Sri Aurobindo : conversations
THEME/S
VII
(A)
26-3-1924
Disciple : The Puranas state that the span of life is different in different cycles. Is it a fact ? For instance, Rama is said to have lived eleven thousand years.
Sri Aurobindo : That is nothing ! (Laughter)
Disciple : It seems so, for his father, Dasharatha, lived for eighty thousand years.
Sri Aurobindo : So Rama was short-lived ! (Laughter). But what about their statures ? There is a story about Revati. Her father wanted to get her married and wished to consult Brahma, the creator, about it. So he went to the Brahma-loka and he was entertained with a song by an Apsara. After the song was over Brahma asked him about the object of his visit. He asked about his daughter's marriage and suggested certain names. Brahma said all those people had already died ! While he was listening to the song some ten thousand human years had passed and all was changed ! The father asked Brahma what was to be done. He said : "Well, Krishna and Balaram, and others have gone down – to humanity – you may go and give your daughter to Balaram." So, Revati was married to Balaram. When she came to Balaram after marriage he looked up to her as she was very much taller
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than himself. He said to himself : "How am I to manage this ?" He then did one thing; he took his plough and applied it to her shoulder and then pressed down with great force till she was brought down to his size and then they lived happily ever after !
Disciple : But it appears Krishna lived for a hundred and eight years only.
Sri Aurobindo : Probably the poet could not exaggerate in his case as he is historically near us.
Disciple : The poet perhaps knew that we would read these things and so he wanted to be accurate !
Disciple : I want to know whether the incidents related by the poet about Krishna's life are psychic representations or do they present facts that occurred during his lifetime ?
Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by that ?
Disciple : For instance, the killing of the Asuras – the Titans.
Sri Aurobindo : From the reading of the description itself you can know whether the act of killing is a physical fact or not. You can't take everything physically. There is a mixture of facts, tradition and psychic experience as well as history.
Disciple : How did the poet get them ? Did he get them by psychic intuition or from the physical life only ?
Sri Aurobindo : You can't take these things so literally and scientifically. The poet was not writing history, he was only writing poetry. He may have got his materials from the psychic intuitive plane, and from his own imagination, or from the psycho-mental or any other plane.
Disciple : I have a question. The poet describes the form of Sri Krishna. Now, is it the description of his psychic body or his physical body – because we see that form of his in our own psychic vision even to-day. T
Sri Aurobindo : What on earth does it matter whether he
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lived on the physical plane or not ? If the thing is true pn the psychic and spiritual plane it is all that matters. As long as you find Krishna as a divine Power on the psychic, or on the spiritual plane nothing else matters. He is true for us. The physical is merely the shadow of the psychic.
Disciple : To-day our friend asked me again about the Christian and Hindu visions. He was at a loss to understand why, if Truth is one, men should get .different visions. All must get the same experience if the thing is true.
Sri Aurobindo : As if the world was so poor as not to be able to give different visions on the same plane.
Disciple : Whenever the Avatar – the incarnation – comes, does he not undergo a period of Sadhana to make it possible for humanity to attain a higher consciousness ?
Sri Aurobindo : What exactly do you mean ?
Disciple : In the Bhdgawata Krishna is represented as a Purna Avatar – as manifesting full knowledge, power and delight, even from his childhood. Had he done any Sadhana ?
Sri Aurobindo : The Bhagawata is a book of religion, it is not history. Even the Mahdbhdrata is not history. It is poetry, legend and tradition all woven into poetry, all arranged round certain facts.
But that apart, the question is : do all Avatars come to raise the consciousness of humanity ? Those that come to do that work practise sddhana.
Disciple : It seems Krishna had done Sadhana.
Sri Aurobindo : Yes, he seems to have done Sadhana with Ghora Rishi. But the Varaha incarnation does not seem to have done any Sadhana. [Laughter)
Disciple : Nor the Matsya – the Fish-Avatar ! Sri Aurobindo : And what do you mean by the Purna Avatar ?
Disciple : I mean complete .embodiment of the Truth.
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Sri Aurobindo : Of what Truth ?
Disciple : An Avatar embodying the Saccidānanda, – Divine knowledge, infinite power and delight etc.,– on the physical plane.
Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by "embodying on the physical plane" ?
Disciple : Bringing the infinite Ananda on the physical plane.
Sri Aurobindo : What was the sign that he embodied the divine Ananda ?
Disciple : Did any one in the past Supramentalise the body ?
Sri Aurobindo : What do you understand by "a Supramentalised body ?"
Disciple : I mean mastery over the physical laws.
Sri Aurobindo : The scientists have the mastery over the physical.
Disciple : No. I mean spiritual mastery.
Sri Aurobindo : For instance, Tailanga Swamy's remaining in water, would you call it mastery of the physical ? Power to work miracles, – does it not constitute the Supramentalised physical ?
