Sri Aurobindo : It is true that the Supramental yoga accepts life but that does not mean life as it is at present, because the Supramental wants perfection and at present life is not perfect. Many fields of life are at present dominated by Ignorance. We want to change the whole mould of life. We want to gain the Supramental state in human evolution as the next higher step from the Mind. Now that there are signs of its coming we must try to bring it down into the physical being. It is comparatively easy to ascend to the Supermind. But, then, those who go up generally go away from life.

Humanity is the only field of manifestation and all gains must be brought to that plane : that is, to the plane of the ordinary consciousness. In order to do that, the Truth and nothing else must be demanded, otherwise one gets something mental, emotional or vital and is satisfied with it. Till now, humanity has only got glimpses of the Truth – but not the Truth itself. Every spiritual movement has tended to the same and has helped the realisation of it to a certain extent. The Vaishnavite religion wanted to bring the Truth into the

Page 69

vital and the aesthetic being but it remained satisfied with it. The Vaishnavites indulged themselves, you may say, spiritually. The austerity of the effort was also lost. The Vedic Rishis had the conception of the Truth but under those conditions it could not be brought down for humanity. The Upanishads have got the idea but it is only a statement of it and there is no idea of bringing down the Truth. Mainly, theirs is the working of the intuitive mentality. Then came the intellectual philosophies – which were only intellectual – and the Puranas followed.

If the Supramental is brought to the physical then it might tend to endure, because Matter, though limited, is the one thing certain on this plane. If a number of men can reach this condition, then in course of time it may become a permanent force in mankind. It would certainly bring new forces into play in the universe and change the present balance of universal forces.

There may be many things beyond the Supermind but they cannot operate in this manifestation except through the Supermind. Therefore it must be made a permanent part of humanity.

13-4-1923

Disciple : Yesterday we had a talk about Sj. Lele and his Gurubhai – co-Disciple – Narayan Swami, and I told you that I came to know that they follow – I do not know how far it is true, though – the Dattatraya yoga. I wonder what that yoga is like.

Sri Aurobindo : I was thinking about it after the talk. You know there is, perhaps, a traditional method of yoga

Page 70

in the Maharashtra which belongs to the Dattatraya Cult. The truth behind it is that Dattatraya represents the highest realisation – he always keeps his consciousness immersed in the Infinite and the freedom of the Infinite is brought down by him to the mental, vital and even to the physical plane. Therefore a man who is a Siddha of the path acts free like the Infinite even in his Prakriti, nature, – and therefore often acts in a way which is considered immoral by society. He tries, thus, to bring down the power of the free Infinite into the instruments of manifestation and this he considers perfection. But it is doubtful whether it is perfection.

The danger of the realisation of the Infinite, free from all bondage, is that except in the highest condition, many false experiences can also masquerade as true. For instance, such a man gets tremendous power and generally has an ego-centric nature. Even Ravana was a great yogi. One having a great control over the vital plane only is generally known as a Rakshasa, The Asura controls his mind and his vital being. There is a great possibility of committing a blunder in the Dattatraya path.

Disciple : In the Avadhuta Gita, attributed to Datta, great stress is laid on vairagya, renunciation of the world. It teaches the abandonment of the world and nature.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but that does not seem to be the whole of Datta-marga – the yoga of Dattatraya. It seems only one side of it. There is the other side – the side that accepts every determination of the Infinite free from all relations – or relativities. There is unbridled pleasure or enjoyment on the one hand, there is renunciation of pleasure on the other.

Disciple : There are some people who claim to have met Dattatraya.

Sri Aurobindo : Lele also told me that he saw Dattatraya at

Page 71

Girnar and talked to him in the form of a boy for one hour.

Disciple : Lele gave you the yoga – then did he not give the Dattatraya yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : I did not begin with Lele. I first began on my own with prānāyma, drawing the breath into my head. This gave me good health, lightness and an increased power of thinking. Side by side certain experiences also came. But not many nor important ones. I began to see things in the subtle.

Then I had to give it up when I took to politics. I wanted to resume my yoga but did not know how to begin again. I wanted spiritual experience and political action together. I would not take up a method that required me to give up action and life.

When I came to Baroda from the Surat Congress, Barin had written to me that he knew a certain yogi to whom he would introduce me at Baroda. Barin sent a wire to Leie from Baroda and he came. At that time I was staying at Khasirao Jadhava's house. We went to Sardar Majumdar's place. On the top floor in a room we were shut up for three days. He asked me to do nothing but throw away all thoughts that came to my mind. In three days I did it. We sat in meditation together, I realised the Silent Brahman Consciousness. I began to think from above the brain and have done so ever since. Sometimes at night the Power would come and I would receive it and also the thoughts it brought and in the morning I would put down the whole thing word by word on paper.

In that very silence, in that thought-free condition, we went to Bombay. There I had to give a lecture at the National Union. So, I asked him what I should do. He asked me to pray. But I was absorbed in the silent Brahman and so I told him I was not in a mood

Page 72

to pray. Then he said he and some others would pray and I should simply go to the meeting and make namaskār – a bow – to the audience as Narayana, the all-pervading Divine, and then a voice would speak through me. I did exactly as he told me. On my way to the meeting somebody gave me a paper to read. There was some headline there which caught my eye and left an impression. When I rose to address the meeting the idea flashed across my mind and then all of a sudden something spoke out. That was my second experience from Leie. It also shows .that he had the power to give yogic experience to others.

When I was in Bombay, from the balcony of a friend's house, I saw the whole busy movements of Bombay city as a picture in a cinema show – all unreal, shadowy. That was a Vedantic experience. Ever since I have maintained that peace of mind, never losing it even .in the midst of difficulties. All the speeches that I delivered on my way to Calcutta from Bombay were of the same nature – with some mixture of mental work in some parts. Before parting I told Leie : "Now that we shall not be together I should like you to give me instructions about Sadhana." In the meantime I told him of a Mantra that had arisen in my heart. He was giving me instructions when he suddenly stopped and asked me if I could rely absolutely on Him who had given me the Mantra. I said I could always do it. Then Lele said there was no need of instructions. We had then no talk till we reached our destination. Some months later, he came to Calcutta. He asked me if I meditated in the morning and in the evening. I said, "No." Then he thought that some devil had taken possession of me and he began to give me instructions. I did not insult him but I did not act upon his advice. I had received the command

Page 73

from within that a human Guru was not necessary for me. As to dhyāna – meditation – I was not prepared to tell him that I was practically meditating the whole day. :

All that wrote in the Bande Mataram and in the Karmayogin was from that state. I have since trusted the inner guidance even when I thought it was leading me astray. The Arya and the subsequent writings did not come from the brain. It was, of course, the same Power working. Now I do not use that method. I developed it to perfection and then abandoned it.

29-5-1923

Sri Aurobindo (to a Disciple) : Really speaking two things matter : one, the Spirit that is dynamic above and the other the Life here which is the field of expression of the Spirit. Mind, emotion and other psychological activities are only intermediate terms. Mind is more or less a channel and so is heart. The body is merely the mould.

Two things are necessary in this yoga : balance and a strong hold on the earth. By balance I mean the different parts of the being adjusted to one another, or some steadiness, a quiet poise somewhere in the man, – not an unsteady inner condition.

A strong mental being is also very necessary. Otherwise, when the experiences come the man turns upside down. In India, our mental development – I mean the outer man's development – is not at all proportionate. There is the psychic being ready in many

Page 74

cases, there is the aspiration for spiritual life and faith also. But mind, reason, intelligence – the dynamic mind – are very crude. That is why I hesitate sometimes to give the yoga.

In Europe the outer parts are very well developed – reason, expression, the dynamic mind etc. But then there the whole thing ends. There is a great poverty in the inner being. Some of the Europeans are, really, babies in spiritual life. To combine the inner development with the outer would be ideal. Science, for instance, steadies reason arid gives a firm grounding to the physical mind. Art – I mean the appreciation of beauty pure and simple, without the sensual grasping at the object – trains up the aesthetic side of the mind. The true artist has always the pure love of beauty – free and impersonal. Philosophy cultivates the pure thinking power. And politics and such other departments of mental work train up the dynamic mind. All these should be duly trained with the full knowledge that they have their limited utility. Philosophy tends to become mere mental gymnastics and preference for one's own ideas and mental constructions. So also Reason becomes the tyrant and denies anything further. But if the training is given to these parts with an understanding of their limitations then they may serve very usefully the object of this yoga. As I say, they must all admit a higher working in them.

A Disciple related the yogic experience of a student.

Sri Aurobindo : - It is no use hurrying about psychic experiences and realisations. One must prepare the physical mind, the intelligence by common knowledge as well as knowledge pertaining to yoga. One must understand

Page 75

what comes to him. Sometimes one does not even know what has come to him. One must also pay attention to suddhi – purification, by introspection, by Karma yoga and by Bhakti, devotion. Then a step forward can be taken.

The question was about the Guru giving spiritual experience to Disciples.

Sri Aurobindo : It only means that the readiness was already there and the Guru's help removes the obstacle and the natural development comes about. But no one can permanently change the consciousness.

Disciple : The difficulty with our people is that they seek the easy path and are easily satisfied ; they do not want to face an uphill task.

Sri Aurobindo : In the first place, they get easily satisfied. But the permanent change of consciousness is the one thing important. And our people do not want to take pains. Moreover, yoga is regarded as the realm of the miraculous. Another thing is that they do not want to be harsh to themselves : they want the satisfaction of feeling, "I am all right."

X got this experience : the vision of the golden Mother over the head, and then the descent of a great calm. Then the next thing was to purify the whole being so that the experience might remain. But he could not do it and so he lost it. He got the experience and thought he had done everything. ! He could have asked : 'What after all is this experience ? What next ?’ These people get all sorts of experiences but when the question of permanent change of consciousness comes they are not able to take a firm step.

Page 76

11-11-1923

A telegram from a mentally deranged Sadhaka became the topic of this evening. The Sadhaka in question wanted to die. The suggestion of death, it was thought, was due to some hereditary poison in the blood. These kinds of poisons often attack the brain.

Sri Aurobindo : It is these people who also get a sense of "sin" and the tendency to repent and humble themselves before others. Also they have very big ideas about themselves. They think they are very important in the universal scheme.

(After a pause : ) This yoga, to be done well, requires perfect balance. Therefore, those who have merely a general call for yoga should not go in for this yoga because it opens a possibility for the Higher Consciousness to work as well as a possibility for the powers of the vital world to come and take possession. If a man has not got the perfect balance, it becomes easier for these powers to take possession. Sometimes the man who has no faith in things invisible is much better off than the man who has faith in them or the man who has a tendency towards occultism. He is generally free – comparatively – from attacks from the other planes because he does not accept them and so is not open to them. While the man who believes in them gives them a chance. In this yoga you must have a "sane" mind.

