on their government and they have got to do it to take the masses with them at the polls. In India while we take up this form of agitation, of making a big noise, we forget that they have their government while here it is not ours and therefore the agitation is futile.

There are three elements in European politics.

1. Mental idea or ideal of political -and social life.

2. Interest of the communities or .classes.

3. Machinery of Government.

Now, in Europe people believe and think that if they succeed in bringing about a definite form of Govern­ment on the lines of certain ideals such as Democracy, Monarchy, Socialism, Communism etc, then all the problems of humanity will be solved. They follow a mental ideal which they think to be the only truth and they create public opinion and try to catch, or get hold of, the machinery of the State. .

Among all the conflicting ideals none has yet proved successful. It was thought that democracy

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would be the most successful form but after experience it is proved that it is far from being a success.

Next comes the interest of individuals and classes. It is really the interest which gets the better of the mental ideal and succeeds in getting hold of the machinery of the State, i.e., power.

In the beginning it was the priest and the monarch with his aristocracy who ruled. Then the aristocracy, the fighting class, with the common man under it, and then came the middle class, the merchant class, which is now having the machinery of power under what is called Democracy. And now there is the effort in countries like Russia where the proletariat are trying to rule.

Now for Machinery of the State. It is rigid and hard centralisation and mechanization of the life of the nation perfectly organised in all details to meet an aggression, to defend and to expand.

In the old Indian collective life the three Indian things were : (1) spontaneously growing free communal units; (2) the Dharma-idea; (3) harmonising of national life by a central agency. In India we had nothing of the mental ideal in politics. We had a spontaneous and a free growth of communities developing on their own lines. It was not so much a mental idea as an inner impulse or feeling, to express life in a particular form. Each such communal form of life – the village, .the town, etc, which formed the unit of national life, was left free in its own internal management. The central authority never interfered with it.

There was not the idea of "interest" in India as in Europe, i.e., each community was not fighting for its own interest; but there was the idea of Dharma, the function which the individual and the community has to fulfil in the larger nation.al life, There, were

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caste organisations not based upon a religio-social basis as we find nowadays; they were more or less groups organised for a communal life. There were also religious communities like the Buddhists, the Jains, etc. Each followed its own law – Swadharma – unham­pered by the State. The State recognised the necessity of allowing such various forms of life to develop freely in order to give to the national spirit a richer expression.

Then over the two there was the central authority, whose function was not so much to legislate as to harmo­nise and see that everything was going on all right. It was administered by a Raja in cases, also, an elected head of the clan, as in the instance of Gautama Buddha. Each ruled over either a small State or a group of small States or republics. One was not at the head to put his hand over all organisations and keep them down. If he interfered with them he was deposed because each of these organisations had its own laws which had been established for long ages.

The machinery of the State also was not so mechanical as in the West – it was plastic and elastic.

This organisation we find in history perfected in the reign of Ghandragupta and the Maurya dynasty. The period preceding this must have been a period o| great political development in India. Every department of national life, we can see, was in charge of a board or a committee with a minister at the head and each board looked after what we now would call its own department and was left free from undue interference of the Central authority. The change of kings left these boards untouched and unaffected in their work. An organisation similar to that was found in the Town and in the Village and it was this organisation that was taken up by the Madans when they came and it is that which the English also have taken up. The idea

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of the King as the absolute monarch was never an Indian idea. It was brought from Central Asia by the Madans.

The English in accepting this system have disfigured it considerably. They have found ways to put their hand on and grasp all the old organisations, using them merely as channels to establish more thoroughly the authority of the Central Power. They discouraged every free organisation and every attempt at the manifesta­tion of the free life of the community. Now attempts are being made to have the Co-operative Societies in villages, there is an effort at, reviving the Panchayats. But these organisations cannot be revived once they have been crushed and even if they revived they would not be the same.

If the old organisation had lasted it would have been a successful rival of the modern form of government.

Disciple : Is it possible to come back to old forms in modern times ?

Sri Aurobindo : You need not come back to the old forms but you can retain the spirit which might create its own new forms.