Disciple : I want to know if this yoga has been tried before. Did anyone bring down the Truth to the material plane ?
Sri Aurobindo : Of course there is no evidence. If any one did it in the past we need not be doing it and struggling as we do. It is obvious it was not done in the past.
Disciple : Did no one try it ?
Sri Aurobindo : That way, nothing is done for which there has not been a previous trial and preparation ; whatever is done has been tried with partial success before. If anyone did it, it was lost by tradition and forgotten in the cycles of time.
Disciple : Is it not possible that the Truth may have come down and then receded ?
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Sri Aurobindo : If an Avatar came it was a promise. The Truth was not made a fact in Matter. I can say this that it may have been tried but it was never made dynamic factor in the world. The difficulty in bringing down the Truth is not so much in the upper physical layers but in gross Matter, in the most material plane.
The earth-law has to be changed and a new atmosphere is to be created. The question is not merely to have knowledge, power etc., but to bring it down, the whole difficulty is to make it flow down.
People have very simple ideas about this thing, but it is not so simple as it is thought. It is a very complex movement. There is the Truth above and when you go on increasing in knowledge you go on ascending higher and higher, but it does not descend, does not come down at once. It comes down only when everything is ready. If the Truth could be made once the law of the earth-plane then it would endure. It is difficult to make it flow down so long as there is a mixed movement.
Disciple : Do you think that the work will be done this time
Sri Aurobindo : You want me to prophesy ? Wait and see.
Disciple : I want to know it from you.
Sri Aurobindo : I know that it can be done, but I can't prophesy : I cannot say, "It will be done." But this I can say : "Something will be done this time."
There is a doubt somewhere in the mental being, some uncertainty. The whole thing is ready behind. If there had been the certainty on the mental plane the work would have been done. It was not done till now because probably the hostile forces were very strong. You do not know how strong they are, I alone know it, you have only a glimpse of it.
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24-4-1924
Disciple : Dr. Coué in his book of cure by auto-suggestion wants that people should use "imagination" and not "will" for auto-suggestion because he thinks that by using the will you exhaust yourself.
Sri Aurobindo : Yes, he holds that the will creates opposition but the same is the case with imagination. Whatever you do sets up forces in opposition in movement.
Disciple : To me the distinction he draws between imagination and will is not clear.
Sri Aurobindo : In the imagination you say, "I am all right" and go on repeating it while in using the will you say; "I must be all right" !
Disciple : One Indian wine merchant was photographed and he was found to emit blue light !
Sri Aurobindo : This kind of emission of light-waves from a human body is a proved fact. The scientists went and found the light waves but then they thought that they were hypnotised and so they tried the photographic plate and found the photo of a hand. These phenomena like the eye-less sight, or emission of light waves or cures by occult powers are mostly "psychic" phenomena. It is absurd to try to explain them away and still more absurd to doubt them.
Disciple : A missionary, it seems, has cured a blind man ; and St. Xavier at Goa still cures many people of their diseases.
Sri Aurobindo : That is a very common thing. In France at the Notre Dame several lame people were immediately cured. These cases can be seen by anybody who wants to be convinced about their existence. Only the forces, in such case, work very irregularly. Some people get cured absolutely, while others are not affected. A friend of the Mother, a lady, was lame and got cured at
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Notre Dame. These effects are due to certain “psychic” powers and there is no limit to their capacity.
There are cases where doctors treating their patients cure them by the use of "psychic" powers, though the men using the powers do not understand the process by their intellect.
The topic was changed as a disciple brought in news about the elections going on in Pondicherry.
Disciple : Mon. X has come here as a candidate for the seat of the Deputy.
Sri Aurobindo : The main duty of all these deputies seems to be the taking and giving of bribes. We have here a very fine object-lesson in democracy. If I had not come to Pondicherry, perhaps, I would not have lost all my faith in democracy.
Disciple : They are acting like the Fascists who also keep out all the opposition candidates and use force. But why do they beat and kill each other ?
Sri Aurobindo : It is democracy, don't you see that ! (Laughter)
Disciple : But why do they thrash the opposition ?
Sri Aurobindo : You have got a majority and so you thrash with the consent of the majority !
21-9-1925
(A letter from Rojoni and Roti).
Disciple : Is there any significance in Japan having earthquakes and fires? . .
Sri Aurobindo : There is no special significance ; these things have been there for a long time.
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Disciple : Why is Japan selected for these things ?
Sri Aurobindo : They have been there – the earthquakes etc. for twenty thousand years. They are not new. Japan is a country of wooden houses and a Japanese goes to sleep dressed so that he can jump out at the first sign of danger. The Japanese are accustomed to keep their most precious possessions at one place. So if there is fire or earthquake, he simply runs out with them and then builds the house over again.