Disciple : The general idea is that unless one has got a "screw loose" in his brain one would not come for yoga. (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : How do you mean ? If a screw is loose then the machine is not doing its work at all !

Disciple : The idea seems to be : the more "loose screws" the better chance for yoga. (Laughter)

Page 77

Sri Aurobindo : You mean myself? (Laughter}

Disciple : I did not mean that. But does it mean that a sane man is more fit for yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : A perfect yoga requires perfect balance.

Disciple : I am afraid, the sane men generally are matter-of-fact.

Sri Aurobindo : Not necessarily. What do you mean by "sane" ?

Disciple : Sane does not mean "dull".

Sri Aurobindo : Of course not; when I speak of want of balance in these people, I do not mean they are "insane". It only means that their development is not proportionate, it is lop-sided or there is a twist somewhere in the nature which prevents the harmonious development of all the parts. (A period of silence)

Sri Aurobindo : That was the thing that saved me all through, I mean the perfect balance. First of all I believed that nothing is impossible, and at the same time I could question everything. If I had believed in every- thing that came I would have been like Bijoy Krishna Goswami.,

Disciple : What is "perfect balance" ?

Sri Aurobindo : A perfect yogi can have strong imagination and equally strong reason. Imagination can believe in everything while reason works out the logical steps, Even in the case .of-scientists you find they have very strong imagination.

Disciple : It is not exactly imagination, perhaps.

Sri Aurobindo : Imagination is the power of conceiving things beyond the ordinary experience of life.

Disciple : Does it correspond to Truth ? Or is there a higher faculty of which imagination is the representative in the mind ?

Sri Aurobindo. : It ultimately becomes "inspiration" when

Page 78

it ascends higher. The purer it becomes the nearer it gets to Truth. For instance, in the case of poets, generally, "it is the inspired imagination that works. What you meant to say about the scientist was perhaps "intuition". (Pause).

The capital period of my intellectual development was when I could see clearly that what the intellect said may be correct and not correct, that what the intellect justifies is true and its opposite also is true. I never admitted a truth in the mind without simultaneously keeping it open to the contrary of it.

You see. Mind means infinite possibility. Reason or intelligence chooses one to the exclusion of all the other possibilities. But it is reason which gives value to one and selects it. It is like a law in science; you accept it because it explains most of the phenomena. In the mind we accept one and suppress the other possibilities and so we see the reasons for the view we hold and other reasons are suppressed. Or the intellect goes in a futile round and justifies the choice, which has already been made by some other part of the being.

Intellect is merely selective. I felt it very clearly for a long time. And the first result was that the prestige of the intellect was gone. As you go higher up, a wider movement develops which reconciles all contraries.

Then you see the Forces that are behind mental ideas. Of course, it is no use telling this to the ordinary man as he would be in a most hopeless confusion if he saw everything as mere possibilities. For instance, you would be absolutely confounded if I placed before you all the possibilities.

Disciple : When all intellectual operations appear merely as dealing with possibilities then what is to be selected and how is one to act ?

Sri Aurobindo ; There is no need to be puzzled. Simply

Page 79

look at them, watch them, see what they are and what is behind them.

For instance, I can laugh at Shankara's Mayavad or Mahatma's views; but I can see the truth that ii behind them both. I know the place they occupy ii the play of world-forces; for, it really comes to that

Disciple : Can want of balance be overcome ?

Sri Aurobindo : Everything can be done. You can do it within your limits; you can correct the exaggerations of the parts in you that are well-developed and develop those that are suppressed and bring about balance in your being.

31-1-1924

Disciple : Has collective Sadhana any advantage over individual Sadhana ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it has.

Disciple : Has it not disadvantages also ?

Sri Aurobindo : It has some. It is an advantage to those who are less advanced and a disadvantage to those who are more advanced. Collective Sadhana always requires somebody who can create the necessary atmosphere – not by anything else but his presence.

Disciple : How could the disadvantages be overcome and the burden on the leader or leaders lightened ?

Sri Aurobindo : As I have just said, it requires somebody who can keep off certain forces and at the same time create an atmosphere by his presence. For instance I meditate with you here but I do not come out with the same consciousness that I have when I am insider The burden is not a question of any individual. No one can help it.

Page 80

26-2-1924

A question arose from Sri Aurobindo's remark about a new Disciple some days back.

Sri Aurobindo : I do not know how far he would go in the yoga but, apart from it, he has something large about him, If he takes up the Sadhana more intensely he may find many difficulties, especially in the vital being. Largeness is an asset as well as an obstacle. But if he can go through, the result would be richer and more ample in his case. He is not, like K, straight and limited.

Disciple : Suppose two men begin the practice of the Supramental yoga and attain perfection in it, how, can we say that one is richer than the other, since both have reached perfection? Both are incomparable , each is great in his own way. .

Disciple : Perfection being given, I believe grades would still remain. You start with a certain fundamental stuff and you can ultimately count upon that only.

Disciple : It is .something like this : we say everything at the end of Sadhana becomes gold. . But you start with a certain amount of copper that will become gold. If you have more copper to start with you will get more gold. Is it not so ?

Sri Aurobindo : Why can there not be a richer fulfilment ? You seem to think the Supramental to be a magnificent monotony ! Why should not there be degrees among the Yogis and Siddhas?

Disciple : I have put my difficulty about the two men starting together and reaching the end. In what sense can one be said to be superior to the other, or his Sadhana richer than that of the other ?

Sri Aurobindo : Why do you assume that all should be equal and that at no time one would be greater and richer than another ? You must get rid of the democratic idea.

Page 81

There are degrees, ranges and heights in the Supermind and they may be more defined than those that you find in the mind.

Disciple: When the whole being is Supramentalised then how can any difference remain ?

.Sri Aurobindo : If you talk of the essential being, then there is no difference between you and a cat and the trees the essential Self is One. The difference exists in what one puts forth in Nature. In the Supramental also, that which is put forth through one Prakriti – nature – need not be identical with what is put forth through another; and in that case you can say that one manifestation can be richer than another.

.Disciple : I am afraid I am not giving the same meaning to "Supramentalisation". So, if .you make the meaning clear I would be able to follow.

Sri Aurobindo : By Supramentalising is meant the process by which one allows the Supramental to come and take hold of the several parts of the being ; complete Supramentalisation takes place when the Supramental takes hold of all the parts down to the physical body.

.Disciple : I also attach the same meaning to the term.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but you confuse "height" with "richness". Two persons may be on the same plane and yet one may be richer than the other.

Disciple : I grant that one may go faster ; but suppose you and I start together, then there must be no difference between us at the end !

Disciple : That is to say, if he reaches the goal first and gets hold of the Supermind – because he is faster – then you will come up and participate in the bundle ! It would be Supramental Bolshevism !

Sri Aurobindo : No, it as not exactly like that; when you come to the goal I am already gone a stage higher up, you see.

Page 82

Disciple : But what happens when you attain perfection ?

Sri Aurobindo : But what do you mean by perfection ? Perfection is a relative term. What is the Supramental state ? It is also relative, it is not absolute.

Disciple : In that way one can say that every man has got infinite possibilities in him, and so all men are equal.

Sri Aurobindo : Every man has infinite possibilities in him but what reason is there to suppose that two men at a certain time must manifest, or actualise, the same possibility ? You can say that every one has infinite possibilities realisable in an eternity of time.

Disciple : Yes. That eternity is a terrible affair ! We are talking of things to-day, and possibilities in this life and it is true they can't be the same for two persons.

Disciple : I grant that there may be a difference in the types of nature, or manifestation, but one can't say that one is richer than the other. We may at the most say that they can't be compared.

Sri Aurobindo : Why do you say that the difference can be of type only and not of degree ? Take the case of mental perfection, – though that is also imperfect and only relative, – say myself ,and B.C.Pal. Both of us began under similar circumstances and got into the same kind of work and lived at the same time. He has remained stationary in his mental growth – he has ceased to grow. He has developed more power to speak – I mean he may have been a better speaker than myself, and in such one or two directions he developed more, but in general intellectual development I have cultivated my intellect in many directions and have a richer development in my mind. The same can be said of the Supermind.

Disciple : I may illustrate the difference in types by taking Tagore and J.G.Bose – both of them are intellectuals.

Sri Aurobindo ; In the case of Tagore and Bose, on the whole

Page 83

you can say that Tagore has got a richer development than Bose. He is a greater personality also.

Disciple : What would be the final development of Supermind being brought down to the physical consciousness ? In what respect would it differ from icchā mrtyu, – death at one's will – mentioned in the old books ?

Sri Aurobindo : What is really understood as iccha mrtyu can hardly be called the conquest of death.

Disciple : Generally, when yogis know that the time for death is nearing, they draw up the Prana and prepare to die,

Sri Aurobindo : There is a process by which the Prana is drawn up into the brahmarandhra and then the man departs leaving the body. What is wanted is immunity from all sorts of diseases which are the agents of death, One must have the capacity to leave the body when one likes : that is, not be compelled to leave it by any external force. There are other kinds of pressures – for instance the psychic pressure – which may demand withdrawal from the body. In any case one must be able to leave the body like a clothing.

16-10-1925

(A friend of a Disciple who had taken yoga from some Guru came and wished to take up Sri Aurobindo's yoga. He was told that this was not his path.)

Disciple : I told him to seek out his old Guru again and stick to him. But he likes an "educated" and a "good-looking" Guru ! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : He told me during our talk that he was "weak". So I told him he must become strong he is unwilling to sit down at; his task, that means; does not want it..

Page 84

I am afraid he would not stick to anybody. And then he has got this "educated" stupidity about his Guru ! What people understand by education is some kind of ideas or thoughts and restlessness without any fixity of aim. He can take yoga from Tagore if he wants a good-looking Guru ! The whole thing is that he is not prepared to take trouble.

Disciple : His idea of mahāpurusa – great man – is that he can make small men do what they alone cannot do.

Sri Aurobindo : Do you mean to say that the mahdpurusa can aspire on his behalf, and also sit down to yoga for him ? I do not know how this idea about miraculous change by yoga has come to India. All along the Indian idea is that yoga is done by abhyāsa – practice – and tapasyā – concentrated will – and not by miracles. Some say that it came from the Vaishnava religion laying stress on consecration and prapatti – complete surrender. Some of the followers of Ramanujacharya think that as he had done the Sadhana his followers have not got to do it ! How is that possible ?

