Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo

ON SOME BOOKS AND LETTERS

A Note:

After 1910 when Sri Aurobindo was engrossed in Sadhana he read very few books. But he was in contact with the world through papers and magazines. Besides, the disciples that were living in the Ashram from 1923 used to read books and they brought some of the ideas and opinions from the books to Sri Aurobindo's notice in the evening talks. Here it may be necessary only to state that the initiative in these talks was very often taken by the disciples and that these talks are not complete reviews of the books mentioned. They will be found interesting as revealing a particular side of Sri Aurobindo's personality, – one in which he was speaking freely to disciples with whom he was familiar.

12-9-1923

Disciple : The "Utkal Star" has written an article on the 15^th of August and the writer points out the absence of Islamic culture in the grand synthesis you have made. I believe the Modern Review also pointed out the same.

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Sri Aurobindo Theadan or Islamic culture hardly gave anything to the world which may be said to be of fundamental importance and typically its own. Islamic culture was mainly borrowed from others. Their mathe­matics and astronomy and other subjects were derived from India and It is true they gave some of these things a new turn. But they have not created much. Their philosophy and their religion are very simple and what they call Sufism is largely the result ofgnostics who lived in Persia and it is the logical outcome of that school of thought largely touched by Vedanta.

I have, however, mentioned that Islamic culture contributed the Indo-saracenic architecture to Indian culture. I do not think it has done anything more in India of cultural value. It gave some new forms to art and poetry. Its political institutions were always semi-barbaric.

9-2-1924

Gospel of Swadeshi by D. B. Kalelkar

("Avatar of Swadeshi" and Kalelkar's interpretation of Swadeshi were the subject of talk.)

Sri Aurobindo : According to his view, even this "gospel of swadeshi" is needless. Everybody must produce what he wants and, at the most, inform his neighbour; even that a man who observes strict swadeshi would not and should not do!

D : I had once a chance of asking Mahatmaji about his using the railway, press, motor car, telegraph : “How does it all fit in with your opposition to machinery?”

Sri Aurobindo : What did he say ?

D : He said, "I am using the machine to fight the machine, as we remove a thorn with a thorn."

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Sri Aurobindo : I see; so do the peace-makers say; they make war in order to end war! (Laughter)

24-4-1924

Eyeless Sight by Dr. Joules Romain

Dr. Joules Romain demonstrated in Paris that a person with his eyes closed with dough of flour was able to see without using the organ of sight. The book affirms four centres of vision in the body over and above the eyes.

1. The forehead and nose for seeing colours.

2. Breast.

3. Back of the head.

4. Finger tips.

It appears from the description that the man does not see at once but begins to see after a time. Colour is seen invariably by the nose and by the cheek. Before the sight begins the man sees colours and lights. For small objects he sees the thing dancing and then the sight settles down to the object.

Sri Aurobindo came out with a cutting from a paper about Eyeless Sight. Two articles had been written on the subject. In the first one the writer, as Sri Aurobindo put it, "was wisely foolish." He characterised the phenomenon as an illusion or due to self-hypnotism etc. The second article, Sri Aurobindo said, was better. He continued:

The corpuscles in the cells about which he speaks are not the centres of sight. They are general centres of sense-functions and can be used for any purpose of sense-perception. All the senses are everywhere. The ancients knew this truth. One can see from everywhere in the body. In the normal human being the different senses become organised : for example, the eye or seeing. But all cells are capable of being conscious.

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Disciple : But to what is due the phenomenon demonstrated by Dr. Joules Romain ?

Sri Aurobindo : In his case it seems to be either a psychic or a psycho-physical phenomenon; because, in the first place, you have to meditate and, secondly, the doctor maintains that sight is all round.

Disciple : But he demands that the coat and the shirt must be removed and that the body must be naked to the waist. This eyeless sight, he says, can see in the dark but not in the light.

Sri Aurobindo : All these ideas are due to Sanskars – fixed impressions. For instance, you are not able to see with the other parts of the face except the eyes because it is a Sanskara.

Disciple : But his experiment failed in the presence of scientists. And Dr. Romain explained it by saying that the atmosphere there was hostile to his work. He succeeded when he tried again at the house of Anatole France.

Sri Aurobindo : That evidently shows that the power working is either psychic or psycho-physical. This phenomenon is quite possible. In her childhood the Mother was able to see even in the dark and she had developed the power of sight everywhere. She is, even now, able to see from behind and this general sight works more accurately than the physical eyes. It works best when the eyes are closed.

Disciple : I saw Prof. B. from behind my body when he was going away. This power, I then felt, could be developed. Is this psychic sight?

Sri Aurobindo : The psychic vision is between the eye-brows, in front, above the head.