They could not last, firstly, because there was the flagging of national energy owing to various causes. Secondly, the country was too vast and the means of com­munication not efficient enough to permit all national forces being concentrated on a particular point. Chandragupta could not have very easily reached the farthest end of his dominion so as to put all available national strength to a single purpose. If India had been a small country it would have been much more easy and with the modern means of communication I am sure it would have succeeded.

It has been a special feature of India that, she

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has to contain in her life all the most diverse elements and assimilate them. This renders her problem most intricate.

Disciple : If it. is India's destiny to assimilate all the conflicting elements, is it possible to assimilate the Madan element also?

Sri Aurobindo : Why not ? India has- assimilated elements from the Greeks, the Persians and other nations. But she assimilates only when her Central Truth is recognised by the other party, and even while assimilating she does it in such a way that the elements absorbed are no longer recognisable as foreign but become part of herself. For instance, we took from the Greek architecture, from the Persian painting etc.

The assimilation of the Madan culture also was done in the mind to a great extent and it would have perhaps gone further. But in order that the process may be complete it is necessary that a change in the Madan mentality should come. The con­flict is in the outer life and unless the Madans learn tolerance I do not think the assimilation is possible.

The Hindu is ready to tolerate. He is open to new ideas and his culture has got a wonderful capacity for assimilation, but always' provided that her Central Truth is recognised.

Disciple : Did India have the national idea in the modern sense ?

Sri Aurobindo : The "Nation" idea India never had. By that I mean the political idea of the nation. It is a modern growth. But we had in India the cultural and spiritual idea of the nation.

Disciple : Is it possible to continue the modern idea of the nation with the spontaneously growing institutions of the old times?

Sri Aurobindo : The modern political consciousness of the

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national idea has come to Europe recently. It arose either by a slow growth as in England and Japan on account of their insular position more or less, or in , response to outside pressure as with the French who got it after their conquest by the Britons. Practically, the French began to be a nation after the appearance of Joan of Arc. Up to that time England found always some allies among the French nobles. Italy got it not more than a century ago, and the Germans as late as the time of Bismarck.

This consciousness is more political than anything else and it aims at the organisation of the national forces for offence and defence. If you accept the ideal of nations going on fighting and destroying for ever, then you have to give up the cultural and spiritual free growth of the nation and follow in the footsteps of European nations.

Disciple : In America – U.S.A. – each state makes its own laws – there the central authority is not oppressive.

Disciple : But the State legislates about everything. America, in fact, is a country of laws and regulations and not free growth.

Sri Aurobindo : The present-day national spirit and the centralised mechanical organisation of the State are logical conclusions or consequences of "nations" – of "armed nations" ; you feel more and more justified in centralising everything once you have begun.

But there is no reason to suppose that the present-day ideal of nationhood which is only aggressive and defensive would last for ever. If this state of affairs is to last for ever then you can give up all hope for humanity. Only a cataclysm, in that case, can save humanity.

Disciple : If the spirit of nationalism is given up by the European nations, what will they follow ?

Sri Aurobindo : Do you want me to prophesy ? But the

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modern tendency seems : to be towards .some kind of internationalism.

Disciple : What do you think of Tagore's idea of India becoming the meeting-ground of the West and the East ?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by the meeting of the West and the East ? You mean like the meeting of the tiger and the lamb ?

Disciple : Meeting like brothers and equals.

Disciple : Why meet in India ? We can meet in London, as their brother ! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : We in India take time to assimilate and put into life this new national idea of the West. Other Asiatic nations like the Japanese and the Turks have been able to catch it. There is a great difference between the Indian and the Japanese mind. The Japanese have got the mental discipline and capacity to organise. We in India have not that sort of ordered and practical mind. In Japan everyone lives for the Mikado and the Mikado is the symbol of the nation – he embodies the spirit of the nation. Everyone is prepared to die for him. This we could never have in India ; Japan was more feudal in its past than any other Asiatic nation.

Disciple : Is there no similarity between the political insti­tutions of the Middle Ages and the organisations of Chandragupta in India ?

Sri Aurobindo : There is only a superficial resemblance.; We had no feudalism as it was practised in Europe.

Disciple : Was there no penal system in ancient India ?