They are accustomed to live dangerously. Only recently they have begun to introduce the American style and stone buildings have been constructed. But that has brought disastrous consequences. The whole city of Yokohama is practically destroyed.
Disciple : It is now a heap of ruins. But their population is increasing so rapidly that the loss of life due to earthquake may be nothing to them.
Sri Aurobindo : Formerly also there were such earthquakes but they were not so disastrous. Besides, electricity and waterworks and other such installations add to the danger. They have been trying to use reinforced concrete and they believe it may serve the purpose. The Japanese have reduced their infant mortality to the minimum. Moreover, they are a very hygienic people – they are the cleanest people in the world.
Disciple : Even in India now there is an awakening of the sanitary sense.
Sri Aurobindo : Where ?
Disciple : In Ahmedabad the Sanitary Committee took the Municipal staff and some volunteers and have cleaned up one of the biggest, narrowest and most thickly populated localities – Mandwi. It took them more than three days. At the end lectures were given about the necessity and means of keeping the locality clean. The proposal is to clear the whole city gradually.
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Disciple : When the Sanitary Committee has gone to one end of the city it may find that the other end it has left has become again as filthy as it was.
Disciple : If public opinion is cultivated and the sanitary consciousness awakened then after such efforts legislation may be passed to maintain cleanliness.
Sri Aurobindo : Oh yes, these things require vital energy. In a nation like ours which has got vital depression such an effort is necessary and good as it brings it out from the Tamas – inertia – into which it has fallen.
Disciple : Do you mean that every man has to get rid of the vital depression ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes. If you are subject to vital depression you will be unable to do a work of the physical plane with an alert mind for a long time.
Disciple : X has been learning music.
Sri Aurobindo : That is not what I mean by getting rid of vital depression. I mean doing something on the physical plane, not necessarily physical work alone – regularly at the same time without fail with an alert mind, and feeling no fatigue or mental apathy and seeing that it is done well without any mistake or carelessness.
Disciple : Suppose one were to do such work mechanically ?
Sri Aurobindo : That is not what is wanted. One must be alert in the mind. The Europeans succeed in their work because they have that habit of alert mind.
Disciple : I showed X how to prepare Halwa and do it every day in ten minutes. Then he began to argue that he was not accustomed to do it ! And then to say that it was difficult to do it every day ! But the joke is that at last he told me : "You see, it is not our work !" (Laughter)
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Sri Aurobindo : There, you see !
6-10-1925
Sri Aurobindo : (turning to a disciple) I spoke to the Mother about the theory that thumb lines do undergo change. She confirms the belief of our palmists – the sāmudriks – that the rekhās – lines – on the palm change. There are several judicial errors – well-known – in which thumb-impressions have been proved false.
There was the famous case of an army-man who was charged with having accepted bribes from the Germans. The case was tried by various courts and at last the man was acquitted. When the prosecution produced the thumb-impression, the judge refused to give any importance to it saying it was a scrap of paper. There was a discussion in the French Assembly about the thumb-impression to be introduced for foreigners in France. The counter proposal was that as it was humiliating they ought not to introduce it, as they would not want to give it themselves.
4-6-1926
Disciple : Some time back you said that the symbolism of the Vedas was to some extent conventional e.g. typifying "light of the Truth" as the "cow". The same may be said of Buddhist symbolism and that of ancient Egypt.
Is there not a symbolism which could be said to be universal, i.e. having a reality independent of the mental significance of words and images ?
Sri Aurobindo : Have you any idea of such a symbolism?
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Disciple : If at all such a symbolism exists it ought to be based on true correspondence between the planes of consciousness, and the symbols themselves must be universal. The numbers are said to form such a symbolism ; for, though mental, they have correspondence on each plane of being, e.g. 2 corresponds to the ends of polarity – sex – male and female, positive and negative, attraction and repulsion, good and evil etc. 4 corresponds to will and creative action ; 7 is said to represent individual consciousness contacting the universe, unfolding its powers ; 8 is related to Karma ; 9 is related to life and cyclic evolution .
Has this idea of symbolism of numbers any true foundation ? Or, in other words, do there exist realities which are true symbols ? Numbers seem to have special properties seemingly self-existent, absolute and changeless, ruling the whole manifestation. Perhaps it is this that made Pythagoras and many other mystics see in numbers the highest abstract images of the laws of being ?
Sri Aurobindo : What is your idea of the difference between the symbol and Reality ?
Disciple : A symbol is a significant form of a plane of being which presents to the human mind Reality belonging to another plane e.g. the flag of a nation.
Sri Aurobindo : In a sense everything here, on this earth-plane is symbolic of something that is beyond the physical plane. Our bodies, the vital being, the mental being are all a symbol – they are a whole range of symbols.
