Talks with Sri Aurobindo

3 FEBRUARY 1939

NIRODBARAN: A sadhika has written a letter. She relates in it her experience: losing consciousness and the mind floating about, as it were, lightning strokes in the head, feeling some Presence. But she says that all these experiences give her a terrible fear, and she complains of bad health. The experiences have come to her at the very start of her practice of Yoga.

SRI AUROBINDO: You may tell her that what she calls losing consciousness is the going inward of consciousness, the state of Samadhi. It is extraordinary to get these experiences at the very outset. Usually one takes months and months to make the mind quiet—and she has done it at the first sitting! The lightning stroke is the very action of the Higher Power of the Yoga Shakti to make the Adahar fit for Yoga. All this shows that she has capacity and can do Yoga. But she must get rid of fear. Otherwise all experiences will stop. The fear indicates that though her inner mind is ready, her vital and physical beings are not—the one is full of fear and the other is suffering from bad health, as she says. A conflict is produced in her, which is not desirable. It may be better not to take up Yoga seriously until she has restored her health. But the most important thing is to get rid of fear.

NIRODBARAN: But how is one to get rid of it?

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the difficulty many complain of. When one takes up Yoga, all sorts of experiences come which are beyond the ordinary consciousness. And if one fears, Yoga is impossible. It has to be got rid of by the mind, by a psychological training and by will-power. Any human being worth the name has a will, and this will has to be exercised or developed. She can ask the protection of the Divine, lay herself in the hands of the Divine. As Vivekananda very insistently said, "Abhi". The Yogi has no fear.

I don't know whether I have told you of an experience of mine. After my meeting with Lele, I was once meditating at Calcutta felt a tremendous calm and then it seemed as if my breath would stop. A silly fear or rather an apprehension caught hold of me and said, "If my breath stops, how shall I live?" At once the experience ceased and never came back.

There are all sorts of experiences. What, for instance, would you do if you felt your head being drilled as if a nail were being thrust in? One feels also the splitting of the head in two or the bursting of.

NIRODBARAN: Why can't the experiences come in quietly?

SRI AUROBINDO: They do come in quietly but then you make a row. If your physical body or head were being split, you could object; but you ought to know by now that all these Yogic experiences are in the subtle body.

NIRODBARAN: I also once or twice had such a fear as the lady speaks of—the fear of a Presence. As soon as I sat to meditate before going to bed at about midnight, I felt everything so still and as if there were some Presence. That frightened me.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Did you think it was the Devil that brought in the stillness? But the Devil usually makes a commotion. Two things are necessary in Yoga: one is to get rid of fear and the other to know the ordinary symbols. (Addressing Purani) You know W. Once in meditation he saw golden gods coming down and telling him, "We will cut up your body and make it new." He cried out, "Never! Never!" He thought his physical body will going to be cut up. But the symbolism is quite clear. It means that the old things in W's nature were to be thrown away and new things brought in.

PURANI: I was surprised to hear that later he turned to jainism,

SRI AUROBINDO: Well, such changes often happen. In one's vital and physical nature there remains a stamp of one's ancestral religion and it comes out after some time. The Christians usually turn towards Roman Catholicism. A Frenchman—I forget his name—tried all sorts of things, European mysticism, Tibetan occultism, etc., and came into touch with Pavitra. Pavitra wrote to him, saying that these things wouldn't go with Yoga. The man broke the contact and turned towards Catholicism.

He wrote a book, stealing passages from Pavitra's letters and using them in support of Catholicism. It was this that disgusted Pavitra.

My grandfather started by being a Brahmo and ended by writing a book on Hinduism and proclaiming it the best religion. Devendranath Tagore became rather anxious and feared he might run into an excess of zeal.

After this the talk turned to politics and the work of the Leftists.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Leftists will probably pass laws abolishing the Zamindars and the capitalists and spoil all the work done by the Ministers. They will try to introduce social legislation and that will force the Governors to use their powers. Or the Leftists may keep out of the assemblies. It would be foolish to throw away the power given. I wrote before I left politics that if you get real power, take it and fight for more, like De Valera in Ireland. De Valera took what was given and grabbed for more. In the present international situation, when the Government wants to come to a compromise with the Congress you should accept what they give. Accept the Federation and fight against it afterwards.

NIRODBARAN: That is also X's opinion, but he says that now is the time to press for independence.

SRI AUROBINDO: That would be all right if the country were prepared for revolution, so that even if X and a few others were hanged, the movement would go on and ultimately the government would yield as in Ireland. There the people fighting against the Government risked their lives. If one is not prepared for that, one has to proceed in subtler ways. At present what X demands is impossible to get. It will only set the Government against you and they will try to crush the movement.

PURANI: But if we work this provincial programme and prepare the country and at the same time press the Princely States to give rights to the people, then we might get what we want without all that revolution.

SRI AUROBINDO: Exactly. It is a very clever drive to bring in the States question and if it can be carried through, the Federation with the Princes will break down and then only the Muslim question will remain.

(After a long pause) The British people have one weakness. They can't go on with brutal methods of repression for a long time. They have their prestige to keep up before the world and they want popular support. So in the end they come to a compromise. France also comes to a compromise but takes a longer time. Some other nations won't hesitate to go to the extreme limit. In Palestine the British Government almost succeeded. in. crushing the terrorists. If they had persisted they could have put Nashishibi against the Mufti and ruled the Arabs by the Arabs. But they could not go on and have now called the Palestine Conference. If the Mufti is clever he will be able to get a good deal.

In Ireland also the British came to a compromise. Even Conservatives turned round. France gave in in Syria but Syrians had to fight for it after the last war. In Tunisia they have clapped the Destourians in prison, but if the nationalists keep it up, France will give in.

PURANI: Roosevelt's speech seems to have been a declaration for democracy. In that case the three powers combined may stem the tide of the dictators.

NIRODBARAN: Now Hitler will think twice before he tries to do anything.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, if he is capable of thinking. His voice may ask him to push on. Mussolini may think twice, he is too Hitlerised. But then Hitler may say to him, "I have given you a chance for colonies. If you don't take it, I will go to the Ukraine." Mussolini may not like that. But Hitler may not go to war. During the Czech crisis it was by mere bluff that he succeeded. He knew from private sources that England and France wouldn't fight.

PURANI: Roosevelt has promised France armaments America is selling aeroplanes, etc. That means they may come to her help in case she is attacked.

SRI AUROBINDO: But it is doubtful if Roosevelt can carry the nation with him. America has increased her armaments for her own defence. But if they are exported the American people think that it will involve them in a war. At any rate his speech come as a great blow to both Germany and Italy. Chamberlain may think of supporting France now. A remarkable man, Roosevelt, very bold and ready to experiment and take risks. It is the old Roosevelt blood. Only, the first Roosevelt was brutally Fascist. This one is more refined.

PURANI: Jean Herbert says there may not be any war after all.

SRI AUROBINDO: If the British and French leaders go on yielding to the demands of the dictators, there may not be any war. Perhaps the British may say to Germany, "We shall supply you with raw materials, you can come and settle comfortably here.

The topic of corruption in public life came up. Somebody said that in most countries the people in political power confer favours on their own supporters and are open to bribes.

SRI AUROBINDO: You will never find such corruption in England. Public life there is honest and sincere. Englishmen may tell lies and break their promises but bribery and appropriation of money hardly exist in their public or political administration. As they say "These things are not done." If a political leader does them, he is finished for life. Thomas, you know, is wiped out. The English judges make no distinction between a rich criminal and a poor one.