Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

VIII

Psychology

10-7-1923

Disciple : When a man leaves his body, does his soul assume another birth at once ?

Sri Aurobindo : It depends on what you mean by the "body" and by the "soul".

Disciple : It is said that the soul has to take another physi­cal life in order to complete its evolution.

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by "evolution" of the soul ? If you mean by the 'soul' the essential self then it requires no evolution.

Disciple : What is the law of connection between the living and the dead ?

Sri Aurobindo : Your question seems to imply that the physical manifestation is the whole manifestation. The body is merely a circumstance in the manifestation of the soul. What we mean by a world or a plane is a status of consciousness. What is then the meaning of “going"? The soul has not to travel through any space, it only goes to another status of consciousness.

Disciple : Where does the soul depart after death ?

Sri Aurobindo : Again, what do you mean by "departing" ? It only goes to another status of consciousness as I said.

Disciple : In our country the belief is that the soul after the man's death remains in a certain condition and as

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it cannot complete its evolution there it has to return to human life. The question is : how is this done ?

Sri Aurobindo : As I said, in the essential Self there is nq development, no evolution.

Disciple : In the Chhandogya Upanlshad it is said that th departed soul comes down in the form of rain an< then enters plant life and is born through women

Sri Aurobindo : Do you mean to say that whenever it rain so many souls are pouring down ? (Laughter)

Disciple : It may be a figurative way of saying, perhaps.

Sri Aurobindo : It is meant to be symbolic.

Disciple : It seems there are two purposes for which the souls descend into human birth. Perfected souls come down with the Avatar—the Incarnation—to take part in the Lila and help the world with him.

Sri Aurobindo : That is not the ordinary birth. But the question can be why there is birth at all. It is as good as asking : why was the world created ? Or you can ask : why are you and I here even though we are divine, —and, in a sense, perfect ? We can only say that the soul assumes birth in order to manifest divine perfection, to manifest the Divine in life. That is all we can say.

Disciple : One part of the question was about the machinery of rebirth, if I may put it that way.

Sri Aurobindo : There are two things : the body and the soul. The body is an ordinary formation and I suppose you know what science says about the compo­sition of Matter. It is all a play of atoms and they can be resolved into electrons and the electrons are forma­tions of certain forces in the physical world. Then you come to the vital body. That is a formation from the vital world and then you have the mental body which is again a formation from the mental world. Similarly, the psychic being is also formed. I leave ^side other minor divisions of the being. This is only

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a rough outline. If you want to go into details, the physical alone has five planes and so on in other parts. Then you come to the Soul. Ordinarily the Soul is not understood as the Jiva. "Soul" does not denote the essential personality which is eternally one with the Divine and is always in the presence of God. So also "Soul" does not mean Atman, the Self, because for this Self there is no evolution. What is generally understood by the Soul is the psychic and mental indi-vidualisation which persists even after the dissolution of the physical body and the vital sheath.

Now, when a man dies his physical body dissolves, the vital body dissolves after some time and the psychic and the mental bodies also dissolve. Take the case of an insect.  In the insect there is only the physical consciousness and nothing else. Other formations in the universal are too low to be considered. The insect gathers certain experiences on the physical plane. My own view is that it does not go on developing from plane to plane without a supporting Self. So that it is not as if it was developing from plane to plane and ultimately culminating into a Soul. The Soul, the Self, is already there. The Soul (suksma dehi) living on the physical plane returns to the Jiva which is all along supporting the insect in the physical consciousness. When it is ripe, it is taken up on the vital plane and there it gathers experience till the mental plane is reached in man. There is the Supramental plane also.

What we do in our yoga is to bring down the Supramental plane so that the Soul may return with the full experience to the higher plane. The question is how far we can Supramentalise. If we can Supra-mentalise the mind and the vital being we can return with the memory of that experience and also with that ready formation in another manifestation.

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One can preserve, if he so chooses, his vital body after death and produce effects on the vital plane.

Now suppose we Supramentalise the body. In that case we can carry the full physical experience and return with the fullest physical, vital and mental force and manifest the Divine. That is what happens in the case of Avatars and Vibhutis, – there is full memory of the past vital and mental experience and in the case of the Avatar even of the physical experience. If we can Supramentalise the body it can be retained or thrown away at will – icchā mrtyu. And even when the body is thrown away, when the process of manifes­tation is undertaken the Soul has not to gather the phy­sical and the vital and the mental from any of the formations of Universal Nature – as in the case of ordinary souls. In case these are Supramentalised the whole being is quite ready ; one has simply to take up the ready formation and manifest the Divine.

Disciple : But what affords the material for the physical or the vital bodies ?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by "what affords" ? It is already there in Nature, as there is electricity, gas etc.

Disciple : What is Nature ?

Sri Aurobindo : The Universal Divine has projected the Universe and there is Universal Nature which affords all the material for us. Essentially, everything in Nature corresponds to something in the Universal Soul. For instance, the vital corresponds to the divine Tapas.

The details about the law and the process of rebirth are too complex to be given exactly. It is a complicated question.

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1-6-1924

Sri Aurobindo sat watching a spider round the electric lamp busily preparing its web as it found a lot of moths flying around the light on account of rainy season.

The spider was frantic in its haste to have its web in time, which was being constantly broken by the insects flying about; it could not put in a new thread quickly enough. Somehow it managed to get a sort of net ready by five minutes.

Sri Aurobindo : He has got quite a feast ! He is again running to make the web strong. He ties up the moth in a corner and then goes about preparing the web. He knows mathematics !

Then Sri Aurobindo recalled an incident in the Guest House – years ago – when a spider wanted to balance the whole web and it put a grain of sand and finding it too heavy it cut it off and instead put in a straw and found that the balance was all right. "You see, these spiders are very resourceful. They know what they have to do and then they learn by experience and experiment."

Disciple : Only, they do not speak.

Disciple : How do you know ?

Disciple : They do not speak to us.

Disciple : You do not speak to the cow ! (Laughter)

+ + +

4-8-1924

Morning talk on Sadhana.