There are authentic symbols like the Vedic "cow" which means "Light" and the quadruped of that name. It was something precious to the Aryan people and it was taken away by the robbers. The Rishis gave life to this symbol; form was given by their mind, and it became an experience.
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There are people who say "cow" should not mean "Light". But what can "herds of the Sun" mean? It can only mean "Rays of solar light". There are certain life-symbols : e.g. "Mountain" stands for "ascent", going high up. "Bridge" or "crossing of rivers" is also a symbol from life-surroundings.
Then there are certain symbols that have an inherent appositeness of their own : for instance, Akasha – sky stands for the Eternal Brahman. In any nationality or any culture, "Sky" always indicates the Infinite. "Sun" always stands for the Supramental Light – it is the Sun of knowledge.
Then there are mental symbols; once fixed they become active on their own plane, e.g. "OM", – Numbers, alphabets, geometrical figures – these have their own interpretations, e.g., the square always indicates to me the Supermind : it is a perfect shape.
Disciple : How did you know that the square is the symbol of the Supermind ?
Sri Aurobindo : It might have been already found on the mental plane by somebody or might have come into my mind by some force. I did not pursue its meaning; it indicated to me the Supermind and I was satisfied.
The triangle indicates the world formed by the three lower powers. Another triangle placed with, its apex opposite indicates the three higher plane of being. When the two triangles are superimposed upon each other then a new symbol is found. The ancients indulged in these speculations.
It is also possible that the same reality may seek expression through different symbols, and if you go behind you find it is the same thing which is Infinite and unlimited by the symbol.
Disciple : What do you think of the Tantric sounds "Hring" "Kling" etc. ?
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Sri Aurobindo : They are not mere sound, there must be some force behind them. The same is true about Mantra Siddhi : three states are represented by "OM" and they can act differently in different men,
Disciple : The numbers being universal, why can't they be universal symbols ?
Sri Aurobindo : They are absolute to the human mind only; they are essential for our way of perceiving. There may be another plane of consciousness where they may not be so absolute, and where "one" may be at the same time "two".
Numbers are the way of perceiving certain unalterable facts on the physical plane. It means that the mind can cut up the Infinite, take one and one and one and then say about each : "this is one". Physically, there are certain unalterable laws, e.g., going through the door is not possible without opening it, but the contrary of it may exist elsewhere.
Disciple : In a new geometry there are different postulates and axioms – not the same that we find in ordinary geometry.
Disciple : Nowadays all can be included in geometry. There exist Imaginary Numbers : e.g., the square root of minus 1. It is an imaginary number which the mind cannot conceive and represent in some substance, but yet it indicates some reality.
Disciple : Are they not contradictory ?
Disciple : Not at all; they are well calculated and very logical.
Sri Aurobindo : What is minus 1 ? It is a number which goes beyond our gamut like sound-waves which we can't hear yet exist all the same. Our range deals with the positive numbers while the negative ones are contrary to it. It does not mean they don't exist. They can even make themselves known to the mind.
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(To a Disciple) Do you feel that you are one being ? And yet are you quite sure that there is no other personality in you ? So you feel you are one body but at the same time multiple personalities are there in you. There are positive personalities in you, but there may be negative personalities also ! You have then a negative number ! There is an interpenetration of one by another and a sort of fluidity which makes this possible. But if it was so on the physical plane then one could not deal with physical realities.
8-6-1926
Disciple : It is said that the life of man is ruled by the stars – is this a kind of symbolism or is it true ?
Sri Aurobindo : It is not completely true that man's life is governed by the stars. The conjunctions of the stars are an indication of the forces, especially vital and physical forces. They exert a certain influence on man and the course of his life. It was, perhaps, the Chaldean occultists who found the inner basis of these calculations. Now, only tradition remains. Astrology is not yet an exact science ; it is not purely mental. It is the man whose mind can touch the forces that are behind the stars who can make correct predictions. What is important for man is the inner life and on that the stars have little influence.
18-6-1926
Disciple : There are two ways of foretelling the future : the astrological calculations which are based upon the
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general lines of character and happenings indicated by the stars, another is that of clairvoyance in which the image of the future event, correct even to the minutest detail, is brought before the vision. How does this happen ?
Sri Aurobindo : These clairvoyants are awake on the physical plane and because they are passive these images which are already there in the subtle impose themselves upon their vision ; of course, you .must have this vision in order to know the future.
Disciple : Can the events, thus foreseen, be averted ? Generally, there is something always missing in the vision which does not allow men to escape it, e.g., the, place or the time of the event is not indicated etc. But there are some instances in which the foreknowledge of the event has allowed the man to change the result foreseen.
Sri Aurobindo : There is a vital image which is a possibility and it can be prevented ; secondly there is the image of the event on the subtle physical plane which, if it is fixed, can't be avoided.