In fact not only are all the senses everywhere in the body, but they are even outside the body. You can feel the touch of two different persons and, remaining at a great distance, know how they must be feeling it.

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Disciple : Would all these powers come automatically after transformation, or are they to be developed by the Sadhak.

Sri Aurobindo : Everything is there, but you have to organise these things. In my case I have to develop each of them. The Power is there and is working but the physical has not the faith and so it has got to work out.

Disciple : Can it be said that this way of developing each power is part of the general fight with the physical obstacles ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes.

Disciple : Is it not dangerous for small adhars to try to concentrate on these powers, because they may be swallowed by them?

Sri Aurobindo : It may be. I can never understand that stupid fear of acquiring Siddhis – occult powers – which our people are having. Why should every one be spiritual? Those who want to attain power must do that. I mean if that is the only thing they can do in this life let them do it. He was telling me the same thing this morning. For instance, if a man is capable of writing good poetry why should he be expected to do all things in life? Let one thing be well done. That way the soul develops.

Disciple : But suppose some hostile power gets hold of him ?

Sri Aurobindo : That does not matter; one has to take one's chance, risk is always there. The soul develops by undertaking adventures and even stumbling often. Before that you can't hope to win the crown. It is good to have a certain protection in the beginning and to progress on the spiritual side. But one has to take the risk, reject the lower path and take to the higher truth. Besides, all these things are necessary for the divine manifestation. .

Disciple : Are these things really necessary ?

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Sri Aurobindo : They are. In society, in politics, in fact in every field progress is like that. That is why a moderate policy is foolish. They believe that by gradually going on they will reach the goal, but that is never the case. You go on to a certain extent and then something comes up and envelops the being. The whole of what you have done is broken up and you have to begin over again.

Disciple : But the physical is simply idiotic.

Another Disciple : Because it is so, the work becomes interesting

Sri Aurobindo : Interesting! The vital, you may say, is interesting. But the physical is most idiotically stupid. It is full of Tamas; it wants to go on in its own slow process.

Disciple : The new scientific discoveries which the Westerners are stumbling upon are bound to change their mentality.

Sri Aurobindo : Of course; after the discovery of radium and the theory of light science has taken a higher step. Now it can hardly be called materialistic.

Disciple : The phenomenon of eyeless sight reminds me of the case of a man who emitted "blue light". The scientists were puzzled and thought that they were hypnotised to see the light. Then they exposed photographic plates and found that the light was being emitted.

Sri Aurobindo : (smiling) All these phenomena – eyeless sight, light-emission or miraculous cures-are psychic and it is absurd to try to explain them away and more absurd to doubt them.

Disciple : There was the reported case of a missionary who cured a blind man, and also miraculous cures are reported from St. Xavier's tomb at Goa.

Sri Aurobindo : Those kinds of phenomena are very common even to-day. In France at Notre Dame at Lourdes lame people are cured. Only, the power that is working there acts very irregularly, some get absolutely cured,

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while some are not affected. But all those who want see and be convinced can see them. A friend of The Mother – a lady – was so cured. This working is due to the presence of some psychic power. There are no limits to its capacities. There are authentic cases of men effecting such cures without themselves being conscious of the psychic force working through them.

Disciple : Ramakrishna felt the blows given to a bullock and there were marks of the stripes on his body. Is this action due to the kind of extended sense of which Dr. Joules speaks ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. That kind of story is current about many yogis. It is, of course, due to the psychic sense – which is not limited to the physical body – but the intensity of it is due to something else.

12-6-1924

There was talk about a poem written by Mrs. Maud Sharma, wife of Thakur Dutt Sharma. It was a poem on a "chair".

Sri Aurobindo : Some of the phrases she used are rather remarkable. There is some poetic capacity in her.

Disciple : Did you read Harin Chattopadhyaya's "Saints Series" recently published?

Sri Aurobindo : I read his Pundalik and Mira Bai. The form of drama does not suit him. It is most undramatic. He should not go in for it."

There was a letter from G. V. Subba Rao containing his correspondence with Gandhiji, V. Hanumantha Rao of Nellore and also his letter to Drummond. In the first letter Mahatmaji said that he had respect for Sri Aurobindo’s

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intellect and that he was open to light from any quarter about Truth and non-violence.

In the second letter he wrote to Subba Rao that Devadas had seen Sri Aurobindo and that he would follow his own light.

He also mentioned in this letter that he knew about Sri Aurobindo from Devadas and C. R. Das.

23-8-1925

"Joan of Arc" by George Bernard Shaw

Sri Aurobindo : These men, Chesterton and G. B. S., try to be clever at any cost. It seems that G. B. S. wants to put in here the idea of evolution.