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Disciple : What is the distinction between the vital mind and mental will ?

Sri Aurobindo : The vital mind is an impulse first and thought afterwards. It is, you can say, force first and thought afterwards. For instance, desire – if deprived of the element of "desire" – is an impulse or force going out or trying to realise itself.

While mental will is the will connected with thought. It is primarily a thought-force.  Every thought has its will. Even in the Supermind there is a distinction : there is sometimes a force that tries to realise itself while there is at times a knowledge that tries to be effective, though primarily it is knowledge and secon­darily force. In the highest Supermind the two are one : Truth and Force, knowledge and will – both simultaneous and effective. The Sadhaka must make the calm and equality absolutely secure so that what­ever may happen the inner detachment and equality cannot be broken.

+ + +

30-8-1925

Sri Aurobindo :  There is one Major Hill who is fit to be an inmate of a lunatic asylum. He has invited Mahatma Gandhi to the Society of Psycho-Analysts and explained to him how the Hindu-Muslim problem is merely a problem of a complex. It is due to cow-complex. – (Laughter). The Major said further : "If you want to bring about Hindu-Muslim unity you must change the symbol to something else than the cow ! Then there would be no problem."

Disciple : I read an article by a biological analyst or psycho-biologist, perhaps, in which the divorce between Kamal

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pasha and his wife was explained. It said Mrs. Kamal had a great love for her parents, she did not love her husband. Secondly, she had in her the masculine com­plex which made her a suffragist. The writer also ex­plained how Napoleon divorced Josephine because he loved his mother and Queen Elizabeth had a masculine complex but those who came in contact with her had not the feminine complex in them strong enough to keep her to them. He even says that Mahatma Gandhi has a complex ! One never can know what is this complex business !

Sri Aurobindo : All that I know about it is that when you repress something in your nature it goes down into the subconscious. But this generalisation that all you do is due to complexes is quite new.

Disciple : Is it correct ?

Sri Aurobindo : No. The old European psychology had nothing in it. The new psychology has something, but it is false.

Disciple : Is it all false? Does it not make an advance upon the old ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is an advance in the sense I mentioned that the old had nothing whereas this new one has something which is false.

The Europeans have got a fixed idea about these sciences. They observe some abnormal phenomena, study them, find out a general law and then try to apply it everywhere. Napoleon, Elizabeth, Begum Samru all behaved in particular ways because they had complexes. It means that a man has a certain character and his actions are determined by that character. This we knew ten thousand years back. There is nothing new in it.

The difficulty is that they want to work in psycho­logy in the same way that they work in physics. But psychology is not so simple. You can't generalise in it

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as you can with matter. It is very subtle, and one has to take into account many factors.

If you say that everything we do produces an influence on our inner being and leaves an influence there, and conversely, that whatever is within us in the subconscious does influence our actions to some extent – that is all right. But more than that is not tenable. Take their theory of dreams. It is perfectly true that dreams are due to something from the subconscious rising up during sleep in an irregular and fitful manner. But that does not account for all the dreams. The realm of dreams is very wide. There are other kinds of dreams, not due to the subconscious. Human psychology is very complicated.

Disciple : Do you mean to say that the new psychology is not at all correct ?

Sri Aurobindo : I mean it is false, and inasmuch as it tries to work on the lines of the physical sciences it is absurd; for, there is no correspondence.

Disciple : It was Freud who started the complex theory.

Disciple : And he cured people by his theory, you must know.

Sri Aurobindo : Theory can never cure anybody. Do you yet believe that a theory cures ? Curing people, or getting a certain result, does not depend upon the theory at all. A theory may be true or false and yet you may obtain results from it. A theory simply puts you in a condition when something behind you can work through you. That is the whole stand of Bergson. Theory merely convinces you and thereby produces the necessary inner condition. That is all. It may be true or it may be false. Freud may have cured people as Coué cures them now. But does he cure them by his theory ? Not at all; it is because he has some power that people get cured by him.

 You may try to apply the results of psycho-analysis

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and remove obstacles and complexes from human nature and you will see that they do not succeed.

Disciple : It is true, it does not go as deep as Yoga.

Sri Aurobindo : It starts its work on a wrong foundation.

18-10-1925

There was talk to-day about the animal mind.

Sri Aurobindo : With the report of the rats you have also the instance of monkeys crossing a river. It is not mere instinct. The calculation of the height of the tree, for­mation of the chain and the idea of the breadth of the river, requires mind.

I saw the other day the report of a dog which made friends with a horse. The groom of the horse used to steal from the ration of the horse. Either the horse complained to the dog, or the dog itself came to know about it, but the dog knew about the theft. One day when the man was actually stealing he went to the master and brought him there ! The animals seem to act upon 1. Memory, 2. Association, 3. Invention and 4. Adapta­tion of means to an end.

I believe the animals think with the vital mind while man thinks with the reason.

19-10-1925

The talk turned on cats  :

Sri Aurobindo : They have .great vitality. They disturb the whole atmosphere while they are excited and they

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throw the vital force around when they are in that state. They have wonderful vitality.

Some one brought in the subject of small-pox and of vac­cination and anti-vaccination theory. There was a discussion during which a disciple argued that statistics supported a particular view. Sri Aurobindo in that connection said :  "Statistics are not always reliable ; they are often deceptive and manipulated to bring about conclusions which men want to draw from them."

April or May 1926

The talk started by a reference to X's shrinking from fish – which was given to cats – and Y's shrinking from a meat diet.

 Sri Aurobindo : I had myself got that nervous shrinking. I and Bipin Pal once went to Dakshineshwar temple. There a great sacrifice was going on. I stood it all right but Pal was very much moved. I got rid of it completely in jail. Pity and nervous shrinking are weaknesses of the vital being.

Disciple : What is the idea of Patanjali's ahimsa – non-violence ?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't know. You must ask Patanjali for it (Laughter).

Disciple : The question is : what is to be done with bugs ? X can stand any number of; them !

Disciple : X's capacity depends upon the size of the bugs ; if they are big he minds them ! (Laughter)

Disciple : Y is an executioner of bugs !