Disciple : Are there events absolutely fixed which cannot be changed ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there are. If you want to change then you have to go to a plane which is higher than the one where these things are decided and that is not always easy.
There are three kinds of movements which one has to distinguish in seeing the future. First of all there is the result of the actualities : it is a very narrow field and things there are fixed and it is generally the very near future. Secondly, there is a play of potentialities in which certain forces are struggling and you can see the force which is most likely to succeed. But generally it is that force which represents the higher
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decision on that plane. But you can't be always sure that it will succeed unless you know definitely that it represents the highest decision – the Truth. Thirdly there is a higher plane where important decisions are made. For that movement you have to go very high. It is difficult to distinguish between these three and most of the clairvoyants make a confusion.
Disciple : There are cases where most minute details have been known by clairvoyance.
Sri Aurobindo : One has to be passive and often the decision to be taken, or the happening that is going to take place, forces itself upon one.
Disciple : Is seeing the past the same faculty as seeing the future ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes. But it is much easier to see the past. The impression and memory are left on so many things.
Disciple : Is it the same thing that A.E. speaks of as the "earth-memory" in one of his books.
Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by the memory of the earth ?
Disciple : All things leave their impression in the world and they are all stored up in earth-consciousness. When A.E. was travelling in Egypt he saw much of the history of Egypt in the subtle.
Sri Aurobindo : That is something quite different from earth-memory.
Disciple : There is a being or a Spirit behind every place, I believe ; for instance, is there no conscious being behind Pondicherry ?
Sri Aurobindo : Do you mean nagar devatā, the presiding deity of the town ?
Disciple : Something like that.
Sri Aurobindo : It is true that there are beings behind collective units, like the nations. There is what you may call the national devata or National Shakti.
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Disciple : Is there such a being behind India ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes.
Disciple : Is it possible to know it, to come in contact with it ?
Disciple : Is it possible to know the future of the nation by coming in contact with this being ?
Sri Aurobindo : I think so. But I don't think the future is known that way.
Disciple : Does it shape the future of the nation ?
Sri Aurobindo : It has a part to play in it. It controls some of the forces that act.
Disciple : Is this being something more than the aggregate consciousness ?
Sri Aurobindo : It has the aggregate consciousness and it has an individualised consciousness of its own. It is not the determining deity or the adhisthāta devatā in the sense that it entirely shapes the future, but it, in a way, represents the racial – the national-soul.
Disciple : Is there any such thing as the evil genius of a nation ?
Sri Aurobindo : This idea is akin to the Christian conception of good and evil always counterbalancing each other and it corresponds to the old idea of good and evil Spirits. But there is no such rule that wherever there is a good Spirit there must be the evil Spirit.
28-6-1926
The subject was miracles or acts that appear extra-ordinary in the life of great spiritual persons. Raman Maharshi, the great Yogi of Tiruvannamalai, was once beaten severely by robbers. They thought that he had a lot of money hidden somewhere but as they failed to locate it they caught him and beat him. At last they found only
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utensils, which they started taking. Raman Maharshi told them, "But why don't you take some food which is ready, and then take the utensils ?" They did not listen to him and beat him. He fell into Samadhi and his limbs were swollen with the beating. The police caught the burglars and brought them before Raman Maharshi for identification, but he refused to identify them.
Disciple : There is a story about Tailanga Swami, that once he was beaten by robbers and the marks of the beating were found on the body of the son of a robber.
Disciple : No. That version is not correct. The story is that a prince was coming to take a bath in the Ganges with his two queens and so a portion of the road leading to the bathing-ghat was screened off to conduct the Ranis to the river in purdāh – under veil. When they were bathing, Tailanga Swami, who used to remain in the Ganges submerged for days together, suddenly appeared on the surface of water and the King whipped him mercilessly. When he went he found that marks of the beating on his son's body.
Disciple : Ramakrishna also had a similar experience when the bullock that was being driven by the gardener was whipped in spite Ramakrishna's protest; the marks of the whip were reproduced on Ramakrishna's body
Disciple : The story in the Ramakrishna Kathamrita is different. It refers to two fishermen who were quarrelling. One of them gave a slap to the other on the back and Ramakrishna who was on the bank got the mark of the slap on his body.
Sri Aurobindo : All these stories are there, the question is how many of them are true.
Disciple : But apart from their being true or not, are they possible ?
SriAurobindo : I have already told you "anything is possible",
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because the power of self-suggestion is practically unlimited. There is the instance of St. Francis, of Assisi on whose body the marks of the crucifixion were reproduced merely by the power of auto-suggestion. Well; if you have a stronger power than that, you can immediately feel any marks on your body. Ramakrishna himself seems to have said that when he was doing Hanuman Sadhana, he grew a little tail.
