Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

17^th January, 1939

Photographs of Harnath (Pagal) and Kusum Devi were shown to Sri Aurobindo. A declaration from Matushri

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Kusum Haranath – that she was the Supreme Power and that Harnath was one of her forms, was read.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the Tantric doctrine.

Disciple : But Harnath was a Vaishnava.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but the doctrine she has proclaimed is not Vaishnava doctrine, it is Tantric.

Disciple : Is it true?

Sri Aurobindo : In principle it is true; for the Supreme Shakti is the Divine Consciousness and all the gods are from her. It is she who gives out the gods – Shiva and others. It is said that even Shiva cannot act unless she gives him power to act.

Disciple : Harnath had his decisive spiritual experience in Kashmir where, it is related, Gauranga came to him and gave him the "mission". But his later disciples regard him equal to Gauranga.

Disciple : But where is the difficulty? If the consciousness is ultimately and essentially divine, why should not Gauranga and Harnath be one in consciousness?

Disciple : They want to prove him to be as great as Chaitanya.

Sri Aurobindo : Oh, there is competition between the two Avatars? Did Harnath proclaim himself as the Avatar?

Disciple : No, but he behaved like one. There are cases of very rapid conversions in case of people who have met him.

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Sri Aurobindo : I have found that Vaishnava Bhakti – devotional path – makes for very strong and rapid progress.

Disciple : There is a line of Sadhus in Gujarat, who practice the worship of the Impersonal God.

Sri Aurobindo : Worship of the Impersonal God?

Disciple : They do not have any personal God, but they worship One who is everywhere, beyond personality. Kabir and some other Saints believe in this. Even when they take a particular Name of God, they mean by it something more than the name. They will say "Rama" but they believe in various aspects of Rama.

Ek Rama Dashratha ghara Jaye, ek Rama, ghat ghat me

Ek Ramaka submen pasara ek Rama suban te nyara.

Disciple : Does "Nyara" mean the Transcendent?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, the Absolute, the Supreme.

Disciple : The couplet says : one Rama is born in Dashratha's house and is therefore subject to change; perhaps Kshara, One Rama is present in every heart and one that is all-pervading and therefore universal and one Rama is beyond all.

Sri Aurobindo : That seems to be the same thing as Gita's idea of Vasudeva that is in all and Vasudeva that is the Supreme Absolute – both are the same. I have seen instances in intense Gyana – knowledge – and intense Bhakti (devotion). Devotion of the Impersonal Divine may not be powerful for change; it tends to be more etherialised and the knowledge that enters into it makes devotion less intense or rapid.

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Disciple : We have heard that you received guidance from Sri Krishna in your Sadhana : was it from Sri Krishna of the Bindravan or of Kurukshetra?

Sri Aurobindo : I should think, it was of Kurukshetra Krishna.

Disciple : These distinctions between various personalities of Krishna, one of Bindravana and others are of later growth in Vaishnavism.

Sri Aurobindo : They regard Bala Gopal as the Delight aspect or the Delight-Consciousness; but there are older schools of Vaishnavism that regard Krishna as an Avatar of Vishnu.

Disciple : Krishna of Kurukshetra is; I suppose, one who gave the Gita.

Sri Aurobindo : One who spoke the Gita is the Vishnu aspect.

Disciple : Arjuna could not bear his sight and had to ask him to resume his human form.

Sri Aurobindo : In the Vishnu Purana all the aspects of Vishnu are nicely described. It is one of the Puranas I have read through carefully. I wonder how it has escaped general notice because it is magnificent poetry.

There is a humourous passage in it, where a disciple asks the Guru whether the king is on the elephant or the elephant on the king (Laughter).

Disciple : The king must be Rammurthy if the elephant was to be on him.

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Sri Aurobindo : Then the Guru jumps over the shoulders of the disciple and asks him whether he is on the disciple's back or the disciple on the Guru's back (Laughter) Then there is a very fine description of Jada Bharata.

Disciple : Is it true? Did Jada Bharata exist?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't know. But it sounds very real in the Purana, where it is placed.

It is also the most anti-Buddhist Purana.

Disciple : Then it must have been written late.

Disciple : Buddha was born about 500 B. C.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not so early as that; all the puranas are posterior to Buddhism. They are a part of the Brahminical revival which came as a reaction against Buddhism in the Gupta period.

Disciple : The Puranas are even the earliest, supposed to have been written about the 3rd or the 4th century A. D.

Sri Aurobindo : Most probably. In the Vishnu Purana Buddha is regarded as one of the Avatars of Vishnu who came to deceive the Asuras. He is not referred to by name but is called "Maya-moha". Reference to Budha is very clear; it repeats "Budyaswa! Budhyaswa." It is a fine work.

Disciple : It is said that the Tantras are derived from the Vedas.

Disciple : There is nothing in the Veda to justify their claim except one solitary Sukta, called the Vak; Ambhrani

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It is a Valkhilya. There Ambhrani speaks of herself as the creatrix of the Gods. Of course one can take Aditi, the Infinite divine consciousness as the root of Tantra if one likes.

Sri Aurobindo : The principle of Tantra may be as old as the Veda but the known Tantras are later.

Disciple : The Vedas are considered the highest authority in India, so everything in India wants to peg itself on to the Vedas – not only Tantra; but art, dancing etc.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't understand this passion for antiquity. What does it matter when a thing took place; Truth is truth whenever it may be found.

Disciple : But the Vedas are considered eternal.

Sri Aurobindo : They are eternal because the source of their inspiration is eternal.

Disciple : Some one has said that the eternal Veda is in everybody's heart.

Disciple : It is Sri Aurobindo who has said that in his 'Synthesis of Yoga.' You are quoting him to himself! (laughter )

Sri Aurobindo : The Upanishads came after the Vedas and they put in more plain language the same truth that was in the Veda. In the Veda the language is symbolic.

But the Upanishads are equally great. Even in the Veda there are passages which clearly show that the Vedantic Truth is contained in the Veda. But it is surprising that the readers of the Veda miss those

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passages. For instance, the Veda says – "Riten ritam apihitam", and then "it is That one" that is the source. It is clear that it refers to the Vedantic truth of the One. Similarly, the Upanishads speak of the Vedic symbols. The Ishopanishad speaks of the Vedic gods Sun – Surya and Agni, but you can see that the significance there is symbolic.

Veda, Upanishad, Gita all are equally great.

Disciple : The Europeans thought that it was not possible to believe that the Vedic Rishis were so advanced – specially in those primitive times.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, they are so satisfied when they found the historical interpretation that they did not care for many obvious indications. But you must admit that the interpretation turning Vedic Gods to gases is magnificently ingenious.

Disciple : Was it not Paramashiva Aiyar, a Mysorian who showed that remarkable ingenuity?

Sri Aurobindo : I think that is the man.

Disciple : He is trying to prove in his book on the Veda that the Veda shows the conditions of earth in the glacial period and then indicates its geological evolution. I gave him up when I came upon his explanation of "parame Vyoman" meaning "trough" and "crest" of the ocean waves.

Many riks of Dirghatamas are untranslated even to-day in spite of all ingenious theories and interpretations.

Sri Aurobindo : You can't translate them or understand them unless you have the key to the symbolism.

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