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Sri Aurobindo : When a thing is to be done then it is kartavya karma, as you know from the Gita ! At that time if I am full of pity it is a weakness. If it is a question of driving out the British, you can't think of pity at the same time ! You can't think of the loss of jobs of many persons or loss to British commerce.

Shrinking is nervous in its nature, and pity is in the heart. It is an emotion. It has more to do with the psychic being. Pity of the Jains is more intellectual than that of other classes. They have no objection to cruelty if it does not take that particular form which by custom and Sanskara they are made to abhor.

Mahatma's idea of ahimsa does not debar him from inflicting suffering on himself and on others. He does not see that he is responsible for their suffering.

Disciple : How is one to know whether it is shrinking or pity ?

Sri Aurobindo : You can feel it within you. You sense the shrinking.  Sensation and feeling are quite different things. Shrinking is primarily in the nervous being while pity is a feeling.

29-5-1926

Disciple : X was expressing intense regret while leaving Pondicherry.

Sri Aurobindo : Was it sincere ?

Disciple : At least I felt it so for the moment. But there seems to be a double personality in him.

Sri Aurobindo : This is not a case of double personality in which one is oblivious of the other, for he evidently remembered what he wrote.

Disciple : In the beginning he seemed a different person but then he changed.

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186_243

Sri Aurobindo : No, the case is that of a being of the vital plane that comes and takes possession of him. It represents itself as myself or the Mother and it is this being that suggests fantastic explanations of my letter to him.

Disciple : What would be the result of this kind of possession ?

Sri Aurobindo : There are two results possible : 1. either he may go mad, 2. or he may manifest some power and pretend to be a great  Avatar. (After a pause) It is easy to fall in this yoga, but it is very difficult to reclimb.

Disciple : Was his fall due to some weakness in the physical being ?

Sri Aurobindo : He had made his body weak in the non co-operation movement by resorting to ascetic practices. But his weakness was not more than what other people have got. His chief defects were in the mental and the vital being. He has a very narrow mental being – practically no mind at all, only conventional ideas about religion and spirituality. But he had a remarkable aspiration and intensity in the vital being. He progressed more than any one. But he had also a great vanity in him and believed that he was someone very special. He aimed at becoming the Superman in the egoistic sense. He then went into a sort of ecstatic devotion, weeping and calling Sri Aurobindo and the Mother in order to pull down the Supermind in one year ! He came to such a pass that he lost control of the physical reality and he thought that I was making him do all those things which, in fact, I did not want him to do ! He was not able to control his body and used to fall on his feet kneeling when the impulse came. He had an attraction for magical and miraculous things and believed that a yogi must not eat or sleep.

Disciple : Is it possible to have such a control over the universal vital plane as to make it impossible for these

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vital forces to represent themselves as the Truth or yourself and the Mother ?

Sri Aorobindo : It is a question of consciousness and not of the physical plane where you can prevent somebody from doing something. Nothing is possible without the co-operation of the individual. The difficulty is that he wants to have that being of the vital plane and, even when it is driven out, calls it back.

Disciple : What is the effect of this being on him ?

Sri Aurobindo : When we took away the pressure he felt like an ordinary man, he felt pains in the body. In some cases where the man resists, there are fits and hysteria etc.

Disciple : Why is it that the vital being throws him here  – makes him come to Pondicherry ?

Sri Aurobindo : There are various beings and they have various tendencies and motives. They are attracted to this place for various reasons, yet they do not want to obey.

Disciple : What is the aim of these beings in taking possession of the human being ?

Sri Aurobindo : Firstly, to have influence on the physical plane which they can have by taking possession of a man. Secondly, to play a joke – just to see what happens. Thirdly, to play God and be worshipped. Fourthly, to bring about a manifestation of vital power. To this class belong those beings that effect miraculous cures and have great healing powers.  Fifthly, to satisfy some desire or impulse like murder or lust.

From this point of view you will see that capital punishment is absurd. The man who murders was, most probably, under possession of impulse of some being. When the man is executed the being takes possession of another. Many of those who commit murder have admitted that they had their first impulse when they saw an execution

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Some vital beings want to have their play here.

Disciple : Why do they do like that ?

Sri Aurobindo : They get supported. But these are not strong beings. Really strong beings are those that are behind world-movements, like Theosophy ; they have not only vital force but mental power.

Disciple : What is their part in evolution ?

Sri Aurobindo : They only exhibit power ; they do not generally take up a physical body.

Disciple : Have they an idea of progress ?

Sri Aurobindo : Their idea of progress is increase of power. But they can be converted. Théon – who was the Mother's instructor in occult­ism in Algeria – believed that those forces or beings who try to come in touch with the physical are destined to be converted.

Disciple : Do they change their vital nature ?

Sri Aurobindo : They remain vital beings but instead of aiming at power for themselves and manifesting it egoistically they consent to manifest something higher. They need not take up a body for that. They can remain on their own plane and work here as an influence for a higher life.

Disciple : Does the soul of the man, who is possessed, try to recover the lost ground ?

Sri Aurobindo : After some time, during possession, there is no soul; it is thrust behind, – into the background. Gene­rally, in man the soul is not in front. By yoga the soul is supposed to come to the front. But it can be thrown into the background by these forces taking advantage of some weakness, .some vital or physical defect – unless the Central Being comes down and takes hold of the instruments.

Disciple : Can these forces take possession when the man

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has got a fine mind – a mind which is higher than the vital impulses ?

Sri Aurobindo : What is man's mental knowledge before those beings ? What does man know ? Practically nothing. They know the complex of forces at work, while man knows nothing of it. Man has a great destiny if he goes along the right lines, but as he is he is shut up in the physical consciousness which is a very inferior plane. Even his reason requires data for its knowledge, and argument or reasoning can justify anything. Two quite opposite conclusions can be supported by the aid of the same reasoning.  And your preferences determine which one you accept.  For the data of reasoning, again, you require to depend upon what you see and hear – on your senses. The vital beings are not so foolish as all that, they are not so limited.