Disciple : He also said that when he was living in sakhi-bhāva, the Radha attitude, he developed feminine characteristics on his body
Disciple : But it is also said that you had the power of raising the body from the ground !
Sri Aurobindo : Who told you ?
Disciple : They say that when you were in jail and also at Pondicherry when you used to meditate your body used to be lifted from the ground.
Sri Aurobindo : Nonsense. And in X's writings perhaps I am represented as walking above the ground. So you see how legends gather ?
Disciple : But you yourself told me that it is true and not nonsense. I asked you one day whether it was possible to raise the body from the ground. You said it was and so I thought it was true in your case.
Sri Aurobindo : There you are ! If I say something is possible does it follow that it is actually done ; for example, if I say it is possible to attain physical immortality, does it mean that I have achieved it ? Not at all.
Disciple : But then is there no basis at all for this widely held report ? I have heard it from reliable men.
Disciple : Those who start legends generally say they heard it from a reliable source.
Disciple : But when you were in jail some part of your body was raised in a peculiar fashion. Is that not true ?
Sri Aurobindo : That was once in jail, I was then having a
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very intense Sadhana on the vital plane and I was concentrated. I had a questioning mood, whether such things as the Siddhi of utthapana – levitation – were possible. Then suddenly I found myself raised up in such a way I could not have done it myself with muscular exertion : only one part of the body was slightly in contact with the ground and the rest was raised up against the wall and I know I could not have held my body like that normally even if I had wanted to. I also found that the body remained suspended like that without any exertion on my part. That is the only thing that happened. In jail there were many such extraordinary and, one may say, abnormal, experiences. As I was doing the Sadhana on the vital plane I think the power might have come from there. All these experiences passed away and did not repeat themselves.
Disciple : Moti Babu has related that when you were five years old you got a vision of a great light at Darjeeling and you became unconscious.
Sri Aurobindo : And then, what happened further ? (After some time) All that is a legend. I told him something because he was constantly asking me about my childhood. I had no such experience of light when I was a child. My uncle told me that I was very bright, but I have no recollection of those days and if you want the truth it was not light but darkness that I saw at Darjeeling. I was lying down one day when I saw suddenly a great darkness rushing into me and enveloping me and the whole of the universe. What I told Moti Babu was that after that I had a great Tamas – darkness – always hanging on to me all along my stay in England. I believe that darkness had something to do with the Tamas that came upon me. It left me only when I was coming back to India,
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If people were to know all the truth about my life they would never believe that such a man could come to anything.
Disciple : Moti Babu related to me about your conversion to Christianity – how one day when you did no attend Church the priest asked you about it next day and then you did not make any reply but simply wept.
Sri Aurobindo : What is all this legend ? I never became a Christian and never used to go to Church. Who has built up this fantastic story ?
Disciple : Moti Babu was telling us.
Sri Aurobindo : I told him something quite different and the manuscript which he sent here did not contain any account of the light I saw when I was five !
The only thing that happened was there was once a meeting of non-Conformist priests at Camberland when we were staying in England. The old lady in whose house we were living took me there. In such meeting after the prayers are over all disperse and devout people generally remain a little longer afterwards and it is at that time that conversions are made.
I was feeling completely bored. Then a priest approached me and put me some questions. I did not give any reply. Then they all shouted out, "He is saved, he is saved," and began to pray for me and offer thanks to God ! I did not know anything. Then the priest came to me and asked me to pray. I was never in the habit of praying but somehow I did it in the manner in which children recite their prayers before sleep, in order to keep up an appearance. That was the only thing. But I did not use to attend Church. I was then about ten years. The old lady's son, Mr. Drewett never used to meddle in these affairs because he was a man of common sense. But he went away to Australia and we came to India.
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When we were staying in London this old lady used to have daily family prayers and reading of some passage from the Bible. One day Mano Mohan said something about Moses which made her wild. She said she did not want to live under the same roof with unbelievers, and went to live somewhere else. I felt infinitely relieved and grateful to Mano Mohan. We were then entering upon the agnostic stage in our development.
I was a great coward virtually and I was weak physically and could not do anything. Only my will was bright. Nobody could have imagined that I could face the gallows or carry on a revolutionary movement. In my case it was all human imperfection with which I had to start and feel all the difficulties before embodying the divine Consciousness.
Disciple : Moti Babu told us that you caught the revolutionary spirit from Shelley's Revolt of Islam.
Sri Aurobindo : That is not quite true. The Revolt of Islam was a great favourite with me even when I was quite young and I used to read it again and again – of course, without understanding everything. Evidently it appealed to some part of the being. There was no other effect of reading it except this that I had a thought that I would dedicate my life to a similar World-change and take part in it.
(After a pause)
No, I had no extraordinary spiritual experience in my early life.