(After three days)

Sri Aurobindo : I have finished reading Joan of Arc. It is no drama at all. Joan talks like a pushing impertinent peasant girl and Charles VII talks like a school urchin and all the rest talk like London shop-boys except when they talk about high subjects, and then they talk Shaw. There was certain poetry in Joan's speech, action, etc. But here the whole thing is knocked out and instead you have vulgar modern prose.

In order to write about that age you ought to know about the Roman Catholic Church, feudalism etc. Bernard Shaw has his own views about them and instead of giving a picture of those times he has given his own opinion on them.

4-12-1925

There was an article in the "Sabarmati" by Kishorlal Mashruwala stating : "However great a yogi may be he ought not to say anything against morality''.

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Sri Aurobindo : What does he mean by "morality"? So long as you need to be virtuous you have not attained the pure spiritual height where you have not to think whether the action is moral or not. These people hastily conclude that when you ask them to rise above morality, you are asking them to sink below good and evil. That is not at all the case.

Disciple : They believe that a man can advance only by morality i.e. by remaining moral.

Sri Aurobindo : Nobody denies that. By morality you become more human, but you do not go beyond humanity. Morality has done much good to man, maybe; it has also done much harm.

The question is whether you can rise to something above man by morality. That sort of mental limitation is not conducive to the growth into the Spirit.

Disciple : But they always confuse morality with spirituality.

Sri Aurobindo : Like the Christians to whom there is no difference between morality and spirituality. For instance, take this fast now announced. It is a Christian idea of atonement for sin. All those other reasons which are given make it rather ridiculous.

Indian culture knew the value of morality, and also its limitations. The Upanishads and the Gita are loud with and full of the idea of going beyond morality. For instance, when the Upanishad says : "he does not need to think whether what he is doing is good or bad" – Sadhu, Asadhu. Such a man attains a consciousness in which there is no need to think about morality because the action proceeds from the Truth.

There was talk about Emile Couè – "Marvel of Couèism – "

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Sri Aurobindo : It is so easy to make money in life and yet we don't get any money.

(This remark was the result of his perception that the whole institution of Couèism was being commercialised.)

Disciple : Then that means we don't know how to make money.

Sri Aurobindo : I know how to make money ; only, as Couè would say, I have not the "imagination" or as I would say, I have not the "will" to do it. I know the easy methods but I prefer to take the more difficult path. That was the main objection of X to myself. He always said that I was unpractical because I used to upset all his plans that were most likely to succeed.

14-4-1926 – 22-5-1926

Cosmic Consciousness by Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke (Madras 1923)

Précis of the general points discussed.

["There are three forms or grades of consciousness :

1. Simple consciousness which is possessed by the upper half of the animal kingdom …. A dog is conscious of things around him.

2. Self-consciousness. Man is conscious of himself as a distinct entity apart from all the rest of the universe..... It is as good as certain that no animal can realise himself in that way.

Man can say : "I know it is true'" – and also "I know that I know it is true". Language is the objective side of the phenomenon of which self-consciousness is the subjective.

3. Cosmic consciousness, etc.]

Sri Aurobindo : I know the Western people won't leave aside reason in their dealing with the material sciences, but when they come to Yoga or Spiritual experiences they

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do not seem to keep their heads ; they are like children in these things.

For instance, take Dr. Bucke's case. It is evident there has been some experience. It must be the case with many other people in Europe. Immediately they break a little out of their brain-mind they begin to generalise without waiting to see quietly what the experience is about. They do not allow the experience to get settled. If Dr. Bucke had waited and tried to see how what he calls "cosmic consciousness" comes, what are the conditions of its experience, and what it really is, then he would have found that his generalisation that "the cosmic consciousness must come all of a sudden" is not correct.

Then again it is not necessary that it must come to everyone in that form : "a column of fire”!

If he had waited he would have found that his experience had two elements, the mental and the psychic, to which the vision of fire was due. I do not think that Christ had the same experience or even Edward Carpenter.

When I first got the cosmic consciousness – I call it the passive Brahman – I did not fall into unconsciousness of common things; I was fully conscious on the physical plane. It was at Baroda and it did not go away soon, it did not last only a few moments as Bucke lays down. It lasted for months... I could see the Higher Consciousness above the mind and I saw that it was that which was reflected in the mind. The world and all people appeared as in a cinema; all these things appeared very small.

What Bucke and some of the other people get is some sense of the Infinite on the mental plane and they begin to think that it is everything.

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His whole book is a generalisation from one experience which lasted only a few seconds. One ought not to rush into print with so little.