22-6-1926

Disciple : What is the relation between the inner mental, vital and inner physical beings and the psychic being ?

Sri Aurobindo : The mental, vital and physical beings are the instruments of expression of the psychic being. You can say that they are formulations of the psychic being here for manifestation in earth-evolution.  It is the psychic being which supports the mental, the vital and the physical beings here. It stands behind them. The psychic being is what the Europeans call the "Soul" – it is the "true person" in man. It is the innermost being in the lower nature, it is the direct representative of the Divine in the lower nature. It is generally supposed to be behind the heart. It is behind the emotional activity which is its surface manifestation.

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say, a passionate intellect. But they have a distracted and restless being though there is something in it which is very fine and psychic, though their soul is not very healthy. And therefore I am not right when I said that Gandhi is a Russian Christian because he is so dry. He has got the intellectual passion and a great moral will-force but he is more dry than the Russians. The gospel of suffering that he is preaching has its root in Russia as nowhere else in Europe.  Other Christian nations don't believe in it. At the most they have it in mind, but the Russians have got it in their blood. They commit a mistake in preaching the gospel of suffering, we also in India commit the same in preaching the idea of Vairagya.

Disciple : Perhaps Mahatma would be more successful as a leader in Europe.

Sri Aurobindo : If you mean it as a political leader he would have been nowhere successful.

Disciple : But his antagonism to machinery and his idea of simplicity of life would have been accepted in Europe.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't think so. There are plenty of people who are against machinery, though they may be in the minority and powerless – and there was, at any rate, a fashion of simplicity. He would have, of course, given a European form to his ideas.

Disciple : What about the Charkha ?

Sri Aurobindo : There are people in Europe who are enthu­siastic about it, but the Charkha after all is a minor point.

Disciple : There are people in India who regard Mahatmaji as a spiritual man because of his yama and niyama – the vows of self-control and simplicity and his Ahimsa, love etc.

Sri Aurobindo : There is a great difference between the aim Of Patanjali and that of Gandhi and Tolstoi. The aim of Patanjali was to rise to a Higher Consciousness. He

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proposed to do it by replacing the general Rajasic movements of nature by the Sattwik ones. There no idea of morality or ethics in it, and they never made yama and niyama the aim of their effort. Their aim was to rise above the ordinary consciousness a ri even their idea of samyama – restraint was not dictated by morality.

They wanted to gather power for a spiritual purpose and so they discouraged the spending away of forces in the ordinary way.

Disciple : The Gita speaks of four kinds of Bhaktas – devo­tees. – ārta, – distressed,  jijñāsu – seeking   knowledge arthārthi – one who wants to serve some purpose and jñāni, the man of knowledge. What is the meaning of arthārthi ?

Sri Aurobindo : When you want God for serving some of your aims.

Disciple : For instance, when you wanted God for the liberation of India.

Sri Aurobindo : Then I was an arthārthi Bhakta.

Disciple : A mixture of jnani and arthārthi.

Sri Aurobindo : No. I had no knowledge. I did not know what God was. It was two years before I met Lele that I began yoga seriously. Deshpande at that time was doing Hatha Yoga, Asanas and other practices and as he had a great proselytising tendency he wanted to convert me to his view. But I thought that a yoga which requires me to give up the world was not for me. I had to liberate my country. I took it up seriously when I learnt that the same Tapasya which one does to get away from the world can be turned to action-learnt that yoga gives power and I thought : why should I not get power and use it to liberate my country

Disciple : God very cleverly exploited your desire to liberate India,

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Sri Aurobindo : It was the time of country first, humanity afterwards and the rest nowhere. It was something behind that got the idea accepted by the mind ; mine was a side-door entry into the spiritual life.

25-6-1926

Sri Aurobindo (Turning to a disciple) : You said last time that suffering purifies. Can you explain in what way ?

Disciple : When suffering comes it forces one to separate himself from the instruments and recognise his true self and so he feels pure and light and this helps him to rise above the lower nature.    .

Sri Aurobindo : It need not make you separate yourself from suffering unless you have got the power to stand back from it; but this power is not inherent in suffering. Take the case of the unfortunate persons who are put into prison. They suffer but suffering does not purify them ; on the contrary, it makes them worse.  To my mind suffering is a sign of imperfection of nature. It is a stamp of imperfection on the individual and universal nature. You have to learn from suffering : firstly, why it is there, and, secondly, how to overcome it.

But if you take delight in it and invite it like the Christian monks who used to get whipped and take pleasure in it – that I consider a deviation and a perversion.

Disciple : Is it not true that when we suffer we turn to God ?

Sri Aurobindo : Not necessarily.  There are people who suffer and suffer and never turn to God.

Disciple : Tagore says, "Suffering or joy, whatever you give, I put it on my head and accept with equal joy," –

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Sri Aurobindo : Yes, yes. That is all right. That is like all things highly sentimental and not necessarily true.

Disciple : Why should I protest when God sends me suffering?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't protest. I only learn, I don't fly away from it and shrink from it. You have to look upon it as upon everything else in the world-like sin and evil, for instance. But you have not to accept sin and evil.

Disciple : But everything comes from God.

Disciple : Christian mysticism derives its idea of rejoicing in suffering from intense Bhakti – devotion. Everything is seen to come from the beloved and welcomed

Sri Aurobindo : What does not come from God ? Even evil and sin come from God. Why not accept them ? If God drives you towards your neighbour's wife why not accept it ? They – sin and evil – have their place in the universe to fulfil and in evolution also.

But that is not the law of the human soul, the soul is not here for suffering. The Gita speaks of the Asuric Tapas and says that people who invite suffering torture the elements in the body and torture "Me", Krishna, who am seated in the body.

When you say everything comes from God, you have to accept it with some common sense. It is all right so long as you are in the Vedantic consciousness. Every­thing comes from God is another way of saying that the Infinite manifests itself in everything. But it is not necessary that the manifestation of the Infinite here should take the forms of suffering and evil.

Disciple : Suppose I take everything as coming from God, can I not progress in the spiritual life ?