Disciple : But if that can't be done, then where is the good of mahāpurusa – the great man? Where does he stand ? (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : He stands on the ground and on his own legs ! All that he can do is to show the path ; he can give the experience and then the man must work it out by himself.

Disciple : This idea of spirituality has come from "surrender".

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but no one can do the surrender for another man ; each must make his own surrender. And surrender is not easy. If one can surrender "unconditionally" and "sarva bhāvena"– in all the parts of the becoming, as the Gita says – then there is nothing more to be done. But can a man do it ? You can't do it by merely saying, "I surrender." It must become real» that is Sadhana.

Page 85

Disciple : But then would the idea of surrender to the Guru alone be sufficient ?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by it ? Do you think it so easy to surrender ? It is very difficult, it is Sadhana itself.

Disciple : But supposing a man surrenders to a human Guru, would it be sufficient ?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by surrender to a human being ? And "sufficient" for what ?

Disciple : Sufficient for attaining Perfection or God.

Sri Aurobindo : I suppose surrender to a man means surrender to the Divine in him, and whether it would be sufficient or not depends upon the man to whom he surrenders,

Disciple : Is it the same thing as surrendering to God ?

Sri Aurobindo : I suppose when a man surrenders himself to another man, he surrenders to the Truth in the man, in what other sense can one understand it ? He can, of course, get whatever the Guru has got if he is sincere and if he has a still greater sincerity for the search he may be even greater than his Guru.

The Disciples then began to recount stories about various Gurus. The question raised was : "Should the mahapurusa call himself God ?" The difference between Rukmini's and Radha's surrender was also discussed. Rukmini laid down conditions in her surrender while Radha surrendered unconditionally.

Disciple : I now remember how Girish Chandra Ghosh some days before his death, said that though Ramakrishna had asked him to leave the burden of his Sadhana to him, yet Girish found he had not been able to transfer his burden to Ramakrishna.

Sri Aurobindo : But the idea in India is that yoga is a work of abhyāsa, – constant practice. How can one man

Page 86

do Sadhana for another ? Whatever may, be the idea in other yogas, in our yoga, at any rate, to leave the burden to the Guru would defeat its own aim. Each must work out his way by himself. What the Guru can do at the most is that he can put the Power. But the rejection and the transformation are to be done by the Sadhaka himself. He can get the help when he needs. And when the Guru can put the Power one may not be able to hold it, or one may even spend it away uselessly. Everyone has to work out his way.

A suggestion was made to the newcomer to stick to his Vaishnava Guru from whom he had got the temporary experience of peace.

His objections to the Guru were : (1) That he was a Vaishnava. (2) That he did not generally speak and explain. (3) That he was not impressive-looking.

This was reported to Sri Aurobindo.

Sri Aurobindo : All these, if they are true, instead of being disqualifications are, on the contrary, recommendations ! The fact that he can give experience in silence is a sign of a great Sadhaka. That he does not speak except when necessary is also a good sign.

He may be a Vaishnava or a Shaiva. That matters very little. That is religion ; but this man does not want any religion from him. He wants spiritual development. What has that to do with religion ?

And about impressive appearance, most of the people, who have it, get it from the vital world and turn out to be deceptive.

2-3-1926

To-day Sri Aurobindo was not in a mood to talk,

Page 87

He turned to X and said : "If you want to talk you must put forward some subject. I am devoid of all talk today."

Disciple : In this yoga what is the part of the Sadhaka and how far does it depend upon God and how far upon the Guru ?

Sri Aurobindo : 0 Lord ! That is too big a question. Do you want a mathematical reply or what ?

Disciple : I do not want mathematics ; I have already calculated.

Sri Aurobindo : What is the result ? Have you found a formula ?

Disciple : Not one, but many.

Sri Aurobindo : First of all, in this yoga if you do everything yourself you make a mess ; and yet at every moment you have to give consent to the higher movement, reject the lower and so far you have got to act. If you do not act properly then also you make a mess.

Even when you see the higher Force coming down you have to receive it properly. When the higher Force is present you have to see that you use it in the proper way without twisting or torturing it. When the higher Force is "absent, you have to act yourself and take the consequences. You can't say that God must do everything. God does not do everything that way.

Then there is the Guru. What do you mean by the Guru ? If you mean myself, I may, for the sake of convenience, consent to be called the Guru, but there is no Guru in this yoga as people ordinarily understand the term., It is the Higher Force that is coming down. Generally, whenever any such Higher Force comes down then it prepares an instrument who discovers, but, really speaking, to whom the Truth is discovered and it manifests itself in him in proportion to his power of receptivity ; there, too, the power is given to him,

Page 88

When the Power that is coming down prepares; one such instrument it becomes easy for it to come down into others who want to manifest it, who do not want to go their own way but want to have and live the Truth. Then there is chance of success. (Pointing to himself) There is the instrument. Whenever there is the human instrument it becomes easy for the higher Truth to manifest itself in life. If you prefer to call it a "dynamo" you can say so. Even then everyone has to do his own work.

In this yoga, at any rate, you can't say .that "the Guru will do everything", and leave the whole burden to him. I do not know about other yogas ; but this yoga means growing conscious every moment of what is going on in oneself. One has to ;give consent to the higher working, rejecting the lower movement. That . is the basis.

The conditions for receiving the Guru's help are the same as those for receiving the help ; of the Higher Power directly. Unless you consent to his working, even God does not help man. In this yoga there is that perfect liberty to the individual to make his choice.

Disciple : Do we get the help through you or directly ?

Sri Aurobindo : In both ways. As the Force is coming down you get it as anybody else can get it. You also get it from me. It is the same Truth. It is something beyond Mind that is coming down. If you turn to me for help you get it from me. Something from me goes to you and sets up the necessary conditions so that the Higher Force can come down into you. In fact, the two movements are not so separate as you take them to be.

Disciple : In Tirupati's case what happened ?

Sri Aurobindo : I had to tell him clearly : If you want to do what you like and then want the Guru to help you I can't do it. In his case there were two things wrong :

Page 89

he had certain, experiences and he began to indulg himself in them, to take the Bhoga of the experiences. He felt the exhilaration and the sense of power. When for .two or three days hewent without food with that weak body of his, people used ti wonder. But it was all due to the vital force, and hi entirely precipitated himself into the vital.

The second thing was that he did not want th Truth for its own sake but he wanted it so that he mighi become something great and unique – he wanted tht Truth for himself – he wanted to. become divine and used to tell me that he had already got half the Supermind. I was trying to push him into the physical consciousness. Unfortunately his psychic being had no hold over his other parts.

Disciple : Could the force that he pulled down – whatever its nature – have been warded off or kept away from him ?

Sri Aurobindo : Not unless he would consent to it himself, God himself cannot help you unless you want to be helped.

Disciple : Was the tendency to twist the Truth, this want of sincerity, in him from the very beginning ?

Sri Aurobindo : The seed of it must have been there. Such a seed can be either destroyed or developed. If you reject it, then it can be destroyed ; if you develop it, then it can become strong and grow.

Disciple : Had he no sincerity when he began the yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : There was sincerity in him, otherwise he could not have got into the yoga at all ; but when tht other thing rises up it may cloud the whole being and overcome the sincerity.

Disciple : But when the attack is coming on him, can you not save him ?

Sri" Aufobindo : I cannot be holding him tight like that a

Page 90

along. If I attend to him like that then the moment I let go the hold and attend to someone else the difficulty will get into him gain.

Disciple : Can you not change him without his consent ?

Sri Aurobindo : No. It cannot be done without his consent. Even God himself cannot and does not do like that and He is much more powerful than I am. Nothing can be done without the consent of the individual. I asked him not to pull the higher Power. He used to say "Yes Yes", but he never stopped. At last he came to such a condition that he could no longer listen to me. He used to say that what he had got was the Supermind ! When I told him it was not the Super mind, he would again say "Yes", but go on in his own way. His only salvation was in his coming to the physical mind and behaving like an ordinary man.

Disciple : Can you not make him feel that he is not sincere ?

Sri Aurobindo : No. He does not want to know ; I can give him the experience of what is the true state but it is for him to reject the lower and consent to the higher working. I can't be all along holding him.

That is to say, that part of the being which has consented to the lower play must withdraw, recoil from it : that is the condition for getting rid of the obstacle. It comes to this : in this yoga one can never be forced into the Truth. One has to consent to the Truth at every step.

Disciple : Do you think that the same is true in other yogas also ?

Sri Aurobindo i I do not know. But I think some kind of consent somewhere in the being, veiled or unveiled, is absolutely necessary for the working of the power of , the Guru. But the exterior does not matter. The real thing required is the central sincerity.

Disciple : Suppose there is the central consent.

Page 91

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by the central consent ?

Disciple : I mean by it the consent of the psychic being.

Sri Aurobindo : The psychic being is behind the mental, vital, etc., while what I call the Central Being is generally something above the whole being which presses on the nature and gets the thing done. It is that which drives the man to yoga. All the rest is merely an excuse – circumstances, intellectual ideas and such other things are mere excuses. In my own case I started with the idea of freeing India and then I entered deep into yoga, I found that something already had arisen and I went straight and all right ; otherwise I would have deviated from the path.

In this yoga it is not sufficient that the Central Being, which is generally above, should give the consent from a distance, but, when necessary, it must be able to come forward and make itself felt upon other parts. It is that which usually saves. For instance, doubt may arise a hundred times in the being and for a while, it may seem to carry you away completely ; even then it is the Central Being which asserts : "I know the Truth, I can wait for it."

Disciple : What is central sincerity ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is a very big question. You can say it is something in the central being which keeps to the call, There may be deviations from the path and also faults but if the central being is there the man comes back to the path. To have that central sincerity is the necessary condition for getting the Truth.

Disciple : Is it the case with all kinds of powers ?

Sri Aurobindo : It depends upon what kind of power you ar getting – there are so many kinds of powers.

Disciple : "Dodging and distorting" by the vital being seeinj to be the common malady. But it is very difficult to Set it right.

Page 92

Disciple : Is there no such dodging and distorting in the mental being also ?

Sri Aurobindo : There is, and it may also deviate the Sadhaka from the right path. But even then mind has after all some aspiration for the light and it is comparatively easy to enlighten it. The whole real danger comes from the vital being ; it is there that the Sadhaka deviates. It may happen that one can't do the yoga because of some physical obscurity rising up, but if one has done the work up to the vital then there is no chance of deviation. If one falls in the struggle in the physical, it is no real falling ; for, what is done will stand for the future. But if one deviates in the vital, then it is real deviation because it means defeat.