The division of consciousness into three forms or types is all right in a rough way. But his statement that man has self-consciousness while the animal has no is not quite true. And his argument is : because animals, have no articulate speech and because they don't know that they exist, therefore they are not self-conscious. He admits that animals have reasoning power. But it is not true that they have no language. They have some sort of intoned sounds which are like the language of the pigmies and also they have a power of wonderful telepathic communication of impulse ... So, having no articulate language does not imply absence of self-consciousness. Of course, the animals have no intellectual ideas to convey. But they have self-consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness, as he describes it, seems to be the coming down of Light with the intuitive mind. But that is not the whole level of the Higher Consciousness above the mind. There are other truths which are as real as those of which Dr. Bucke speaks.

He got into that higher state and was evidently in exaltation; there must have been some play of the intuitive mind, and the intellect working at great speed. He himself admits that the experience can last for some hours. What he ought to have done is to say to himself : "Let me see whether it can be made normal." It is no use having the cosmic consciousness for a few moments in one's life. And Bucke says that the whole of humanity is going to get it.

If humanity is going to have it, it must be a normal cosmic consciousness. In some cases the experience comes back by itself. One must wait and ask for it and see what it is. In other cases one has to work it out and

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see whether it can become normal. But these people are soon satisfied.

Ectoplasme et Clairvoyance by Dr. Gustave Geley

Sri Aurobindo brought the book out from his room and putting it on the table started speaking.

Sri Aurobindo : I tried to read the book. But then I found that it was not necessary to read the whole because I have been able to form an idea about it from the illustrations.

The illustrations are of the lowest vital plane as is evident from the forms which they have thrown out and also from the faces of the mediums. They are most diabolical, what the Christians call "devilish".

Disciple : But the book is given the appearance of a scientific work.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not a scientific work. These people, who meddle in these fields of consciousness of which they know nothing, claim to be experts! These forms are created by using the vital force of the mediums themselves. I do not know to what degrading influences these poor mediums are subjecting themselves!

Europe is meddling in these things without knowing what they are. That is the result of a sceptical denial of any higher possibility of spiritual and divine life on the one hand, and a spirit of mere curiosity on the other. If Europe wants something genuine in the spiritual life, it is absolutely necessary for it to throw away all this rubbish.

Disciple : Is it because of its dangers ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, the vital is always a very dangerous plane to open oneself to. It is that which leads one to

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side-tracks in spiritual endeavour – Sadhana. Besides, as the writer himself admits, the evidence does not prove anything beyond the fact that supraphysical planes exist. These vital beings can take the substance from the vital plane and also gather stuff from the minds of those present and create a form. It does not prove that they are the persons they claim to be. Not that disembodied spirits don't exist, but this way it can't be proved.

Disciple : Cannot a Yogi do something in this field ?

Sri Aurobindo : You can only meddle in this field when you have got some higher power and some real knowledge. Otherwise, you get to it by the wrong end : to get to the vital by the wrong end is the most dangerous thing.

No! If Europe follows this line, it will create a black bar across any descent of the higher Light.

Disciple : Would these phenomena occur if a Yogi – a true Yogi – was present ?

Sri Aurobindo : Let anyone who has the true Light be present in these séances and you will see that none of these phenomena will take place. These forces would simply run away.

Scepticism and agnosticism are better than these things. Though they are negative and in opposition they have something which can be turned into a substance of Light. But these forces are positively perverse and in opposition, – they are against the Truth.

No opening must be given to these forces. There is an imposition of ignorance and scepticism which has been introduced or interposed so that the hostile vital world may not break the barrier easily, except in stray cases.

Disciple : But why is there no spiritual opening in Europe ? And why do those who are spiritual there not protest against this?

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Sri Aurobindo : Why should they ?

Disciple : Could one say that there is no spirituality in Europe ?

Sri Aurobindo : You mean : no spiritual endeavour? It will come in time. In that case these vital forces have to work through the usual psychological opening which the normal man gives : they have to work through desires, impulses etc. But this kind of work in the occult is an effort on the part of the lower vital forces to break the barrier and gain possession of the physical plane. If they could succeed they would retard the whole course of evolution and the destiny of the race. Therefore, throwing the doors of consciousness open to them, as these people do, is the most dangerous thing. Of course, at a certain point, the higher Power would certainly intervene and throw them away.

Disciple : The book claims to reveal the future by showing the forms of what is going to happen.

Sri Aurobindo : The sight, the subtle sight, of forms of the future is not knowledge. It is a limited development which allows one to have some knowledge. But the higher knowledge is different, – in the vital and the mental the knowledge attained is not the same.

Disciple : The kind of spiritism gives one the Knowledge of the future; and that attracts men.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not necessary to know the future. It is better that I should have the spiritual consciousness than know the future.