Sri Aurobindo : You can take up any attitude which may give you spiritual benefit : for instance, if suffering comes you can put your attitude roughly as follows

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 “I have been touched, I know the cause which it comes from, and I must get rid of it."

That is quite different from taking pleasure in suffering as the Christians do. In the movement of the Infinite there are both good and evil, suffering and joy i.e. there are the higher and the lower movements and if you accept and invite the lower and take delight in it, well, you can have it ! If you want suffering, God will give you enough of it. That way would not lead you to rise above it.

Disciple : Generally, suffering comes because something in the man takes delight in it.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, of course.  Even when there is the rejection, something very obscure in the vital and the physical being takes pleasure in it.

Disciple : Why should I accept one movement of the Infinite and reject another? What is the criterion?

Sri Aurobindo : Knowledge is the criterion. You accept those movements that help you to grow and release you into the divine consciousness and reject those that bind you down.

Disciple : Supposing I change suffering into joy ?

Sri Aurobindo : Then it is no longer suffering. It becomes an experience of Ananda. All this idea of suffering and self-immolation comes from the Asuric vital plane where suffering is the law of development and it is the Asuric influence that casts it on humanity.

Disciple : Is not suffering as well as evil a law of all manifestation ?

Sri Aurobindo : Not at all. It is only "a circumstance" of our evolution. There are planes where the element of suffering does not enter at all.

Disciple : Is not duality a necessary law of manifestation ?

Sri Aurobindo : No, it is also "a circumstance" of our evolu­tion. Duality is the device of manifesting the Infinite

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in ignorance through imperfect instruments. For instance, in the Supermind and Supramental world all these things – suffering and duality etc. – do not enter at all because there is no possibility of them.

What is suffering? Suffering means that the consciousness is not able to bear the contact of certain forces and assimilate them, because I have not got in me what the Veda calls the rtam – the, true or the right movement of consciousness. Take physical pain what is it ? A certain force comes to me and I am not able to seize it and master it, bear the contact and assimilate it, and the reaction is pain. If the full force or even a sufficient force, to meet the contact were there, there would be no pain. It is the same thing with regard to what is called error and evil or sin. Really speaking, it is the infinite Ananda which becomes per­verted into suffering here in duality. But suffering does not enter into the infinite Ananda, as conceptions of good and evil do not enter into; the infinite power nor error into infinite knowledge. .           Error is there and enters into me, because I am not able to enter into the knowledge that comes to me in that form and extract it out of it and assimilate it. The same is with evil.

Disciple : But why is there this suffering in the world?

Sri Aurobindo : The fact is that the Infinite creates a figure of himself in the Inconscient – you can say, even in the Nescient – and tries to manifest by the pressure of his : infinite power higher and higher degrees of consciousness till it reaches the Divine. This happens because in the Infinite there are infinite possibilities and all of the® are bound to realise themselves at some time. This universe is only one of its possibilities. If you ask why he creates it we have to say, "Because it is possible, we are obliged to say that he does it for Lila".

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It is not proper to expect God to act with the same motives as men. ! If you ask "why" and "for what purpose" in the human sense, then there is .no reply.

Disciple : You said that there is the Asuric plane or world from which this idea of suffering comes; You said that suffering is the law of their development. Is suffering the only law ?

Sri Aurobindo : There are two worlds : the one Divine and the other Asuric. The Divine is a world of harmony, idyllic beauty where everything moves in order. You may call it a world of "ideals" – a world of freedom  – i.e. free movement towards truth, power and Ananda. But it is not possible to realise it here on this earth. On the other side there is the Asuric world which is a world of force, violent and hard – a world of self - aggrandisement, self-mortification and self-immolation. Harmony there is not. It moves by conflict, struggle, strife. The Asura increases his power by suffering, by what Gita calls' "Asuric Tapas" – by violent means and self-torture, and thus tries to approach the power of the Gods.

Disciple : Humanity is badly off between these Gods and Asuras, because the perfection of the Divine world cannot be realised here on this earth as it is not the law of our plane, and on the other side there are the Asuric impulses and tendencies.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the old conflict between Gods and Titans symbolised by all the religions.

Disciple : But the religions say that you have to follow inc Deva and you are safe.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not so easy ; and it may be very good for the Deva but not for the man because the Devas would desire Ananda from it in their own plane as the Asuras do in theirs. At a certain stage in the yoga you can clearly see these two worlds and distinguish

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the impulses coming from there. But if you want I manifest the Truth here, you have to climb above some still higher plane from where the world of the Gods and the Asuric world derive their truth. When I am speaking of the Divine world I am not speaking of "the greater Gods". Both Daivic and Asuric world deviate the Sadhaka from the straight spiritual climb 1

Disciple : You spoke about the increase of power through suffering. It is, I believe, of the same nature as the physiological reactions due to serums.  Whenever a certain poison or germ is introduced into the system the whole system reacts in such a way as to produce more antitoxin and anti-germ than are necessary to kill the obstruction.

Sri Aurobindo : But that is not the example of suffering, it is the law of fight. It is well known that to a certain extent fight increases the power in man. But suffering is quite different.

Disciple : But if we have to reject suffering, we have also to reject pleasure because it is also imperfect.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, that is why the Gita says you have to reject both, rāga and dwesa, ignorance and partial knowledge ; we have to go beyond duality to the true Ananda which is here misrepresented by both pleasure and pain.

Disciple : There is a sect of Shiva worshippers in Bengal who put themselves to great tortures. Perhaps their idea is that they will earn more Punya, merit, by doing so.

Sri Aurobindo : The , Indian ascetic idea of torturing the body is not exactly the same as the Christian idea of

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1 This does not refer to the true gods; it should he noted that there are gods – little & great gods – on many planes of consciousness. Worship of this binds the human soul to the lower levels & thus prevents its ascent to Higher Consciousness beyond mental, vital & physical consciousnss?