Generally such persons do not like the peace that descends. When X was here he felt that he was like an ordinary man, and he very much objected to that condition. When the higher Force is present, there is a sense of power and delight and some people mistake it for their own power and when that Force is absent they feel like chaff and, really speaking, it is so. At that time the only thing one can do is to remain quiet and calm. It is the Force that has to work and not the man.

Disciple : What are the conditions for the Force to effect the transformation?

Sri Aurobindo : If the transformation gets done in me thoroughly, then it means it is easier for others ; and if it founds itself successfully in others it means the necessary conditions are there for its continuance in the world.

Disciple : It means that time is required for it ; it also means the Truth cannot manifest itself – as a universal factor – unless the universal conditions are ready.

Sri Aurobindo : Time is the universal sense, Everything

Page 93

may be there and yet the environment may not be ready.

Disciple : Is it not very difficult to establish a sincere demand in the nervous and the physical being ?

Sri Aurobindo : Generally the physical is not insincere. In fact, it is sincere, but very obscure, conservative, slow to change, it is inert and dull.

In the nervous being the return to Ignorance comes because of the memory of the past, or because of the physical being throwing up its impurities, or the vital being throwing its impurities upon it. Therefore, in dealing with! the nervous impurities you have to see from where they come. If the vital being is sincere then the return in the nervous being comes from the physical being.

941926

The question of drinking and the use of narcotics by Sadhaks cropped up today at the evening table.

Disciple : Those Sadhaks who drink, or take narcotics, do they get Some help thereby in obtaining Samadhi?

Sri Aurobindo : All that depends upon what you call "Samadhi". My own experience in the matter is that wine and narcotics generally inhibit the action of the most Tamasic centres in the physical brain ; and the other centres in the brain get stimulated. This helps one to escape from the limitations of the physical consciousness and one may get into other planes of consciousness. .

Generally, Sadhaks who live on mountains resort I to these things to get warmth and get rid of cold. Others I might resort to them to get away from the physical consciousness.

Page 94

Disciple : Do they really get some help or merely imagine things and make it an excuse for drinking and satisfying their desire?

Sri Aurobindo : Well, it is sufficiently wellknown that drinking and use of narcotics generally enable people – whether Sadhaks or not – to escape from the physical consciousness.

Disciple : Some people write their poems under the effect of narcotics.

Sri Aurobindo : One day Mother asked a workman why he was drinking. He said that after drinking he got thoughts which he could never get when he was sober. Coleridge wrote most of his poems when he was under the influence of opium. Somebody once praised a line of Tennyson. He said : "Ah ! that line ! It cost me 25 cigars !"

So there is no reason to suppose why a Sadhaka should not derive help from it. (Then After a pause) I don't hope you have serious intentions in asking these questions ! (Laughter)

Disciple : I only want to know if they really get into Samadhi.

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by Samadhi ? If you mean an inwarddrawn condition, certainly it may help one to get into it.

Disciple : Those who drink, generally, have got a light mood – .

Sri Aurobindo : There are many moods : there is the light mood, the angry mood, the emotional mood – you would be a great Bhakta if you got into the last.

Disciple : Drinking had no effect on me : I simply used to get giddy.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the first stage.

Disciple : And then I used to go to sleep.

Sri Aurobindo : That is a kind of unconscious Samadhi. (Laughter) It may help one to concentrate, But what

Page 95

one does with that concentration depends upon the man. My own idea is that of all these people, who resort to these external stimulants, ninety percent never go beyondthe vital consciousness. They get into it and then the vital is a great builder : it constructs any number of things, worlds, states etc. It can give you an idea that you are in the Highest. There are any number of Siddhis on the vital plane and if you have proper knowledge you can get them by using these things. And even if one gets into the Brahmic con sciousness it is not that one has got the highest Truth, because the Brahmic consciousness can be had on any plane. You can have that consciousness on the mental or the vital plane.

These stimulants merely help you to get away from the physical. But what one does with that freedom depends upon the man. These are external means and therefore they have very bad reactions – they are not generally recommended in the spiritual life.

Disciple : There is a fear of Siddhis among spiritual aspirants and generally they are banned.

Sri Aurobindo : It must be due to the fact that once you get into the vital plane you find it very difficult to get tc the Truth. The general idea is that for the experiena of the Brahmic consciousness one must be always in drawn. But that is not quite true. I first had the silent Brahmic consciousness at Baroda as soon as I quieted my mind. It came, of course, to the mental being and I kept it for about a month. But I Was not unconscious, I saw people and things as Maya – all things only small and the One, the Reality, behind them.

The experience of Shunyam – the void – is stil more striking because you get into it by a sort of negation even of the Atman – Self.

Disciple : What is that Shunya consciousness ?

Page 96

Sri Aurobindo : It is difficult to describe it exactly, because it is Shunyam. A man may be passive, but then that experience of passivity is something positive. While Shunyam is nothing : it is absence of anything; the great Asat – Nonbeing – from which all things proceed – asato sadajāyata.

Disciple : Does it correspond to some Reality ?

Sri Aurobindo : What is your test for Reality ?

Disciple : Do they exist really, these states of experience ?

Sri Aurobindo : Why not ? If you ask whether they exist on the physical plane it is absurd, because by their very nature they are supraphysical. But they are real.

Disciple : What I mean is : do these states of consciousness exist ?

Sri Aurobindo : Of course The truth is that the Mental Purusha can take up any number of positions towards the ultimate Reality and in each position find a certain truth which is as absolute as the truths of the others. Each is thus complete, final. There is, for instaitee, a plane of dnanda which is selfexistent; you remain in that state, you don't care whether the house is falling or your head is breaking, or what is happening to your friends.

1851926

A question was not taken up the other day. The Disciple raised it again today : Is complete transformation possible without having a Shakti – a feminine counterpart in Sadhana ?

Sri Aurobindo evidently was not prepared to say everything that was in his mind.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't understand why it should not be possible to bring about the transformation without a

Page 97

Shakti. Transformation would be complete if one can bring down the Higher Consciousness that you get in the mind and the vital being into the physical being and even into the very cells of the material body. The condi tions of complete transformation are that you should be able to keep the same deep peace, wideness, strength, purity, power and plasticity from the mind downward to the very material cells. That is the fundamental basis. This transformation does not require a Shakti – a feminine counterpart in Sadhana.

Disciple : Perhaps he wants to say that this transformation is only possible in your case and in no other.

Sri Aurobindo : In that case, I would be in the very sorrowful plight of being the solitary transformed individual. I would be in the position of the Purusha in the beginning of creation when he found himself alone ! (Laughter}

Disciple : When He found himself alone then He was in a, hurry to create ! j

Disciple : What I wanted to say was not about doing yoga or getting Knowledge or Power, I was asking about incarnating the Divine in the body.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. Incarnating the Divine means incarnating your own divine Self that is in the Supermind. It is something quite different from your present self; it is full of knowledge, power and ananda of the Supramental plane; yet it is a Person – not merely an impesonal being. As I said, the. conditions for that Being to come down and work here are that you must have the same deep peace, wideness, strength, plasticity etc. even in your physical being. Transformation is a personal affair, I don't quite see what a Shakti has got to do with it.

You are mixing up things : 1. Transformation and the need of a Shakti, 2. You are mixing up myself and yourself!

Page 98

Disciple : No, I didn't want to mix up myself with you.

Sri Aurobindo : I thought your question about Shakti was, perhaps", a distant preliminary to an application for marriage. (Laughter)

(After a pause) I do not object to a Shakti if there is a genuine case. You can produce your Shakti, if there is one, up your sleeve ! (Laughter)

Disciple : He was thinking : "What is the good of transformation without a Shakti ?"

Disciple : I have no personal concern in the question. I wanted to understand it and to have more knowledge.

Sri Aurobindo : I am not prepared to say everything on the question. I think I have already said something on some other occasion. The function of the Shakti is something quite different. In my own case it was a necessary condition for the work that I had to do. If I had to do my own transformation, or give a new yoga, or a new ideal to a select few people who came in my personal contact, I could have done that without having any Shakti. But for the work that I had to do it was necessary that the two sides must come together. By the coming together of the Mother and myself certain conditions are created which make it easy for you to achieve the transformation. You can take advantage of those conditions.

But it is not necessary that everybody should have a Shakti. People have a passion for generalisation.

Disdple : I wanted to say that we are not as great as you.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not a question of great or small. It is a question of your being less complex than I am.

And before you can have a Shakti, you must first of all deserve a Shakti. The first condition is that you must be master of Kama, lust.

Disciple : I know it as a condition.

Page 99

Sri Aurobindo : That is not the only thing. There are so many other things; as I said I am not prepared to say everything on this matter. One thing is that both must come together and there must be complete union on every plane of consciousness.

Disciple : But if the Shakti is there then all these conditions would be fulfilled.

Sri Aurobindo : Do you think that because there is meeting between the two in the Central Being, or somewhere else, the whole thing is done ?

There are many personalities in man and in order to have complete perfection you must know the value of personality in the world. What is the true personality in you ? There are various personalities on each plane and in the case of Purusha and Shakti they must all agree. It is a long and arduous Sadhana you have to undergo before such a complete union can take place.

But that has nothing to do with transformation.

Disciple : But at the rate at which we are progressing, if I multiply by the velocity the number of years, then I find very little chance of our being able to achieve it.

Sri Aurobindo : You are, now, in the condition in which you feel that the thing is impossible; you seem to be pessimistic.

Disciple : I was not always so.

Sri Aurobindo : I am not quite sure. You can't judge from the presentday speed what it would be next year. At present we are marching on foot, then after some time we may ride on the bicycle, then in the motor car.

Disciple : Then in the aeroplane.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there was a time when I had to give up the idea of doing this work in my lifetime. There was a great push in the vital being trying to do the thing very soon. Then I had to learn to give up all those ideas and leave it to God to do whatever He likes,

Page 100

The vital being is easily elated and the physical being is depressed. I too had periods of depression, but at no time I lost faith. I knew that the thing had to be done and would be done, but I did not know whether I would be able to do it in my lifetime, or whether somebody else would do it. The periods of depression with me were never long. As a matter of fact, I find this year far better than all the past three years.

Disciple : 1. Does not the fulfilment of Sadhana mean that the power of the Higher Truth should be made dynamic and effective on the physical plane – even with regard to outside work ?

2. If so, what are the general lines and forms of that work ?

3. What is the precise nature of the role which we may have to play in it ?

Sri Aurobindo : What makes you put these questions ? There are two things : first is the constructive mind that wants to have some sort of image before it – of course, it wants mental lines and forms; secondly, it is the vital mind which wants to have a play.

It would be easy for me to reply to your questions if you want to know whether it is our aim to have the Higher Power working in all the fields of life.