Disciple : Could one apply the method of science to this field ?

Sri Aurobindo : The scientific method is fruitless as applied to these occult subjects or even to life. Dr. J. C. Bose has shown that there is a nervous response in the plants. But nervous response is not vital force. It does not prove the existence of vital force. Vital force is like a pianist who is invisible. You can only see the mechanism of the piano and the playing but not the player.

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Also you should not apply the standards which are valid in a higher field to a field of action below. You falsify the knowledge if you do that. It is like trying to prove the existence of God or of the Spirit, by physical means. One can't prove it because it is not a physical thing.

This book only says, "There are some things supra- physical". That is all right. But it does not prove what the author claims.

Disciple : There are some in India who want to try this spiritism here.

Sri Aurobindo : It would only result in bringing those lower forces here. Europe at least is protected by a certain stolidity of mind. The Europeans can develop clairvoyance – it is already there. One can develop such faculties without calling in the aid of these perverse spirits. What is needed is a change in the angle of vision towards spiritualism. Real spiritualism is not ideas about the Spirit or mentalised spiritual knowledge. Also men must lessen their curiosity in these subjects.

Disciple : In explaining life or personality modern science tries to explain everything by the external, i.e., by heredity, by the gland, the nerve etc.

Sri Aurobindo : In these psychological fields I must study myself and find out the truth. But if science says that everything is glands and nerves etc. then I have to do nothing. I admit glands may have something to say in the matter of life or personality but I say it is very minute. About reaction in the physical my experience is that one has to make the cells conscious, – they again forget and become unconscious, one has to make them conscious time and again.

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19-5-1926

There was a discussion about Osserwiceki's book dealing with clairvoyance, telekinesis, seeing different colours, ectoplasmic substance etc.

Sri Aurobindo : Is he conscious of how and what he is doing, that is the question. If he is not conscious then the action must be mediumistic.

Disciple : How is he able to move an object while remaining at a distance ? And how is he able to leave his physical body and with his vital body make himself felt somewhere else?

Sri Aurobindo : Tremendous vital force is necessary to move an object at a distance.

The Mother had such an experience in Algeria when she was there. She left her body and made herself felt to her friends in Paris where she signed her name and even moved an object. At another time she moved up and down a train in her vital being and saw everything.

The Slavs as a race are psychically more sensitive but generally they do not control these occult forces. The Jews, having a long-standing tradition about these powers, seem to know the way of mastering them.

Théon, the Mother's first teacher, had great powers and knew bow to use them. Sometimes these powers are gifts.

When one leaves the physical being and goes into the vital world he must know how to protect himself or someone must protect him.

Disciple : Do not space and time exist on the vital plane ?

Sri Aurobindo : The vital plane has its own time and space. There is a relation between the physical and the vital planes. There is an Infinite with extension and an Infinite without extension. One creates space and time and the other is caitanya ghana, – condensed or self-gathered Infinite.

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Disciple : Can an injury in the vital transfer itself to the physical ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, an injury to the vital easily goes through to the physical.

Disciple : Can the vital being get fatigued ?

Sri Aurobindo : Generally the vital being does not get fatigued, if you can draw the force from the Universal vital or from Above.

Disciple : They say that certain substances like incense, and certain sounds like that of a conch, and objects like a sword can prevent the Asuric forces from acting.

Sri Aurobindo : All these are not effective in themselves, but they produce an influence by the power you put into them. In the case of incense, by the power of Agni a psychic influence is produced which these vital beings do not like, but a powerful Asura would not be influenced by sound.

11-6-1926

On Einstein's Theory :

Disciple : According to Einstein's theory, although there is a formed independent Reality, it is quite different from what we know about it. Observed Matter and the laws of the physical sciences exist only by our mind. It is all a working in a circle. Our mind defines Matter in order to deal with what exists; it observes conservation of Matter, but that is because the mind is such that in order to observe Reality it must posit conservation first. Time and Space also, in the new Physics, seem to be our mind's formations of something which is not divisible or separable into time and space.

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by mind ? You try to appropriate mind to yourself. But really there is no

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my mind or your mind – but mind or rather movement of mind. Mind is universal, even the animal has got it. We can only speak of human mind which is a particular organization of the general principle of Mind. One can speak of one’s own mind for the sake of convenience, i.e. for practical purposes.

Disciple : What then, makes the difference between individuals?

Sri Aurobindo : There is no fundamental difference. The difference is in detail, in the development, evolution and organization of forces. For instance, I have, by virtue of my past evolution, developed and organized certain forces in me, but the principle is the same.