I remember only three experiences. One was the Darjeeling experience. And the second came upon me at the age of twelve or thirteen. I was extremely selfish and then something came upon me and I felt I ought to give up selfishness and I tried in my own way – of course, imperfectly – to put it into practice. But
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that was a sort of turning-point in my inner life. The last came just before I left England. It was the mental rather than the spiritual experience of the Atman. I felt the One only as true ; it was an experience absolutely Shankarite in its sense. It lasted only for a short time.
Disciple : Is it a fact that you came away straight to Chandernagore from the Dharma office ? And that the C.I.D. by God's grace were not there ?
Sri Aurobindo : I was at the Karmayogin office and we came to know about the search that was going to be made evidently with the object of arresting me. There were some people there and Ramchandra Majumdar was there – preparing to give fight to the police – and so many ideas were flying about when suddenly I heard a voice from above saying, "No, go to Chandernagore."
After coming out from Jail I used to hear voices and in those days I used to obey them without questioning. So I told my friends that I would go to French India and then the arrangement was made. The C.I.D., I don't know whether by God's grace or the prostitutes' grace, were not there.
Disciple : Then about coming to Pondicherry also you heard a voice ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes. It is quite true.
30-7-1926
Disciple : Is there any truth in the belief that the three times prescribed for the sandhya are more favourable for meditation ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes, they are. These transitional times – especially the evening times – are times when you
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are most likely to be attacked by the hostile powers.
Disciple : Is there no time which gives one the greatest immunity from these attacks ?
Sri Aurobindo : I don't think there is any such time ; if you are open to them you can be always attacked and more so at these sandhyas – transitional times.
Disciple : There is an idea that the bright half of the lunar month is more favourable to Sadhana than the dark half.
Sri Aurobindo : There is some truth in it, I think
Disciple : Is there any truth in the omens in which men believe ?
Sri Aurobindo : Well, you can make them true if you want to.
Disciple : Is there no truth in them ?
Sri Aurobindo : I say that if you accept their suggestion and want it to come true the powers that are trying to materialise them may succeed.
Disciple : I had an experience which is unforgettable. I started from when my head struck against the door, and people asked me not to go. I did not mind their advice and went. The train by which I started collided with another train and many people died and I had a narrow escape.
Sri Aurobindo : Did all the people who started for the same train get a knock on their heads ? And in spite of the knock you did escape !
Disciple : My father one day suddenly got up from sleep and asked me at the dead of night to get away saying that the house was going to collapse. He dragged me out and the moment we were out of the verandah a portion of the house collapsed.
Sri Aurobindo : That is not an omen, it is a premonition. Many people get that sort of intimation. You can always get it provided you are open to it in the subconscious
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and you allow it to come up to the surface in the conscious being.
Disciple : Do you mean that there are forces that intimate these occurrences ?
Sri Aurobindo : Yes. Man is surrounded by these small physico-vital beings and some of them take a great interest in man. They know the near, the immediate future, what is just going to happen. They can intimate it to you if you are open.
Disciple : Are these ghosts?
Sri Aurobindo : Ghosts are spirits of dead people, while "spirit" is a general term.
Disciple : I had fear of ghosts ; when I knew there were no ghosts my fear disappeared.
Sri Aurobindo : On the contrary, my fear went away when I knew that there were ghosts !
Disciple : Where does fear come from ? Some say it is a function of the spleen as anger is due to the liver.
Sri Aurobindo : Really speaking, fear is in the vital being. When you have thrown it away from your mind am other parts of your being you can see it still passing through you, below the navel. There is a connection between fear and your intestines.
Disciple : Telepathic capacities of the high-class Hindus is due to their pineal gland being twice as developed as that of Europeans. Because of this development they receive telepathic communications more easily than other people.
Sri Aurobindo : What is the function of the peneal gland
Disciple : Its function is not yet exactly known.
Sri Aurobindo : It was supposed to have something to do with the circulation of blood. Where is it situated ?
Disciple : It is just below the level of the two hemisphere of the brain.
Sri Aurobindo : On a level with the eye-brows ?
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Disciple : A little above, perhaps.
Sri Aurobindo : The truth is that these parts act as receiving channels for a higher activity. For instance, now it is well known that the seat of thought is not the brain. The brain is only the communicating channel.
+ + +
Between 6 and 10-8-1926
The question of work outside, – i.e., in the external field – was raised.
Sri Aurobindo : Work can be done in many ways. For instance, I can create a row in India through communal organisation – without giving lectures, or writing in the press. Once the Yogic power is there you can do many things. But the question is whether a particular activity is in keeping with the movement of the Truth. That is quite another matter. One has to see to it that one acts according to the Truth.
Then the question about building a greater India founded upon the Truth was put to Sri Aurobindo.
Sri Aurobindo : I have no such ambition. My ambition is to bring down this Truth into the world and I don't think its sphere would be confined to India. India may be the starting-point but it would act on the whole of humanity.