I answer : "Yes, it is our aim to have the Higher Power which would be dynamic and effective in life." What again do you mean by external work ?

Disciple : I did not include Sadhana and inner changes but the dealing with and acting in the outside life.

Sri Aurobindo : How do you fix the limit ? Has not each work to do with the inside life also ?

Disciple : Yes, but there is in each work an inner and outer coefficient. I mean by external work that in which the coefficient of the outer is greater than that of the inner.

Page 101

Sri Aurobindo : Well, take the case of your cooking : would you call it external or internal work?

Disciple : I call it external work.

Sri Aurobindo : That means you have not yet established the right attitude towards it; otherwise it would be a part of your inner work as well.

Disciple : I do not exactly mean that it cannot be a part of internal work. I shall try to explain : Suppose the Supermind has come down and that we are all Supermen, We shall have to live an external life, – we shall deal with each other etc. What would be the difference between our dealing and that of an ordinary man ?

Sri Aurobindo : You ask like Arjuna in the Gita : "How does the sthitaprajna walk ? How does he speak ?"

Disciple : I don't mean that; but what would be the fundamental difference between his external life and that of an ordinary man ?

Sri Aurobindo : All fundamental change will be inner and not outer. That is to say, we shall have attained a higher consciousness and all we do will proceed from that consciousness.

But why this haste to know what would be the forms and lines" of the Truth that has not yet come down into the physical? It is just the wrong way of proceeding, It would frustrate its own aim. Supposing you fix the form with your mind and say, "Such and such shall be the lines that the higher Truth must take whatever it be." Now this form is your own mental construction, and whatever higher Truth comes down you will try to force it into that limited form.

As a matter of fact, the Truth that is coming down is not mental, it is an infinite Truth. The form it would take would be an organisation of that infinite Truth, But if you bind it down to a mental formula and say, for instance, that it should be democracy or communism

Page 102

or socialism or anything of that : sort you naturally limit the Truth.

The one thing that Sadhana has done for me is that it has destroyed all "isms" from my mind. : If you had asked this question a few years back I would have told you "it is spiritual communism" or, perhaps, "commerce, culture and commune" as the Chandernagore people say. At that time it was : my mind that received the knowledge from Above and thought that the higher Truth would take a particular form – the one that I suggested to Motilal Roy. Even at that time I was not quite sure that it was the form, – only I thought it was the proper form and I took it up as an experiment.

But now if you ask me I would say "Wait and let us have the Truth down here." Then it will not .be the mind that will give form, the Supermind itself will create its own forms. It may be fluid and plastic and can be infinitely complex in its working out.

What we are doing at present is to make ourselves fit instruments for the higher Truth, so that when it came down there would be the proper instrumentation for its working. We won't reject life; we have to bring a new consciousness into the external work. Supposing I am preparing fish for the cats. That is not my Supramental work. But as it happens to be there I do it, so as to be able to do anything that is needed in the proper way, without mistake. The tuning of the violin is not merely a physical but also a mental work – while this work is infinitely more complex. We have not to do our work mechanically, we have to become conscious of the forces that are at work and find out those that make for success and those that make for failure. We have to bring about the right movement.

Life has no "isms" in it, Supermind also has no "isms". It is the mind that introduces all "isms" and

Page 103

creates confusion. That is the difference between a man who lives and a thinker who can't. A leader who thinks too much and is busy with ideas, trying all the time to fit the realities of life to his ideas hardly succeeds. While the leader who is destined to succeed does not bother his head about ideas. He sees the forces at work and knows by intuition those that make for success. He also knows the right combination of forces and the right moment when he should act.

Not that such a man does not make a plan with his mind for himself and for others, but even after making his plan if he finds that the forces have changed he does not hesitate to turn round and adopt another course. Look at Indian politicians: all ideas, ideas – they are busy with ideas. Take the Hindu-Moslim problem. I don't know why our politicians accepted Mahatma's Khilafat agitation. With the mentality of the ordinary Madan it was bound to produce the reaction it has produced : you fed the force, it gathered power and began to make demands which the Hindu mentality had to rise up and reject. That does not require Supermind to find out, it requires common sense, Then, the Madan Reality and the Hindu Reality began to break heads at Calcutta. The leaders are busy trying to square the realities with their mental ideas instead of facing them straight.

Disciple : Will India be free before the Supramental work begins ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, that India will be free, there is no doubt. Whether it will be by several peaceful stages on all on a sudden, that is the question. But that is the business of politicians, we need not have to bring down the Supermind for that. How it will be free is too big a thing to say. I am very much against a true politician giving out his plans to be torn and discussed by all

Page 104

people. He ought to keep things to himself.

So far as I am concerned I have got my work and I am satisfied with it. Not that I have no idea about the work that would be done when the Truth comes down. But immediately at present we have to bring down a change in the physical mind, the nervous being, and the vital mind, so that they may become fit instruments of the Truth. That is a big enough work, I should think. Not that the final goal is not known. But I always keep my mind open for any change that the higher Truth may bring in it. I have got an idea but I don't want to shut out any new light that may come.

So long as you discuss mental ideas, it does not matter very much – I mean about the yoga. There you can understand something and you have prepared yourself. But why should you want to know the practical side beforehand ? In the first place, if I gave you some mental idea, you would grasp it mentally. There would be, first, the possibility of error in my idea. Then you would discuss it and create mental forms and you might commit worse mistakes and then they would ail be thrown about into the atmosphere and come in the way of its own fulfilment.

In these practical works there are not merely forces that help but also those that oppose. I don't want them to know beforehand what I am going to do. I don't believe, like Mahatma Gandhi, that secrecy in these matters is a sin. You must find out what role you have to play.

Disciple : We must have knowledge of it.

Sri Aurobindo : The higher Truth brings its own knowledge. It is not like the mind : the Truth that is coming down is knowledge.

(Turning to the Disciple) You want to know what role you have to play, but how can I tell you now ?

Page 105

I must know what is within you. You must find the true Person within yourself. First, when you have acquired the capacity to be a fit instrument of the Truth, then you will know what is intended of you. Then you find : "This is my work, and I have to do it in this way." At one time it was thought that the mind could grasp the whole Truth and solve all problems that face humanity. The mind had its full play and we find that it is not able to solve the problems. Now, we find : that it is possible to go beyond Mind and there is the Supermind which is the organisation of the Infinite consciousness. There you find the Truth of all that is in mind and life.

For instance, you find that Democracy, Socialism and Communism have each some Truth behind it, but it is not the whole Truth. What you have to do is to find out the forces that are at work and understand what it is of which all these mental ideas and "isms" are a mere indication. You have to know the mistakes which people commit in dealing with the Truth of these forces and the Truth that is behind the mistakes also. I am, at present, speaking against democracy, That does not mean that there is no Truth behind it, I know the Truth, but I speak against democracy be cause that mentality is at present against the Truth that is trying to come down.

In order to get the true form – and if you want the unhampered play of the higher Truth what you have to do is to be very open and ready for changing all your ideas – personal, social and national. Take taste and food : I was once a violent non-vegetarian, as X is at present a violent vegetarian. Then I found that it was my own vital being that was demanding meat. Well, I gave it up and for years together I went on taking whatever came my way. Then I found that

Page 106

even what people call "tasteless" and "bad" food has got a taste in it.

Disciple : Is it the experience’ of Sama Rasa – the essential delight in everything ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, today I am a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian together and I know what people want to enjoy when they demand and insist; on a certain kind of food. In order to arrive at that stage you have to give up your individual likes and dislikes – because that is a very limited condition – and enter into the universal consciousness and find :what the cosmic spirit enjoys through each of these forms, what delight it derives from each.

Disciple : What relation will ;the Superman have with outside humanity?

Sri Aurobindo : You again come to the old question of humanity. I have nothing directly to do with it. If this supramental Truth comes down then of course no problem remains because in the Supermind there are no problems – there is Truth. But it is not likely to happen that way, because that is not the way things are done in this universe. We can expect a small beginning. When the highest Truth comes down in its full power then humanity may manifest even the perfection of the Divine in life in this world. But that is not yet.

107

1881926

Disciple ; Is it possible to have some idea of the minimum requirement for being a Superman ?

Sri Aurobindo : Is this not like an examination ? It is rather a hard question to answer.

Disciple Has anybody attained Supermanhood ?

Page 107

Sri Aurobindo : No. But one may say that it requires : 1.Complete opening from the highest mind to the most material part – all must open to the Truths – a sort of perfect square from top to bottom. 2. Raising the centre of consciousness into the plane of the Truth consciousness so that one is normally seated on the Supramental plane.

Disciple : All the time ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, all the time. The third thing needed is the establishment of harmony between, and organisation of, all the movements of nature – mental, vital and physical in the light of the Truth. All this not in order one after another but at the same time,

Disciple : What are the gradations of the Supermind ?

Sri Aurobindo : The gradations of the Supermind are four; 1. Saramā 2. Saraswati 3. Ilā 4. Daksinā.

Disciple : When all the parts of the being are opened to the Truth, does the struggle with the hostile forces become more acute ?

Sri Aurobindo : That depends on the work that is done before the opening : that is to say, one must have worked out to some extent the impurities in the nature before the opening. " All this one must have done consciously.

Disciple : Has it to be done before the opening ?

Sri Aurobindo : Why ? opening also means becoming conscious of the movement of nature.

Generally, one goes through the gradations of the Supermind. I have written about it in the Arya. Then I was speaking not about the highest Supermind but about the highest Supermind "in the Mind". There is, for instance, the Intuitive Mentality. It is not Supermind but Mind. You can say it is Supermind working on the basis of Mind – by flashes. From the point of view of the highest Supermind, intuitions are "glorious guesses". Of course, the guesses may be quite correct.

Page 108

The other three gradations are : 1. the Representative 2. the Interpretative 3. the Imperative. As you go on developing, the higher and higher grades become active. The Intuitive Mentality is a kind of "modified Supermind".

Disciple : What do you mean by "modified Supermind" ?

Sri Aurobindo : Supermind as it comes down modifies the mental movements and in turn gets modified itself also.

Disciple : What is Agni ? What is Kratu ?

Sri Aurobindo : Agni is the power behind all internal effort. Kratu is will and some other things also.

Disciple : You said yesterday that watches respond to mental thought and will. What did you exactly mean by it ?

Sri Aurobindo : That they respond to your suggestion if you can make it in the right way.

Disciple : What kind of suggestion ? .

Sri Aurobindo : Of any kind. Only, it must be done in the proper way. :

Disciple : What kind of response do the watches make ?

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, they don't jump off the table if you want them to.

Disciple : Can they be, made to go slower or faster ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. And they can be made to stop or start by suggestion.