The human mind in dealing with the universe has to deal with certain relations of objects and rely upon the senses and other instruments and therefore it cannot be sure of what it receives of the universe it cannot be sure of what it receives of the universe and the truth of the reality that corresponds to it. This is so because, first of all, the instruments, that is, the senses are imperfect. Even his reason and the will to know do not give man the knowledge of the Truth; Reason is mainly useful for practical purposes because it enables man to deal with universal facts as they are organized now. That was the view which Bergson took : “Reason”, he said “is an instrument of action not of knowledge.” It is organized knowledge directed to action. When you have taken up a position intuitively, reason comes in afterwards and supplies you with the chain of justification.

Take for consideration a law : what do you mean by a law? It means that under certain conditions the same movement of forces always recurs. It depends on the human mind, – the condition of mental consciousness. But suppose the consciousness changes, then the law also is bound to change and it would be seen from quite a different position. So, all the laws are relative. That

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seems to be the truth, from our point of view, behind Einstein's theory.

All these ideas about the universe are based on the assumption that the Infinite can organise a universe only on these particular lines with which mankind is at present familiar. But that is purely an assumption.

Disciple : There is a new standpoint reached by Einstein's theory that the laws of the physical universe are related to the law of numbers and as this law seems absolute to our mind, the laws of the physical world are also absolute. They cannot be otherwise. If the law of number is different in another universe, or on another plane, then the laws of that world would be different.

It was thought once that laws are restrictions placed by Nature upon infinite possibilities; e.g. a stone has to fall down in a straight line only, it could not take any other course. But now it is seen that this idea of restriction is an imposition from our mind. There is no such thing.

Sri Aurobindo : If your mind is in search of the Absolute then it is a vain search. First of all, it is a question whether there is any reality corresponding to what the mere mind formulates as the Absolute.

Secondly, even if such an Absolute or Reality exists it is doubtful how you are going to reach it.

Thirdly, even if you could realise it, I don't think it would matter very much.

There are, beyond mind, three Absolutes – the Ananda, the Chit-Tapas, that is, the Consciousness and Power aspect, and the Sat (the Being). These three really are Absolute, Infinite and One.

But when you begin to deal with the movements of Ananda, movements of consciousness and force in manifestation (here) then you have to distinguish and differentiate between high and low, true and false movements.

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Now with regard to the law of numbers' it merely states the organisation of the physical part of the universe and even there it gives knowledge of only a part. But, there is not merely the quantitative law of formation, but also a qualitative law which is more important than the quantitative. These laws of Nature you call absolute. But suppose I bring the yogic force into play and am able to overcome the law of gravitation, that is, bring about levitation, then is it not breaking the absolute law ?

Disciple : But then another force, quite different from the purely physical, enters into play. If the laws of the physical are not dependable then what is the use of this mental knowledge?

Sri Aurobindo : It is very useful. It is even .necessary. It enables man to deal with physical facts and establishes his control over physical phenomena.

Disciple : But that control is not perfect. Another question is : Whether the scientists would come to believe or accept that the whole truth cannot be attained by mind, or would they turn sceptics like the positivists? Could they come to believe in the possibility of higher Knowledge by mysticism?

Sri Aurobindo : Never mind what they accept or don't accept, but the control which science gives is a real control. The knowledge science gives, as I said, is not only useful but is even necessary. The main concern of the scientist is with physical phenomena, – he observes them, he studies the conditions, makes experiments and then deduces the laws.

Disciple : Can one study the planes of consciousness in the scientific way ?

Sri Aurobindo : I already spoke one day about occultism which deals with the knowledge of the forces of those planes and the way of mastering them.

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Even in yoga we have to do the same. We have to find out the right Dharma, the right way of functioning, of movement of forces. Not merely the law which is mechanical, but the Dharma of the movement of forces. An ordinary law merely means an equilibrium established by Nature; it means a balance of forces. It is merely a groove in which Nature is accustomed to work in order to produce certain results. But, if you change the consciousness, then the groove also is bound to change. For instance, I observe the forces on the vital plane, I see what they are, and what they intend. If they are hostile they attack me. Then I have to find out how they shall not attack me.

I put forth some force and see how they react; I have also to see how they would react if I put forth the force in a different way.

Even in knowing physical phenomena, the Yogi's way of knowing is different from that of the scientist. For instance, when I light a match I do not know the chemical composition of the match, and how it burns when struck. But I feel and know beforehand whether it will light or not or whether it will do the work intended of it, and that is enough for me. I know it because I am in contact with the force that is in it, the Sat and the Chit in movement there.

The Yogi's way of dealing with these physical forces is also different from that of the scientist. Take, for instance, the fire that broke out in Tokyo. What the scientist would do is to multiply means and organise devices to prevent and put out the fire. What the Yogi would do in the same case is that he would feel the Spirit of fire approaching and, putting forth his force, he would be able to prevent the fire from breaking out in his vicinity.