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suffering. They don't want self-purification through suffering. They had the idea of self-mastery, that the body shall do what the spirit wants it to do. That was the idea behind asceticism. Self-mastery has been the trend of Indian thought all along its spiritual development. Even Buddha, when he started, had the idea of uprooting suffering and evil from the world. Only, he said that you can't have it here in this world unless you go to Nirvana. The Indian ascetic self-torture was done in the violent Asuric way and by self-will trying to master the body by throwing great vital force upon it. There was also certain contempt for the body and for the limi­tations which the physcial being imposed upon the spirit. It was a violent revolt against that bondage.

Disciple : The Christian idea is "Blessed are those .that mourn, for they shall be comforted". Perhaps they are rewarded in heaven in proportion to their suffering.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not so mathematical, as that. It only means : when you suffer more, more grace is upon you. It is an opportunity that God sends you to liberate yourself. According to them salvation is in the cross – it is, in fact, a symbol of salvation.

Disciple : Even among Christians we find people who have different ideas. For example, the Christian Scientists simply deny the existence of suffering. It is said to be an illusion that will vanish if we reject it.

Sri Aurobindo : It is true. But to deny it only with the mind is not enough, you must deny it with the whole of your being.

Disciple : There was the instance of a man whom cobra poison did not affect., Is that possible ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it is possible, if you can reject it not by the mind but with the physical consciousness also. But while you are rejecting it with your mind your body is crying, "Oh, Oh" !

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Sri Aurobindo : It is a very old story. I believe it was a Russian who invented it. I heard it when I came back from England.

Disciple : There are so many contradictory statements concerning Christ and nobody is able to prove anything. Some scholars even question whether Christ existed at all.

Sri Aurobindo : It does not matter in the least if Christ lived or not. The thing for which the name stands is there, it exists.

Disciple : Is it possible that such a movement could gain in mankind without anybody to organise it ?

Sri Aurobindo : That is not impossible.

Disciple : Do poetic creations also live in the same way ?

Sri Aurobindo ; Not in the same way.

Disciple : Did Rama live, or is he merely the creation of Valmiki ?

Sri Aurobindo : There is no ground to believe that Rama is a historical figure.

Disciple : But the account of the conquest and other things ?

Sri Aurobindo : Do you believe a king marches to Lanka with an army of monkeys ? Valmiki may have taken it from tradition, or from imagination and, created figures which so well suited the Indian temperament that the whole race took them into its consciousness, and assimilated them. Some even believe that there were Ramayanas before Valmiki's and that even in the Veda you find Rama symbolising the divine and Sita standing for the earth. It also may be that Valmiki-brought it over from some Daivic plane to this earth. Rama might have lived but one cannot say anytiling definite.

Disciple : What about Krishna ?

Sri Aurobindo : Well, Krishna stands on a different footing

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from that of Rama. He seems to be a historical character. All the myths that have gathered round his name may be later additions. But he is mentioned in the Upanishad and seems to have lived. He mentioned there as "Krishna, son of Devaki” – (one who lived in the island) ; there is also mention of "Dhritarashtra". There he is recognised as one of those who had the divine knowledge. He was no doubt, somebody who made a very deep impression upon his age. But it does not matter whether Krishna as he is popularly known, lived or not ; Krishna exists in. a much more real way than the physical.

It is very difficult to separate what the founder stood for and what has been added on to his name afterwards. For instance, very little of what is now known as Buddhism was taught by Buddha. Take the doctrine of karma – compassion. It was brought in by the teachers of the Mahayana school.

Disciple : According to popular belief among the Jains Krishna is now in the seventh hell ! And in the next cycle he will be one of the Tirthankars ! He is now in hell because he was responsible for so much killing – himsa.                                        

Disciple : In Bengal the Madans have made Rama accept Madanism and they have written books to prove it!

Disciple : There is a story of two Christian monks which is proved to be the same as that of Buddha and Ananda.

Sri Aurobindo : Religions are very funny. Instead of all these absurdities, if they get to the thing that is behind the religion it would be more to the point or purpose.

Disciple : What do you think of prayascitta –  atonement  – as a means of purification ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is atonement ; it is a form of punishment for breaking some custom or social law. It has nothing

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to do with spiritual purification. It is akin to legal punishment.                               

Disciple : It is generally given in ritualistic Smritis.

Disciple : It is a belief that a bath in the Ganges purifies a man. Is there any truth in it ?

Sri Aurobindo : In that way everything does some good.

Disciple : Ramakrishna used to say about the bath in Ganges that when you are taking the bath your sin hangs on the nearest tree and as soon as you are out it catches you and sticks to you again !

Sri Aurobindo : Some people are said to feel pure and light after atonement. But generally they are ready to make another fresh start ! All these ideas about death in Kashi and removal of sins are simply heresy and deceits of the vital world.

2-7-1926

Disciple : You said the other day that birth, growth, decay and death – that is the law of life, – but it is not absolute; it is only a groove created by Nature.

Now, we have in "atoms" an example of a different law of life because they have a beginning and an end, but they have no growth and decay. Their death has been studied by science in the case of radio-active elements. The scientists speak of the life of an atom as the period – or length of time – necessary for its disintegration. The life of an atom varies greatly :

Radium is said to have about 1500 years. But the point to be noted is that the death rate is exactly the same for old and newly formed atoms. They have practically no age, and their death is brought about by decay and wearing away.

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Sri Aurobindo : When I was speaking of "life" the other day I meant to imply those forms of life like the plants animals in which life is more organised and complex Of course there is life as well as mind and even supermind in the atoms, but these are not manifest and not organised, not on the surface as it were.

These principles-life and mind-would not manifest if there was not the pressure from the higher planes;  because of the pressure they come out and organise themselves.                              

That is the reason why we feel pressure from above when we bring the Supermind. The Supermind tries to enter into Mind and Life and Matter and transform them.

Disciple : According to the biologists the characteristics of life are 1. growth from within, 2. Assimilation, 3. Reproduction and 4. Fatigue.

Sri Aurobindo : There is no fatigue in the vital force. Fatigue is only a circumstance due to the imperfect equilibrium between the physical and the vital. The same is with the mental. If you can open to the universal vital and mental you find they are inexhaustible.