As to the nature of the work to be done for the world, I don't want to speak now. It is best to leave it to be done at the proper time. But it is the Truth that has to come down and show the form that the work must take. Whatever form it may take, ours is only to be fit instruments for the manifestation of the Truth.
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Disciple : Is it we who would make the greater India ?
Sri Aurobindo : It is quite wrong to say that it is we. If India wants to make itself it is its own business. No one can make a whole nation.
It may be that when the forces are quite in readiness a man may appear who may have to embody the Spirit of the times in himself and so one may feel that he has made the nation. But really speaking it is the nation that has to make itself. It is not like X making the cake; you can't make a nation that way. Nations and such other living entities must grow – they have to grow just as any other living thing grows. No one makes them.
If a greater India is to arise it means, for us at least, that it should be in the image of the Truth we are trying to bring down. In that case, if it succeeds the Truth itself will create its own forms and then it would not be correct to say that we have created the form, because in any case the Truth that we are trying to bring down is greater than ourselves,
There was a reference to Egypt, and the question was : what do the pyramids and the Sphinx stand for.
Sri Aurobindo : I don't know the details about them. Bu evidently the pyramids and the Sphinx must have been connected with the ancient Egyptian religion and occultism. The Egyptians seem to have developed the occult knowledge to a very great extent and it was a dynamic element with them. But as for spiritual knowledge, I don't think they had very much.
A question was put about the mummies.
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Sri Aurobindo : The Egyptians believed that there was a personality of the vital being that remained attached to the body and the idea in preserving the dead body was perhaps that the person might be able to take up the body again or to return to the earth plane.
Disciple : If this work of bringing down the Truth does not succeed in India, do you think India will lose the chance for ever ?
Sri Aurobindo : India has the greatest chance because of her past and because the spiritual force is accumulated here. The real movement is from Above – the Truth trying to come down. Then there is a general upheaval and vague feeling of the Truth coming down – the idea of Avatars, a general questioning of all sorts of idea – and also perversions of the same Truth. But all is due to that movement from Above.
But if India remains indifferent and sticks to old worn-out forms and refuses to move forward, or listen to the call of her soul, then the Truth may recede and try somewhere else. The Truth is not confined to India, it is not India's property. But there is very little chance of its succeeding elsewhere if it fails in India. It may make an unsuccessful, or partially successful, effort somewhere else, like Christianity, and then retire.
3-9-1926
Disciple : One Mr. Sharma, president of the Spiritualist Society in India, says that spirit-communication is
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not only possible but probable. There are also table-rapping séances in which spirits are said to reply to questions. What is the truth behind these thing ?
Sri Aurobindo : Generally, no spirits come from outside. The will of the medium and of the men participating creates a force which brings about the manifestation. The answers generally are from the minds of men who are present. They come from the subconscious mind as also from the subliminal mind which knows many more things than men are aware of. The concentration of men produces the necessary atmosphere, as I said. Genuine cases of intervention – spirits from outside – are very rare. Dead persons can communicate with the living if they feel interested in life, or in men, and are sufficiently near. The Mother knows of these séances. She could make a table move across a room by her force.
But the idea that all sorts of departed persons are hanging about for centuries and respond to table-rapping is ridiculously absurd.
Disciple : There are cases where persons who are dead have informed their friends or relations. Also there are cases of possession by the spirits of dead persons.
Sri Aurobindo : Persons while dying may create thought-forms which can appear before relatives who are at a distance. Also dying persons may leave behind influences which may be taken up by vital beings and used. That would explain genuine cases of obsession or possession by the ghost of departed persons.
Disciple : Can a devilish force appear in a human form ?
Sri Aurobindo : It is a very complicated thing ; if it can take possession at birth it may appear in a human body.
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4-9-1926
Disciple : Yesterday you said about a table being moved across the room. Such an obvious physical effect you said could be produced by will-power.
Sri Aurobindo : It is not exactly will-power – that is only a way of saying. Of course, the power represents itself as will-power to the mind. The will is there as a controlling agent, but really it is a form of vital energy. You can say it is the kinetic vital energy, It can produce a physical effect if it is strong enough and can lay hold on the vital-physical being. It is really the vital-physical that lays hold on the material object and deals with it.
Disciple : One can understand a case in which there is intervention of another physical mind, say in the case of mesmerism.
Sri Aurobindo : In mesmerism one uses the same energy. If one has sufficient force the same can be used to work directly on an object.
Disciple : You once said that it is easy to stop the tapping of the table.
Sri Aurobindo : I was not speaking of these powers on the vital plane, I was speaking of the Supermind. It is a force like electricity, only, it acts in a different way and under different conditions. In these spirit-communications certain conditions are generally created in the atmosphere which acts as the carrier of the force and makes it effective.
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