These dealings are with quite different orders of facts.

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Disciple : There are some people who claim, or pretend to know the result of a lottery. Cagliostro was such a person, and tradition says that his claim was valid. Is it done by the same way of knowing as in the case of the match box?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes.

Disciple : But I know of cases where the man used to put somebody into a clairvoyant state by hypnotism and then know the number that was going to succeed in a speculation. But whenever he had a desire to gain for himself he always failed.

Sri Aurobindo : That was bound to influence the working of forces, because he was not passive. If you remain passive, supposing that you are open to the plane in question, you could get the right number. It is not a moral question, it is a question of disturbing the proper working of a process.

Disciple : Some of the great Yogis while dealing with these lower forces feel that they have come down from their spiritual height and have lost some ground. Why do they feel like that?

Sri Aurobindo : Generally the Yogis of the traditional school wanted to get away from Nature into a kind of Absolute, either of Sat or of Chit or of Ananda. So long as they remained in that experience they felt they were in high spiritual condition. But they hardly cared to organize anything on the lower planes. So whenever they had to deal with the forces of Nature they had to come down and meet them on the same level. As they came down they felt they had lost their high spiritual condition.

Disciple : It was probably because of this that they went against the use of spiritual power.

Sri Aurobindo : In your Yoga there are two movements of Nature : one is the movement of light and knowledge and the other is the movement of force or will. Generally it is the movement of knowledge that comes first; and is

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more perfect than the movement of force and action. In the beginning these two movements are separate, and in fact, the will is more effective when the knowledge is shut out.

Disciple : How is it possible for knowledge to be ineffective or less effective?

Sri Aurobindo : I may have the correct knowledge that an accident will happen, but I may not have the power to prevent it from happening.

As one develops the yogic life these two movements approach each other and in the Supermind they are two aspects of the same Truth. The light of knowledge carries in it effective power and the will becomes more and more enlightened in its action. That is why we speak of more and more luminous action and more and more effective knowledge.

Disciple : Why do the lower forces attack the Yogi ?

Sri Aurobindo : In order to bring him down to the lower level, so as to prevent him from ascending to the higher levels of consciousness and organising anything there. When I go up in consciousness and try to organise something above, these forces come and attack me, and I have to come down and meet them. There is some kind of organisation of the higher Power here in the lower nature with which I have to meet them. For instance, it is possible to prevent people from getting ill, and this organisation is workable in practice and sufficient for us to go on with. But it is not what has got to be done, it is not the highest nor the perfect movement.

It is well known that once you come down in consciousness you find it difficult to go up again. There are two ways of meeting these attacks of the lower forces : (1) either you have to remain perfectly calm and allow the higher Power to protect you if it likes, or, (2) you have to come down and fight them with your forces.

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ON SOME BOOKS AND LETTERS

That is to say, there is no force of attraction exerted between objects. He says that what we call gravitation is due to curvature of space.

Sri Aurobindo : What is all that ?

Disciple : He says that Euclidian geometry is not applicable to the material world. That is to say, space is not flat, a three-dimensional analogue of a two-dimensional flat surface. Euclidian figures like the square and solids and straight lines are abstract, not real or actual. He also says that material space is "boundless but not infinite".

Sri Aurobindo : How do you know ? Perhaps it is not space that is limited but our capacity to measure space that is limited. Besides, how can you say that space is limited to Matter ? There is a non-material space beyond this material universe. A being can leave behind our material space.

Disciple : Einstein began his contribution by proving that simultaneity of events, constancy of mass and length etc. are all relative and not absolute. If the same length is measured from a body moving with great velocity at a distance the length would change. Besides, he showed that in a system of reference if the whole frame of reference moves uniformly then no measurement within the system can give you the proof of the uniform motion.

He has also shown that time is an indispensable factor in the measurement of dimensions of an object.

Sri Aurobindo : Time is not an indispensable factor of dimension. Movement is absolutely necessary to feel time. When an object is stationary the consideration of time does not enter in measuring the dimensions unless you move it to some other point. Really speaking, one has to know space as the extension of being and time as an extension of energy.

Disciple : According to science everything is moving. Earth is going round the Sun and revolving on its axis.

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If we tap on the same place twice Einstein would say we have not tapped on the same place, for the earth has moved 18 miles per second in the meantime.

Sri Aurobindo : But the taps do not change the dimensions of the board ! only, you can say that a consideration of time is necessary to complete your measurements of space.

Disciple : Einstein has introduced a fourth dimension of time, in addition to length, breadth, and height; their combination he calls the time-space continuum. It can be conceived as a cylinder over which a spiral is wound.