Disciple : What is the nature of the balance between the physical and the vital?    ;

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by the nature of the balance ? There is a fixed quantity of vital force and mental force that can be used by the physical body. The body is not able to bear a very great amount of those forces. That is why modern civilized man is much more delicate than the savage.

All these words "assimilation" and "reproduction” do not explain what life is. They are simply properties of life. You cannot know what life is with mental knowledge.

Disciple : We have different manifestations of life on the

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physical plane. If we take molecules, cells and orga­nised bodies – the three forms – we find at each stage that it is necessary to have a higher force. For instance, molecules by themselves cannot form or build a cell, and similarly a cell cannot build a body. Their growth would only be an amorphous mass.

Sri Aurobindo : That is true. There is the difference in the scale, but there is no gap, really speaking, from Matter to the highest Consciousness – though the manifestation of life when seen through the mind may seem so.

Disciple : For instance, scientists find a gap between dead matter and living. They can explain how the dead, particles of food – i.e., Matter – pass through the stomach and how they are absorbed, but they cannot explain how they are changed into living cells. They also can­not explain how the nervous stimulus, sensation, is changed into thought.

Sri Aurobindo : How do you know that food particles are dead Matter ? Because there is no such gap, the trans­formation cannot be understood by science.  It is futile to ask "why", because science can only know the "process", the "how", of things.

Disciple : Bergson says that mental knowledge only applies to the physico-chemical world and that the problem of life can only be grasped by intuition.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it is true. Mind itself understands nothing. You say "this is the reason" but the same act of reasoning can lead you to a quite opposite conclu­sion. Even when a man acts, or seems to act, according to some "reason" he acts not by mental reasoning but by something from above – intuition. At a certain stage the substance of the mind itself is transformed into the intuitive mind. Then it is found impossible to resume the old mental activity. Intuition is an image to the Supermind ; materials collected by the mind are

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there, of course, but they don't enter into the final decision. They are not the chief determining fact

Then you go on developing more and more and manifest higher and higher degrees of suprarnental working in which the action becomes increasingly more independent of the mind.

Disciple : Can an individual in the supermind know the function of, and deal with, the material world without the direct intervention of mental knowledge ?

Sri Aurobindo : When it is perfect there is no more need of mental knowledge.

Disciple : I mean to say this : take a piece of glass : it is found by experiment that certain substances in certain proportions are necessary to give the best glass.

Sri Aurobindo : If the supramental consciousness were perfected in the physical there would be no need of experiment.

Disciple : Do you mean to say that a supramental being could be a better electrician without study and training in electricity ?

Sri Aurobindo : Why not ? Do you think that the Supermind is inferior to the mind ? There is a doubt at the back of your mind whether such a thing is possible.

Disciple : Yes. It staggers the mind to think of it.

Sri Aurobindo : Up to the present time nobody has cared to bring down and apply this Power to the physical plane. Something was done in the mind and also in the vital being but not in the physical.

Firstly, the yogis did not care for these questions of the physical plane. Secondly, they had other, more direct, means of dealing with them.

Disciple : Will all Supermen be able to do it ?

Sri Aurobindo : How many Supermen are there ? But as say, this new Consciousness is a gradual unfolding. You find it in the atoms of your body and there is a conscious­

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ness in the cells; you can also feel and understand the forces on the physical plane when it descends. But it is very difficult to bring it down to the physical. And even when it comes down there are fields in which it is well organised and works better and others in which it struggles and stumbles and errs.

It develops itself first in parts which are more prepared by your past development. Then the deve­lopment is gradual and not miraculous. We may even doubt if it is possible to make a beginning at all, for, it is something which has never been done and the field is not prepared. But if we grant the supposition that this earth is the field of higher and higher manifestations of Consciousness, then it is perfectly logical to suppose that all physical phenomena would be brought under the control of this Higher Force.

Disciple : All Supermen would be able to do it ?

Sri Aurobindo : Once you start it will go on working and there is no reason why it should be limited. TJie past efforts have not prepared it – because one can even doubt if it can come into the physical at all. The Higher Force is our one hope. We can make a beginning, afterwards it can be perfected.

Disciple : In this life ?

Sri Aurobindo : It depends upon how long you can keep the body. Anyhow, it is perfectly possible that we may be able to make a start and it will go on gradually developing in man.

Disciple : Will it be perfected in the same life ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it depends upon how long you can keep the body. Even if we don't succeed in perfecting it, but establish it in the physical, then in time it will unfold all the degrees of the Supermind and there is no reason to suppose that it will not manifest even

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higher degrees than the Supermind –  manifest equally in all, of course.

9-7-1926

Disciple : In a case like that of X where the individual himself is averse to free himself from possessions-would he be able to get rid of it by suicide ? Is suicide bad in such a case ?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't think that is the way out. Generally these ideas of suicide come from the hostile world.

Disciple : Why do the hostiles give this suggestion of suicide ?

Sri Aurobindo : Because they are satisfied with the Bhoga and they leave the body with the mechanical madness behind, or they may destroy the body.

Disciple : What would be the effect of this kind of possession on X's future life ? Will there be any weakness tending to subject him to the same influence ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is very difficult to say ; but, I supose, it depends upon how far the psychic being withdraws from the movement. If the psychic being can reject completely and cut itself away from this vital per­sonality that has brought about this fall, in that case the vital personality would be left to its own fate. It may either disintegrate or go into animal births and sink lower or be incorporated in the Asuric plane. But it would not be any longer a part of himself. Then the psychic being would have to build the vital and the physical being for itself and it may take several livs8 If he were not possessed as he is, and if he could live like a normal man in this life what he has done before might serve as a basis for his future evolution. But now he has to regain what he has lost. But supposing

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that the psychic being is not able to throw away this personality in him, then he may go on repeating the double movement and one can't say to what it may lead.

It is better for his spiritual evolution that this crash has come to him ; for, if he had remained sane and allowed this force to work through him and himself taken enjoyment of it like Y, or become a big Swami and had

Disciples etc. then there would have been very little chance to recover from it.