Disciple : If a watch is out of order, will it start if I give the suggestion ?

Sri Aurobindo : No, not if there is something wrong in the mechanism. There must be sufficient mechanical basis for the suggestion.

Disciple : Can fire be lighted by exertion of willpower ?

Sri Aurobindo : That is a different thing.

Disciple : Will the trigger of a gun go off if I exert my will ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, If you have a will sufficiently strong for the purpose. It may take some time before the response comes,

Page 109

Disciple : When there are many Supermen, what language will they use ? Or would they use the same language and convey more meaning and force ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is not necessary to be Supermen for that; poets can do that without being Supermen.

Disciple : All our language is mental and it is said that at one time there was only one natural language.

Sri Aurobindo : Our language is not mental in its origin, it was only half-mental at the most. Man began to use language not so much to express ideas as to convey "sensations" and a certain sound was made to convey a certain sensation. The word employed was not so important as the sound itself and the different shades of it were conveyed by intonations of the same sound,

Disciple : It is said that in the beginning there was only one language.

Sri Aurobindo : It is likely. In the past, men used sounds to convey sensations and each word expressed many "things" –

As mind developed, ideas began to be expressed and each word was bound down to convey only one meaning. This evolution of language is very clearly visible in the history of Sanskrit and at one time I proceeded far enough into the study of the subject,

Disciple : How can the general atmosphere of humanity affect the Sadhana of the individual or the group ?

Sri Aurobindo : You see all sorts of things come to you from the universal ; that is, from the general atmosphere of humanity – thoughts and ideas in the mind, impulses ; etc. in the vital being and so on. It is for this reason that a Sadhaka has to isolate himself from the general atmosphere and create his; own fort where; these things cannot come in easily.

Page 110

6-9-1926

Disciple : What is the ideal relation of a Disciple to his Guru ?

Sri Aurobindo : Ask some other question ! You must find it out within yourself.

Disciple ; What should be the relation of the Guru to his Disciple ?

Sri Aurobindo : That I know. (Laughter)

Disciple ; What should be the relation between the Disciples themselves ?

Sri Aurobindo : That you better ask K. He will be able to explain.

Disciple : How can there be a fixed relation by rule ?

Sri Aurobindo : In these matters it is no good forming mental ideas and ideals and trying to cut the behaviour according to it. Again, it depends on the Guru.

Disciple : What I wanted to know was: is there anything like grace–what it called Ahaituki krpā?

Sri Aurobindo : You mean to say that the Guru would give everything whether the Disciple deserved it or not ? What do you mean by ahaituki krpā ?

Disciple : I do not know the exact meaning, but I believe it is what may be called "grace". Something from the Divine descending in man.

Sri Aurobindo : But grace is also a part of divine wisdom. You do not mean to say that divine grace is due to a chance caprice of God ! It is there because the divine knows its purpose.

Disciple : Ahaituki bhakti and, krpa means .that .there is no purpose – that is, human purpose or reason – which man can attribute to it. But there is always some other purpose which man may not be knowing.

Sri Aurobindo : That is a different matter ; it may have no human purpose,

Page 111

Disciple : Then is there nothing like the personal side of the Guru ? I was all along thinking that there is the personal side as well as the impersonal side. Any one who opens himself to the impersonal side of the Guru gets the Truth, but unless there is surrender to the personal it is not complete. This personal side of the Guru can use divine grace.

Sri Aurobindo : It depends on the Guru. If he is a human Guru then his personal vital or mental preferences may play a part and often they falsify the purpose of grace. The less they interfere the better. But what did you mean by the personal and the impersonal ? Do you mean to say that if you gave me a lot of fruits and other things every day there would be a lot of spiritual things going from me to you ? (Laughter)

Disciple : It will depend upon the object with which one gives the fruit etc.

Disciple : It will be ahaituk fruit.

Disciple. : Yes, ahaituka offering with an eye to Ahaituki krpa ! (Laughter)

Disciple (to Sri Aurobindo) : But then, is there nothing like patit-pāvan –the Divine purifying the fallen and the low ?

Sri Aurobindo : That is sentimentalism.

Disciple : It is specially the work of grace to raise up the adhama – "the low and the fallen".

Sri Aurobindo : That is to say, the Divine must neglect the uttama, the best, and be partial to the adhama, the low ? (Laughter)

It is like the Christian idea that he who is favoured by God gets a "flogging". The more a man is flogged the more favoured he is !

Disciple : Is there nothing, then, like personal grace ?

Sri Aurobindo : As I said, it depends on the Guru. You don't mean to say that the personal side of the Guru decides

Page 112

voluntarily and independently of the Divine what is to be given to a Disciple. Even when it appears to take that form it is something else that decides. The more the personal element (in the sense of the vital or mental preference on the part of the Guru) the more is the likelihood of mistake being committed. If he is a mere human Guru, then if he is a Bengali he would like to give his grace to Bengalis or he would choose his relatives. That has nothing to do with the divine work. All that idea about patit-pāvan and adham uddhār means only this that however bad or seemingly wicked the external life may be, the man can yet be saved if he has something in him which can receive the Truth. One may say that even for grace to descend there are conditions.

Disciple : Are there conditions determined by the Divine ?

Sri Aurobindo : If you take the stand that everything is decided by the Divine then we have nothing to do but to sit still. If you drive the matter to a mental logical extreme then you have to come to a dead stop.

But, taking things as they are, man has his part to play.

Disciple : Is there anything like predestination, everything about a man being fixed by something Divine ?

Sri Aurobindo : No, as I said already, in these questions, so long as man is talking mentally, his words will hardly have any sense. For, the thing that is decided the decision is taken on so high a plane that for man to say that "all is decided" is rather too much.

Disciple : It is the Higher Power that does everything in our yoga.

Sri Aurobindo : Even then your consent is necessary at every step.

Disciple : I suppose "surrender" is the chief condition ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is one of the conditions. There is also the

Page 113

power to receive the Force and many other things. It is not as simple as many people imagine – that the Guru gives and the disciple takes.

Disciple : Is it not true that of all the disciples of Ramakrishna, Vivekananda got the greatest benefit ?

Disciple : You mean spiritual benefit ?

Sri Aurobindo (after a pause) : Well, it is very doubtful; evidently he was the strongest of them all and so he manifested it most and put it forward in his expression. But that is not the measure of spirituality.

Disciple : For instance, a silent man like Brahmananda may have more of it than any other.

Sri Aurobindo : Many times outer success is not beneficial to a man's inner progress. Sometimes it may be better for a man's progress that he should fail than succeed.

Disciple : Why ?

Sri Aurobindo : Because success may mean being led away from the path ; of course, it depends upon what you mean by success. If you mean success in external life then it is a different matter. But if you mean "following the upward line of his evolution" then the so-called outward success may be harmful.

Disciple (turning to another) : Suppose you had become a minister – you might have been successful in the external sense, but what would have happened to your spiritual development ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, and our X would have been a big official somewhere and might have retired with a pension. (Laughter)

Disciple : And Y would have been a diabetic professor. (Laughter}

Disciple : Instead of a dyspeptic yogi.

Sri Aurobindo : And Z would have been a mammoth athlete like Ram Murthy.

Disciple : Instead of a rheumatic Sadhaka.

Page 114

Sri Aurobindo : Why, if I had followed the line of external success I would have been somewhere in Baroda ! That life was easy.

Disciple : But what would have become of your energy ?

Sri Aurobindo : Do you think I had then the same energy that I have got now ?

Disciple : But the possibility and capacity must have been there.

Sri Aurobindo : It is like the seed of a tree. If it does not get the soil it may not grow. If I had stuck to my job I would have been a Principal, perhaps, written some poetry and lived in comfort like a bourgeois.

All the energy that I have I owe to yoga. I was very incapable before. Even the energy that I put forth in politics came from yoga.

Disciple : You said about the forces that control money that two conditions were necessary. First, one must be very calm and must not get disturbed and have no desire for money. Secondly, it requires a bojhāpadā – an understanding – with the universal forces. What is this understanding ?

Sri Aurobindo : There are many ways. Even in the case of one man there are different methods, I mean in the yogic sense, which he can follow. First, you must put your need before God and ask him to satisfy it ; your duty ends there. In that case you need not have any bojhāpadā – understanding – with the universal forces.

But we look upon money as a power of the Divine, and, as with everything else, we want to conquer it for the Divine in life. Hence, in our case an "understanding" is necessary. As the money-power to-day is in the hands of the hostile forces, naturally, we have to fight them. Whenever they see that you are trying to oust them they will try to thwart your efforts. You

Page 115

have to bring a higher power than these and put them down. First, they try to trick you by offering success, – one can say, by trying to buy you up. If a man falls into that trap then his spiritual future is ruined.

You have really to follow a certain rhythm of the money-power, the rhythm that brings in and the one that throws out money. Money is given to you in the beginning ; then, you have to deserve it. You have to prove that you do not waste it. If you waste it, then you lose your right to it.

Disciple : What is waste ?

Sri Aurobindo : Waste is waste. Throwing away money without any order, unorganised expenses without regard to the means of getting money or to the utility of spending. It is not that you have to hoard money. It is there for being spent. But we must spend it in the right way – in a certain order and with an arrangement.

Sometimes the Divine even follows man's caprices, as is typified in the case of men like Thakur Dayananda,

Disciple : Yes. Whatever he gets must be spent away on that very day, that is the rule; and they all wait till they get their next day's food.

Sri Aurobindo : The result is that sometimes for seven days they get so much food that they can't eat and then fifteen days they have to starve !

Disciple : Even the young children go without food for period.

Sri Aurobindo : Well, that is a chaotic movement ; but he follows it !

Disciple : Even the industrial magnates who get money into that rhythm of which you spoke.

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, they do, otherwise they can get rich. They take it in and then again they throw it out, then it returns and again it is thrown out. That

Page 116

is the reason why they get colossal wealth. These rich people often have no attachment to money, it is the action of the vital force that they enjoy, not their money.

Disciple : It is a life-movement.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. That was the ideal of the Vaishya as opposed to the Bania – the miser. The Vaishya was the man who could get tremendous wealth and could spend it liberally, could establish the interchange and enter into the rhythm.

Disciple : But these Marwadis who are very rich are attached to their wealth.

Sri Aurobindo : No.

Disciple : No, they are not. We think them greedy because they don't give money in the way in which we want them to give. They generally spend it in the old conventional way. We think them greedy also because they are particular about small things in their business caring for pies.

Sri Aurobindo : It is very necessary. It is exactly that which brings them the money.

Disciple : Henry Ford has also got that habit and so has become rich. He describes in his biography how he started with the idea not of making money but of giving people a quick conveyance at a small price.

