Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

29th December, 1938

To-day a question of a doctor (disciple) was conveyed by one of the disciples.

Disciple : What is the connection between the causal body and the psychic being?

Sri Aurobindo : The psychic being is what is called Chaitya Purusha in the heart, while the Causal body is at present Superconscious. They are not the same.

Disciple : It is the Superconscious existence that later on is called "Self" in Vedanta. According to some people Raman Maharshi has realized the Self.

Sri Aurobindo : From what Brunton (Paul) has written it does not seem so. He speaks of the "voice in the heart" that would mean the Psychic Being.

At this point Mother came and asked : "What have you been speaking about?"

Sri Aurobindo : "X" has asked a question which does not hang together.

Then he repeated the question.

Disciple : I have heard about Raman Maharshi's experience from a direct disciple of his : "One day the heart centre opened and I began to hear "I", "I" and everywhere I saw this "I".

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Disciple : Different spiritual persons say different things. How to find out which is the highest? Our choice is not necessarily that of the highest.

Mother : Each one goes to the limit of his consciousness. I have met many persons in Europe, India and Japan practicing yoga under different masters. Each claimed that his realization was the highest, he was quite sure about it and also quite satisfied with his condition, and yet each one was standing at a different place in consciousness and saying that he has attained the highest.

Disciple : But one can know what they mean by some criterion.

Mother : By what criterion? If you ask them they say "it is something wonderful but can't be described by the mind." I was with Tagore in Japan. He claimed to have reached the peace of Nirvana and he was beaming with joy. I thought : "here is a man who claims to have got the peace and reached Nirvana. Let us see." I asked him to meditate with me and I followed him in meditation and found that he had reached just behind the vital and the mind : a sort of emptiness. I waited and waited to see if he would go beyond; I wanted to follow him. But he would not go further. I found that he was supremely satisfied and believed that he had entered Nirvana.

Disciple : But there is a fundamental realization of some kind?

Mother : That is to say, there is a fundamental truth of consciousness. But that is not so easy to reach.

Disciple : How to choose a master, then? We must know whom to choose.

Disciple : How are you going to know with your mind where he has reached?

Disciple : Is not our choice decided by the psychic being in us?

Mother : That is another question. First you must realize about the limit of consciousness and the difference of the place where people stand.

The choice is mostly in answer to your need and it is governed by your inner necessity. Sometimes, the choice is made by instinct by which the animals find the right place for their food. Only, in the human being it acts from within. If you allow your mind to discuss and argue then the instinct becomes veiled. When you have made the choice the mind naturally wants to believe that it is the highest you have chosen. But that is subjective.

Disciple : If the choice is right one feels happiness and satisfaction.

Mother : Satisfaction? One can't depend upon feelings and sensations. for, very often they misguide. Satisfaction is quite a different thing. There are people who are not satisfied in the best conditions, while in the worst conditions some are quite satisfied.

Look at the people in the world around; they are very happy with their conditions. Again, there are people whose satisfaction depends upon their liver–a brutally materialistic state. Also there are people who suffer extremely and yet their inmost being knows that there is the path for reaching the goal.

Disciple : There are certain signs given by the Shashtras by which one can judge.

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Sri Aurobindo : What Shashtras? One can't believe in all that is said in the Shashtras.

Mother : Besides, that may be all right for Indians; what about the Europeans? You can't say that they have not realized any truth?

Then the Mother took her leave and went for meditation. There was a pause of silence for some time. Then Sri Aurobindo asked : "What are the Laxanas – signs – you spoke of?"

Disciple : They are common and found everywhere. They are given in the Gita : Equality, Love for others, even-mindedness etc.

Sri Aurobindo : They are, rather, conditions for realization. All experiences are true and have their place. But because one is true one can't say that the other is false. Truth is infinite. There are so many ways to come to the Truth. The wider you become the higher you go. The more you find, there is still more and more. For instance, Maharshi (Raman) has his experience of "I" but when I had the Nirvan-experience I could not think of an "I"; – however much I tried I could not think of any "I". The world simply got displaced. One can't speak of it as "I". It is either "He" or "That". That I call Laya. Realization of the Self is all right; Laya was a part of a realization which is much more comprehensive.

When I do not accept the Maya-Vada it is not that I have not realized the Truth (behind it) or, that I don't know "the One in All" and "All in the One",–but because I have other realizations which are equally strong and which can not be shut out. The Maharshi is right and everybody is also right.