Sri Aurobindo : There were no jails as we have them now.

Disciple : No jails !

Disciple : What will non-co-operators do ?

Disciple : The laws of Manu – do they represent the ancient penal code of the past ?

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Sri Aurobindo : Manusmriti is a compilation made by the Brahmins and it is not very old. It was, I believe, somewhere about the first century that the laws were compiled. They must be embodying, of course, the former laws. There were punishments in those days, fines, corporal punishments, mutilation and even capital punishment.

Disciple : If we had all these things, why have we Indians come to our present condition ?

Sri Aurobindo : Present-day Indians have got nothing to boast of from their past. Indian culture to-day is in the most abject condition, like the fort of Jinji – one pillar standing here, and another ceiling there and some hall out of recognition somewhere !

4-8-1926

Disciple : The word "Dharma" has come to mean "religion", though the original sense is not that. It is the law of being – social or moral – which sustains the being. Is the old classification of men in four orders, according to the peculiar Dharma of each, tenable now ? Can each human being have the characteristics of the four orders ?

Sri Aurobindo : There is infinite possibility. So the potentiality of all the four castes is in every man, but that does not exist as a fact. No classification can be perfect so long as man is living in the mental consciousness. It is not possible to classify all natures into four orders. So we have come to the present confusion because it is regulated by birth. Of course, there are tradition, training, culture and atmosphere which tend to give the stamp of nature.

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But then the economic classification set aside the one according to inherent inborn nature. Profession then became the mark of the caste. Now, even this has broken down – what continues as caste is meaningless. Many meaningless things continue in humanity.

Before Buddha there were Kshatriyas in Bengal. When Buddhism collapsed there remained two castes – Brahmins and Shudras – other castes rightly resented being called "Shudras". In old times the agriculturist, the trader and the craftsmen were all Vaishyas.

Disciple : Nowadays there is the democratic ideal.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. In the democratic ideal all are inherently equal. Now they say we must give equal opportunity to all – that is possible; there was a hierarchy in India and in Feudal Europe.

But where is democracy even today ? It is a name which simply covers up the inequalities. All human ideals move round in a vicious circle. First, a hierarchy starts the culture – the start, generally, is with knowledge and spiritual experience. Then the culture spreads down to the people and in so doing it depreciates. Then a general levelling down takes place and there comes democracy. Then a hierarchy comes in and the circle starts again.

Disciple : But is there a goal for humanity ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there is a goal, and humanity is not going towards it but round and round in a circle below, while the goal is high up.

Disciple : What can man do to get out of the circle ?

Sri Aurobindo : To escape he must go beyond humanity. In the case of individuals attempts up till now have succeeded. But no effort has succeeded in making it a part of the earth-nature.

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8-9-1926

Disciple : What are .the possibilities of industrialism in India ?

Sri Aurobindo : About that you can say as much as I. that do you mean by industrialism ?

Disciple : I mean the system of large-scale production through big machines. ,

Sri Aurobindo : Big machines are bound to come. The poverty of the people can only be removed by large-scale production.

Disciple : The real question is : how to prevent life from being mechanised ?

Sri Aurobindo : That is a different question. But big machinery does not necessarily imply all the evils of industrialism.

Disciple : Even in cottage-industries men are mechanized to a certain extent.

Disciple : Yes, but cottage-industries leave the social life intact.

Sri Aurobindo : Why should the present form of social life remain intact ? New forms of social organisation will rise with the advent of large-scale production. It is the tendency of Indians towards poverty which is really responsible for their cry against machinery.

Disciple : The problem is : how to introduce big machinery and yet avoid all the evils arising out of it ?

Sri Aurobindo : The evils are bound to disappear. The different ideas and schemes suggested in Europe show that people are trying to correct the defects. Unless one enters into industrialism how can the evils be overcome ?

Disciple : Will India have to pass through all the evils of industrialism ?

Sri Aurobindo : But why should India wait till other countries

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solve the problem, so that it may imitate them afterwards ?

Disciple : How will India avoid the evils ?

Sri Aurobindo : Let her first acquire wealth. Without wealth they cannot expect to make any progress.

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