Sri Aurobindo : The Americans have got the knack of getting into the rhythm which brings them money. The French method, for instance, does not succeed because they follow out small narrow paths, while the Americans boldly get into movement on a large scale and money circulates and as it circulates it accumulates and increases life wherever it flows.

Disciple : You said that some men have got in their vital being a special capacity that draws money to them.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. Some have it. And some women also

Page 117

have got it. Women can give a tremendous push to a man in anything he does. There are also women who are laxmi chādā – those that take away what you may have.

9-9-1926

Disciple : Can the attack of the hostile forces be made use of by the Sadhaka for his progress ?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you exactly mean ?

Disciple : In our yoga we have to discontinue the lower movement of nature as being an obstacle to Sadhana, but the Tantrics – specially the Vira Sadhakas – turn these obstacles to account and, taking help from these, they build up spiritual life.

Sri Aurobindo : How?

Disciple : That is my question.

Sri Aurobindo : I have no objection to taking fish and even you can take wine, if it suits you, but how can the sexual act be made to help in spiritual life ? In itself the sexual act is not bad as the moralists believe. It is a movement of nature which has its purpose and is neither good nor bad. But, from the yogic point of view, the sexual force is the greatest force in the world and if properly used helps to recreate and regenerate the being. But, if it is indulged in in the ordinary way, it is a great obstacle for two reasons. First, the sexual act involves a great loss of vital force, it is a movement towards death, though this is compensated by creation of new life. That it is a movement towards death is proved by the exhaustion felt after it; many people feel even a disgust.

Disciple : But statistics have been collected to show that married people live longer than bachelors.

Page 118

Sri Aurobindo : That is a fallacy. .Someone will say that he lived a hundred years because he did not smoke and another will assert that he has lived up to that age with smoking.

The second reason is : the excitement accompanying the ordinary sexual act destroys the psychic possibilities of the man. He gets separated and dissociated from the higher centres of consciousness and goes downwards. People say that they take the attitude of Shakti taking Bhoga through them, but that is only a way of saying. People indulge in lower movements, yield to hostile forces and at the same time pass as yogis. Even, the Vedantic attitude is often made an excuse for yielding to the hostile forces. "All this is Maya, illusion, there is no virtue, no sin, no good, no evil," they say and give themselves up to lower vital forces.

Disciple : But are the lower movements of nature themselves not hostile ?

Sri Aurobindo : No, but they offer an opening to the hostile forces and the hostile forces use these lower movements for their own purpose.

Disciple : As regards the degrading effects of the sexual act, does marriage and legal sanction make any difference ?

Sri Aurobindo : Absolutely none. These moral injunctions are for the maintenance of society, for the welfare of the children born, but so far as the yogic life is concerned the sexual act with one's own wife is as much harmful as that with any other woman. Only those who have risen above the human level, those who have a certain kind of spiritual force as well as vital force, can possibly make a proper use of the sexual act for a spiritual purpose. If Sadhakas at a lower stage take to these things they are certain to fall.

Disciple : If the sexual act is so full of danger, why should

Page 119

it at all be used as a help ? Why not confine oneself to a safer course ?

Sri Aurobindo : That is a dangerous question to answer. I shall answer that question when you have risen above the human level.

Disciple : When one has reached, that level beyond the human consciousnes, how is the loss due to the sexual act averted ? What happens to the excitement and dissociation from the higher centres of consciousness?

Sri Aurobindo : The Higher Power can take up the things in its own way and prevent the harmful effects. Then the method and the act become absolutely different from the human.

Disciple : My original question was whether the attack of the hostile forces can be utilised by the Sadhaka ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes ; by conquering it. The Sadhaka acquires knowledge of the action of the hostile forces and of the defects in his own nature which invite the attack.

Disciple : Does he acquire anything more than the knowledge ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, new openings may occur to the Higher Power, his strength may increase and so forth.

Disciple : Can a hostile force be changed and transformed by conquest into something good and helpful ?

Sri Aurobindo : A force of nature can be so transformed, but how can you change a hostile being or its; force? Of course, the hostile beings have certain forces of nature in their clutches. If you conquer the hostile beings these forces of nature are liberated and help in fulfilling the Lila of God. Thus anger is a; force, of; nature in the clutches of hostile powers. If it can be freed from their influence, it can be used for the divine purpose.

Disciple : How can 'anger' act in the divine way ?

Sri Aurobindo : God does not hesitate to strike or smite.

Page 120

He often behaves in a manner which to the ordinary mind may appear to be cruel. But the attitude is quite different. Thus, in the Vedas, the Panis steal the cows of heaven – the Sun – and conceal them in the caves. When the Panis are conquered the cows are released and rise heavenward.

Disciple : So, can one say that the Higher Power sends hostile forces to the Sadhaka ?

Sri Aurobindo : The hostile forces are there and the Higher Power may use them for its own purpose. Of course, everything comes from the Supreme Power, but that must not be understood in the crude way. The hostile power may be used to test the capacity of the Sadhaka.

Disciple : The Higher Power may, sometimes, act as a hostile power as when by the descent of the Higher Power the Sadhaka breaks down.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, by the descent of the Higher Power the unfit Adhars break down, while the fit ones progress. There are certain risks but all great achievements involve dangers and risks. When one is not fit and prepared and constantly calls to God, "Come down, come down," then the Power may come down and the Adhar may collapse.

Disciple: Is the power of the hostile attack always proportional to the resisting power of the Sadhaka ?

Sri Aurobindo : Not always ; otherwise why so many failures and defeats ? The Guru may fill the deficiency.

Disciple : At times does the Guru even ward off the attack without any effort on the part of the Sadhak ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. There is no general rule; in some eases the Guru does the whole thing, sometimes the Sadhaka acts and the Guru helps – which means that the Higher Power helps and the Guru is made only an instrument.

Page 121

10-9-1926

Disciple : In the Tantra there seems to be symbolism. There are different Chakras – centres – which open one after another.

Sri Aurobindo : There is no fixed rule as to which opens first. The heart is the psychic centre and if that opens first, it is a very good opening.

Disciple : It is said that in the Vāman, incarnation God, in the form of the dwarf, demanded three steps from the Titan, Bali. Does that signify that the three worlds – the physical, the vital and the mental – were in the Asura's possession and the Divine demanded that they should be liberated and become the dominions of God himself ?

Sri Aurobindo : I suppose so ; but as yet the liberation remains unaccomplished.

Disciple : When the Mind is transformed by the action of the Higher Power what are the changes that take place in the Mind?

Sri Aurobindo ; Which part of the mind ? The thinking mind ?

Disciple : Yes.

Sri Aurobindo : The reasonings and the fanciful constructions of the mind cease : there remains only a play of intuitions.

Disciple ; Does not reason remain, at all ?

Sri Aurobindo : When the whole mind is intuitionised, it knows directly and therefore needs no reasoning. I see you before me; so, why should I argue whether you exist or not ?

Disciple : Reason may not be required for acquiring the Truth, but, for practical application of the Truth reasoning may be necessary.

Sri Aurobindo ; Do you think that Truth is not practical?

Page 122

The Truth is not something abstract. As long; as the mind reasons there is the possibility of error.

Disciple : As regards mental constructions, – are they always incorrect ? May not they be inspired by the Truth ?

Sri Aurobindo : Mind may build on its intuitions, but there is every likelihood of its committing mistakes or errors. Mental transformation is a gradual process. First, the reasoning and constructions are silenced. Then the mind becomes intuitionised. Then one feels that there is something above which is much more than intuition. Intuition goes downwards and the higher Truth takes the place of intuition. At present, you find it difficult to understand how all reasoning and constructions of the mind can cease. That can be understood when you know what is intuition.

Disciple : I understand that reasoning and constructions are obstacles to the coming of the Truth.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, if you go on eternally with them the Truth will not come.

Disciple : Then one must correct these things before the higher Truth can come down.

Sri Aurobindo : You cannot do that ; it is only the Truth which can change the nature and activities of the mind. You can only quiet them so that the Truth may come down and take up the Transformation.

Disciple : If the mind is silenced, will the Truth come down ?

Sri Aurobindo : If you do nothing else but merely silence the mind you will have a silent mind and nothing else.

Disciple : When a developed mind opens to the Truth and an underdeveloped mind opens to it which will be the richer of the two ?

Sri Aurobindo : First you have to see whether the under-developed mind can open itself to the higher Truth ; generally it cannot. Then, it may have a narrow opening and the result will be limited. The higher

Page 123

Truth may afterwards develop the mind but if the mind is already developed, there is already a rich material upon which the Truth can work. But the too much developed mind is also an obstacle. It has its fixed habits, its fixed grooves to which it sticks tenaciously. With the coming down of the Truth the mind may suddenly develop new powers – painting or poetry etc.

Disciple : Would it not mean that the preparation for these faculties was done in a past life ?

Sri Aurobindo : You do not mean to say that if a man begins to understand Chinese suddenly he was a Chinese in his past birth ?

20-9-1926

Disciple : How is it that some unfit persons are drawn this yoga while some fit persons are not drawn to it

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by being "drawn" ?

Disciple : I mean something in them pushes them to this yoga and then it is found that they are unfit and; they are pushed simply to be broken.

Sri Aurobindo : You mean to say that the man is pushed by something hostile into the yoga and that there is nothing in him that wants it ?

Disciple: Yes.

Sri Aurobindo : It can't be. Something in the man who takes the yoga wants the Truth, but the other parts may not be able to follow it.

Disciple : That is to say, such persons are not fit for yoga, and yet they take to it and get broken.

Sri Aurobindo : What is "fitness" ?

Disciple : We mean an aspiration for the Truth and some strength in the vital being and a developed mind.

Page 124

Sri Aurobindo : Well, a man may have ; all the necessary qualifications you speak of and may appear "strong, and yet he may not be able to go through ; while another man may appear weak and yet something behind intervenes and he is able to go through. So there is no mental rule in this matter.

Disciple : But if they are not fit what is it that pushes them into the yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : As I say, something in them wants the yoga and pushes them. In some cases it is "destiny" that pushes them.

Disciple : What is meant by destiny" ?

Sri Aurobindo : Well, it is a general term to cover up anything inexplicable (Laughter).

Disciple : Does it mean that the man is driven to the path because he is "chosen" ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, you can call it "chosen" or "accepted" or anything else you like; that won't help the matter.

Disciple : But many people think they are chosen by t. yet they don't succeed.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not a; question of your "thinking" that you are chosen. There are plenty of people who think that they are, accepted – while as a matter of fact they are not. On the other hand, there are people who go on persisting in the belief that they are not accepted almost, to the, very end and then they find that they have succeeded.