Disciple : Would he be able to reject this personality in this life ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is apparent he can't reject it in this life. It is a very serious defeat for the soul and it seems now this personality is a part of the composition of his nature and he cannot get rid of it.

But the psychic being may in a future life be able to recover the lost ground by rebuilding the vital and the physical which would be better than they are now.

10-7-1926

Disciple : K, who is gone mad says : "I will stay in a room by the side of the grave-yard and inform me if  Sri Aurobindo ever feels compassion for me."

Sri Aurobindo : The compassion is to be measured by the distance – the farther he remains there is chance for More Karuna – compassion. (Laughter)

Disciple : As there are forces that are hostile in Yoga, are there not forces also that help Yoga ? What is their nature ?

Sri Aurobindo : It depends upon the yoga you are practising.

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Disciple : It means there are forces that help in our yoga

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there are forces that help us, not direct! but from behind. You can say they are the Deva they help from behind and they work under the High Force which we are calling down. In our yoga we can't take their help completely because the help that is given by them though considerable at certain stages is, after all, conditional. There are beings that are in sympathy with this effort we are making because they stand to profit by our yoga. They would be prepared to help in proportion to the advantage they derive and to the extent to which you fulfil their conditions.

It may also happen that when you try to go beyond them, they may prove to be obstacles in your progress. For instance, they help you if you give them worship. Now, in this yoga our aspiration being for the highest Truth, we cannot give our entire worship to anything but the Truth and it is the Truth and the power of Truth on which we mainly rely for help.

Disciple : Are there forces that help on all the planes ?

Sri Aurobindo : Hostile attacks are direct and so you feel them more ; the help that is given is from behind.

Disciple : Is the help given by these forces mental in its nature ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. Generally the help is from the mental and the vital planes and we cannot take it because the help is always conditional.

By the by I was talking to the Mother about the story that has appeared in the New India about the awakening of memory of previous birth in a child two and a half years old. She gave another instance of a similar case that is authentic.

It occurred in her own family. She has a brother who is a cultured, intelligent man who does not believe in rebirth or any of these things. He had a daughter

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Between the age of three and four years she was being given a bath by her father when she closed her eyes and began to sing a queer tune. Her father asked her what was the queer tune she was singing. She replied with her eyes half-closed "I used to play this tune when I was a shepherdess on the Porus."

Now, none in the family had ever talked to her about Porus or anything else. The only person who could talk was her father and mother. There was a servant in the house who was an idiot. It stopped with that one memory and did not go any further; but it is clear that it was something that came upon her. If a child is grown up it comes as an imagination.

So this story adds weight to the possibility of the child remembering its previous birth. It is necessary that every case must be well authenticated.

6-8-1926

Disciple : Yesterday there was some talk about the distinction between "feelings" and "emotions". Emo­tions are those feelings which require the process of thought.

Sri Aurobindo : Your distinction is at least fifty-years-old psychology ! Nowadays they don't make any distinc­tion. Formerly, they used to lay stress on mental classi­fication, they used to subdivide and analyse all mental functions. But nowadays they deal, or try to deal at any rate, with the fundamentals. And so they now say that "feelings" and "emotions" used in the ordinary sense are the same thing. If you use "feelings" in the wider sense it may include "emotions". But that is not the sense in which it is ordinarily used.

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Disciple : I did not mean to say that there is any absolute distinction between them. I only referred to the practical distinction. For instance, when I say "I feel hungry " I do not mean the same kind of feeling as a high emotion

Sri Aurobindo : Really speaking, "hunger"is not a "feeling" You can say it is a kind of "sensation" which creates the feeling of hunger in your vital and physico-vital being corresponding to some "need" in the physical

Disciple : But take "patriotism", for instance : we can't feel partiotic unless we have the necessary mental development or enlargement.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't admit that. Even dogs have some sort of patriotism. What man has done is that he has woven a lot of things round all the animal impulses of nature. Ordinarily, what men call patriotism is nothing more than the instinct of the "herd". The bees and the ants are also patriotic, they fight for preserving the herd and there also the individuals sacrifice their lives in order that the community may live.

Disciple : Only, they do it without delivering lectures! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, and without proclaiming aloud that they are the highest in the scale of creation because they do it. It is the same animal nature; what happens in man's case is that he raises it up to the mental being and there weaves all kinds of things around it – thoughts, emotions, ideals etc. and this justifies to his mind the vital-animal nature.

Disciple : The Gita says dhyāyato vişqyān – sangah is born.  – "by thinking about objects of enjoyment attachment for them is born". There it is clear that "attachment" due to thinking.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't think that the Gita, strictly speaking is dealing with the origin of emotions in that couplet

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It merely tries to show that when the mind "runs after” and "dwells upon" something it gets attachment. But it does not mean that "thought" precedes emotions always.

Discipile : Sometimes a connection is established between a vital desire and thought.

Sri Aurobindo : That always happens. For instance, certain desires are accompanied by a certain thought-movement. And so, when the same thought-movement takes place, it reciprocally awakens corresponding "desires" or "emotions". But that is due to association. It does not mean that the thought creates the movement in the emotions.

Disciple : But if I think about certain events I can reproduce the emotion which I felt in the past.

Sri Aurobindo : That is quite another matter. It is recalling by memory. I could even reproduce illness in the body by thinking of it ! It does not mean thinking is responsible for it.

As I said, most of the things which man delights in are not much different from those of the animals. We have inherited and brought into our human life much of the animal nature almost intact. All that you call "emotions" are, really speaking, vital in their origin ; and, as I have already told you, man has simply woven a web round them. Animals also have the same vital feelings, emotions and even thoughts. But in man they work in a different way, because he is a mental being. Man raises up all these things, and forms what I call the "vital mind" or what you call "emotions". Emotions according to my classification are the vital part of the mind. Man simply has raised up the animal's vital impulses and tried to mentalise them. The result has been what I call "weaving a web round" them. All these things therefore appear justifiable to him by his reasoning.

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