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When the mind tries to understand these things, it takes up fragments and treats them as wholes and makes unreal distinctions. They speak of Nirguna as the fundamental (experience) and Saguna as derivative or secondary. But what does the Upanishad mean by "Ananta Nirguna" and "Ananta Saguna"? They can't be thought of as different. When you think of Impersonality as the fundamental Truth and Personality as something imposed upon it and therefore secondary, you cut across with your mind something which is beyond both. Or, is it not that Personality is the chief thing and Impersonality is only one side, or one condition of Personality? No. Personality and Impersonality are aspects of a thing which is indivisible. Shanker is right and so is Nimbarka. Only, when they state their Truth in mental terms there is a tremendous confusion. Shanker says "It is Anirvachaniya – indiscribable by  speech – and "All is One." Nimbarka says : There is Duality and Unity : while Madhava says : "Duality is true."

The Upanishads speak of "Him by knowing whom all is known." What does it mean? That Vignana  is not the fundamental realization of the One. It means the knowledge of the principles of the Divine Being; what Krishna (in the Gita) speaks of  "Tattvatah" One cannot know the complete Divine except in the Supermind. That is why Krishna said that one who knows him in the "true principles of his being" is rare, "Kashchit". The Upanishads also speak of the Brahman as Chatushpada "having four legs, or aspects". It does not merely state "All is the Brahman" and it is over. The realization of the Self is not all. There are many things beyond that. The Divine Guide within me urged me to proceed, adding experience after experience, reaching

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higher and higher, stopping at none as final, till I arrived at the glimpses of the Supermind. There I found the Truth indivisible and there everything takes its proper place. There, Nirguna and Saguna – Impersonality and Personality don't exist. They are all aspects of One Truth which is indivisible.

In the Overmind stage knowledge begins to rush in upon you from all sides and you see the objects from all points of view and each thing from all points. All of them tend to get related to each other and there the Cosmic Consciousness is not merely in its static aspect but also in its dynamic reality : it is the expression of something Above. When you become Cosmic even though you speak of your self as "I" it is not the "I," – the ego, the "I-ness" disappears and the mental, vital and the physical appear as representatives of that Consciousness. Ramakrishna speaks of that state as the form of ego left for action. When you reach the Supermind you become not only Cosmic but something beyond the Universe – Transcendental, and there is indivisibility of unity and individuality. There, the Cosmic and the Individual all co-exist.

The same principle works out in science. The scientists at one time reduced all multiplicity of elements to Ether and described it in the most contradictory terms. Now they have found the Electrons as the basis of Matter. By difference of position and number of electrons you get the whole multiplicity of objects. There also you find the One that is Many, and yet is not two different things. Both the One and the Many are true and through both you have to go to the Truth.

When you come to politics, democracy, plutocracy, monarchy etc. all have truth, even Hitler and Mussolini stand for some truth.

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This is a very big yoga, – one has to travel – I think "X" will not take all that trouble – (Sri Aurobindo said referring to a disciple.)

Disciple : Never, Sir. I have come here because I can't take so much trouble.

Sri Aurobindo : You are not called upon to do it. Even for me it would have been impossible if I had to do it myself; but at a certain stage heavens opened and the thing was done for me.

The topic seemed to have ended. But "X" prolonged by saying : my friend "K" asked Maharshi if attainment of immortality was possible. But the Maharshi would not say anything by way of reply. But "K" persisted then he said; "It is possible by Divine Grace."

Sri Aurobindo : That is hardly an answer. Everything is possible by Divine Grace. There are two things about immortality : one, the conquest of death. It does not however mean that one would never die. It means leaving the body at will. Second, it includes the power to change or renew the body. There is no sense in keeping the same body for years; that would be a terrible bondage. That is why death is necessary in order that one can take another body and have a fresh growth. You know Dasharath lived for sixty thousand years. He did not know what to do with such a long life and began at the end producing children! Have you read Shaw's "Back to Methuselah?" It shows how silly an intellectual can become. And what a ridiculous farce he has made of Joan of Arc? He speaks of her visions as projections of her own mental ideas and decisions. Shaw is all right when he speaks of England, Ireland and Society; but he can't do anything constructive. There he fails miserably.

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These intellectuals like Russell when they talk of something beyond their scope they cut such a poor figure  :  you can see what he writes about the "introvert." They can't tolerate emptiness or cessation of thought and breaking away from outside interests! If you ask them to stop their thoughts they refuse to accept it and at once come back from emptiness. And yet it is through emptiness one has to pass beyond.

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