Disciple : I was thinking of X whether anything in him really wanted the yoga.

Sri Aurobindo : How do you mean ? He had at any rate something which wanted the yoga, otherwise he would not have been pushed into it. But the arrogance of his mind and vital being came in the way and he lost the chance,

Page 125

Disciple : Take the case of people from X district. How much they try, and yet they do not make any headway and still they persist in pursuing what they call Sadhana. I wonder why they do it. And has their doing it any utility ?

Sri Aurobindo : Evidently, because something in them wants the yoga but the Adhar, the material instrumentation, is unfit. And about utility, how can you know the utility ? Something is working and these are, as it were, materials in the boiling pot. Some get prepared, others don't. You can't wait and start the spiritual life after all the conditions are secure. And what is fitness ?

Disciple : I don't know. I want you to tell me.

Sri Aurobindo : I have not come across anyone who has all the fitness required for this yoga. What is your idea of fitness ?

Disciple : We see some people who look to us "fit" for this yoga but they don't come to it while others who have nothing come to it and don't get anything.

Sri Aurobindo : And there are cases where what you call a strong man breaks down and the weak man some how manages to go through.

Disciple : What are the conditions of success in this yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : I have often told of them. Those go through who have the central sincerity. It does not mean that the sincerity is there in all the parts of the being. In that sense no one is entirely ready. But if the central sincerity is there it is possible to establish it in all the parts of the being.

The second thing necessary is a certain receptivity in the being, what we call, the "opening" up of all the planes to the Higher Power.

The third thing required is the power of holding the higher Force, a certain ghanatwa – mass – that can hold the Power when it comes down.

Page 126

And about the thing that pushes there are two things that generally push : One is the Central Being. The other is destiny. If the Central Being wants to do something it pushes the man. Even when the man goes off the line he is pushed back again to the path. Of course, the Central Being may push through the mind or any other part of the being. Also, if the man is destined he is pushed to the path either to go through or to get broken,

Disciple : There are some people who think they are destined or chosen and we see that they are not "chosen".

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, plenty of people think that they are specially "chosen" and that they are the first and the "elect" and so on. All that is nothing.

Disciple : Then, can you. say who is fit out of all those that have come ?

Sri Aurobindo : It is very difficult to say. But this can be said that everyone of those who have come in has some chance to go through if he can hold on to it.

Disciple : There is also a chance of failure.

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, and besides, the whole universe is a play of forces and one can't always wait till all the conditions of success have been fulfilled. One has to take risks and take his chance.

Disciple : What is meant by "chance" ? Does it mean that it is only one possibility out of many others, or does it mean that one would be able to succeed in yoga ?

Sri Aurobindo : It means only that he can succeed if he takes his chance properly. For instance, X had his chance.

Disciple ; Those who fall on the path or slip, do they go down in their evolution ?

Sri Aurobindo : That depends. Ultimately, the Yoga may be lost to him.

Disciple : The Gita says : Na hi kalyānkrt – nothing that is beneficial – comes to a bad end.

Page 127

Sri Aurobindo : That is from another standpoint. You must note the word is kalyān krt – it is an important addition.

Disciple : It is written in a book that the Japanese have given up their own instruments and have taken to European music. Is it true ?

Sri Aurobindo : For that we must ask-X.

Disciple : I think Japanese instruments are also found in plenty – you also find European instruments, orchestra etc. There are places where you find Japanese music and drama patronised and there are many people who like them very much.

The talk then turned to the Theosophical Lodge started in Japan, which ceased functioning very soon after the founder had left Japan.

Sri Aurobindo : Probably, even in the Lodge there were more foreigners than the Japanese

Disciple : There were only two Japanese, one Dutch, one Pole and so on. The Japanese mind is not interested in these things – philosophy, metaphysics etc.

26-9-1926

Disciple : How can a man get things done for him by the Higher Power unless the Higher Power becomes known to him or is, at least, partly realised ?

Sri Aurobindo : If it is known by the mind, then, like all mental realisations, it gets mixed up. Mind divides, infers, conceives and then lays down mental standard for the Divine. It dictates to God that He shall satisfy mental standards. Mind is not the entire consciousness, it is partial. Mind is, again, arrogant and believes that it is the highest instrument, the master or even king of the

Page 128

universe. It has the error of false knowledge, it is limited to partial light.

The Vital mind is rampagious ; it wants to do things, it is violent. It says : "Yes, I surrender, but I want God to do this." It does not say it does not want to surrender. The physical mind is obscure and dull. In the vital, almost unconsciously to oneself, one tries to make a show – there is a tendency to pretension.

In the ideal case one is ready to admit one's own defects and be on guard to watch with spiritual humility. But all these things make the Higher Power's working very difficult in the lower nature. Therefore we insist so much on sincerity in this yoga. It is the psychic being which has no such pretensions because it knows and can surrender to the Divine. It is therefore that in our yoga the awakening of the psychic being is so important. That alone gives one the psychic tact which steers clear of all difficulties.

Disciple : : Can one allow the Higher Power to take charge of his Sadhana ?

Sri Aurobindo : You can leave the building up of the Sadhana to the Higher Power.

2-10-1926

Disciple : There is an article in the Madras Mail by Keynes in which the writer says that the attempt in modern times to establish Government monopoly is not desirable and people do not know what really happens.

Sri Aurobindo : The writer is too busy looking at facts and so he does not see what is coming. The struggle between Capital and Labour is there and Socialism and Collectivism or Communism had to

Page 129

be brought in to counteract the individualistic tendencies of the present-day civilisation. Assertion of the collective being is necessary for organisation and efficiency because the tendency of Capitalism was, and would be, to concentrate the power of.money in the hands of the few. It is futile to expect the capitalists to move from philanthropic motives. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism have each a truth behind them. Formerly there were three parties viz. Capital, Labour and the Government. In some countries the governments have been largely influenced by capitalists. For instance, in England the Government acting as a third party has hardly remained neutral. It is clear from the coal-strike. It is really very difficult for any Government to resist the power of money, except in a country like Russia which is based on revolutionary principles. Even there the Government has identified itself with labour and, from all reliable reports, it has made the condition of the labourers much better, as far as could be done in a poor country like Russia. In Italy, Mussolini tried to establish the Government as a third party to control both Labour and Capital but even there Capital seems to have largely succeeded.

(The topic was changed by a question from a Disciple.)

Disciple : You said yesterday that realisation of God is not sufficient to change human nature.

Disciple : The question arose from a conversation which we had about the Christian mystics. They have an idea that once they realise the Divine Consciousness there is nothing else to be done. They also maintain that after that all the work a man does is., not his but God's,

Page 130

Sri Aurobindo : How do they know ? And what "divine" work do they do ?

Disciple : Generally, they were monks and so they used to do the work of the Church.

Sri Aurobindo : That is what I say, that even when one gets the experience of the Divine Consciousness once, one generally remains what he was in his mental and vital being. And so they go about with the usual ideas of the Church or religion in the orthodox sense, making themselves believe that it is the divine work.

It is another side of the Adwaitawadins – the monists – who believe the world to; be Maya, illusion. Once you get the realisation of the Brahman the rest does not matter – they don't mind what happens to the lower nature. If there are movements in the mental or the vital being, they are simply due to the past .impulse, and you have nothing to do with them, they are outside you, they do not belong to you.

When I said that-mere realisation of God is not sufficient I meant that such a realisation is not; sufficient to bring about a permanent change of consciousness. It needs the working of the dynamic Power of God to change human nature.

Disciple : It so happens in their case because even the first glimpse of the Divine Consciousness is so over-powering, that -it is too much for them ! They are satisfied with the experience.

Sri Aurobindo : It is true that all ādhārs – nature-formations – have not the capacity to hold the Divine Consciousness and they don't make any effort to increase the capacity of the natural instrument. Once you come down from the Divine Consciousness you are again like an ordinary man. One ought to go on increasing the capacities of his natural instrument in complexity and many-sidedness so as to hold the Divine when it comes down.

Page 131

Disciple : They speak of Samadhi in which one enters into Turiya – the fourth state.

Disciple : I find it very difficult to enter into Turiya. Immediately I try I go to sleep ! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : That means you don't go deep enough.

Dsciple : What happens to their nature-part after their realisation of the Brahman ?

Sri Aurobindo : They don't care about what happens to their nature-part. It is this idea of realisation that gave the belief that one who realises the Brahman acts like bāla, (a child), jada, (inert), unmatta, (a mad man), or pisāch, (one possessed by lower vital forces).

Disciple : It is very easy to become jadavat – like one inert.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't think it is so easy. I think the only man who came very near to it was Jada Bharat, the sage.

Disciple : Even he burst out while carrying the king's palanquin, – the occasion was too tempting ! (Laughter)

Disciple : But Shankara must have got into the Brahman,

Sri Aurobindo : You better ask the Brahman ! It is a knotty question to answer. Perhaps Brahman would have said : ".You are too argumentative to enter into me"! But it is like the "hen and egg" question.

Disciple : But according to the Advaita philosophy, all is in the Brahman, or one can say, God is in everything,

Sri Aurobindo : . That is a mental realisation and does no carry you much further.

Disciple : Can One say that the Truth-Consciousness is the same as the Jiva ?

Sri Aurobindo : On its highest plane the Jiva is the true Divine being. But it is on every plane. When you realise the Divine you know your true being and also you know God and his purpose in your Jiva. One can get into contact with it through the Central Being,

Disciple : I wanted to understand how belief is known

Page 132

different levels – mental, vital, and physical.

Sri Aurobindo : I will say something about belief and then you try to understand it by what it is not.

Mental faith believes in an idea. That is to say, Mind believes in what it thinks. The Vital believes in what it desires, and the Physical believes in what it senses.

Disciple : Does the transformation come first or the realisation of the Divine Consciousness ?

Sri Aurobindo : How can you have the transformation without the Higher Power ?

Disciple : Is it a process that demands faith in all the parts of our nature ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. It demands a mental faith which is the anticipation of the knowledge that is coming. Vital faith anticipates the effectuation that is coming. Faith in the physical anticipates what is going to be realised.

Disciple : Is there a difference between effectuation and realisation?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there is a difference. Effectuation is the work of force, realisation is a fact. This object lying here is a fact, it is not a force.

Page 133

< Prev.

Book

Next >

ABOUT

THEME

SIMILAR BOOKS

Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

Sadhana

Poems by Sri Aurobindo

Spiritual Significance of Flowers

Disciples / Seekers

Sri Aurobindo's Works

The Mother's Works

Satprem's Books

Works by Disciples / Seekers

Guidance

Let us co-create the website.