Sri Aurobindo : It is only a phrase ! Time cannot be relegated to the position of a mere dimension of space, it is independent in its nature; Time and space may be called the fundamental dual dimensions of the Brahman.

Disciple : Ouspensky has an idea in his Tertium Organum that our three-dimensional world is a projection from a subtler fourth-dimension which is suprasensual but real. He means to say that to each solid form we see here there corresponds a subtler form of it which is in the fourth dimension.

Sri Aurobindo : That is perfectly true, the cube would not be held together and therefore would not be a solid if something in the subtle dimension did not maintain it. Only, it is not visible to the physical eye but can be seen with the subtle eye.

Disciple : Sir Arthur Eddington in his Gifford Lectures (1934) says that science began with the aim of reducing the complexity of the material world to a great simplicity. But now, it seems, science has not been able to keep its promise and no model of the material universe is possible. A good deal of mathematics and specialisation is necessary now to understand what science says about the material world. Eddington says that the table on which he is writing is not merely a piece of wood. Scientifically

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speaking, it is a conglomeration of electrical particles, called Electrons, moving at a very great velocity, and even though the particles are moving, his hands can rest on the surface and not go through.

He has also argued against the scientists who insist that the so-called objective view is the only view that is permissible or intended. The rainbow is not intended I .only to give man the knowledge, or experience, of the difference in the wave-lengths of light. The poet is equally entitled to his experience when he says, "My heart leaps up when I behold a rainbow in the sky".

So also a 'ripple' in water is not meant only to give man the knowledge of the pressure of the air, and the force of surface-tension.

Sri Aurobindo : Validity of human knowledge is not dependent on physical science alone. Physical science is only one side of knowledge. The poet's and the mystic's and the artist's experience have equal validity.

Disciple : Eddington argues that even in so-called objective scientific knowledge it is mind that is asked to judge ultimately. 8x4 is 32 and not 23, why?

Sri Aurobindo : It is:, by an intuition and repetition of experience and not merely by reason that man finds that one is right and the other wrong

Now even the scientists have been forced to admit that their conclusions are not all based on reason. Their formulas have become like magic formulas.

Disciple : They say that they can demonstrate their conclusions.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, demonstration to the mind again.

26-12-1939

Disciple : N. was puzzled about time and space because it is not clear whether time and space are properties of matter.

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Sri Aurobindo : Time and space can't be properties of matter, at least time is not material. Space and time are the extensions of the Brahman. For instance, you feel when you go deep in meditation that there is an inner space, – cidākāśa, which extends to infinity, and our material space is only a result of it. So time also is extension of Brahman in movement.

You can see that time and space both are not the same for man every time. When your mind travels from Calcutta to London it is not in the material space and not in the time that you feel with the outer mind. It is in the mind itself that you move.

Space also is a movement of the Brahman inasmuch as it is an extension, but there is a difference as far as time is concerned.

Disciple : We are conscious of the movement of Brahman as time because we live from moment to moment and we can feel time only by events. So also the world is an extension.

Sri Aurobindo : In that way everything is an extension – expression, projection, manifestation, – of the Brahman. It is only a way of saying.

Disciple : Some say that time does not exist at all.

Sri Aurobindo : Who says it? It depends upon the point of view and state of consciousness from which you say it; i.e. whether one says it only intellectually, or from an experience,

Disciple : Time may not exist in a consciousness where the universe does not exist.

Sri Aurobindo : Quite so.

Disciple : The scientists define gravitation as only a curvature of space – and, as we know matter only by weight, matter is a curvature of space.

Sri Aurobindo : But what about matter being the same as energy ?

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Disciple : Einstein admits their identity and says that energy has weight.

Disciple : How can energy have weight ?

Disciple : If you wound your watch and unwound it – there would be a difference in the weight ? (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : But what you have to ask is : "what is Energy ?"

17–9–1940

Disciple : According to science there is no empty space anywhere, that is to say, there is no emptiness in space. There are two schools of physicists: Some believe that there is what they call "cosmic dust” in all space. Others say that the ray of light being material can pass through nothing – there is no necessity to imagine anything between.

Sri Aurobindo : "Nothing" means what ? Does it mean non-existence, or nothing that we can, or do, sense ? If you say it is non-existence then nothing can pass through it, you empty a tube or a vessel of the air or gas it contains and say it is a vacuum. But how do you know there is nothing in it ?

Disciple : If there was anything in it, there would be resistance.

Sri Aurobindo : Why should you assume that everything must offer resistance ? If 'nothing' means non-existence then if anything enters non-existence it becomes non-existence. If you enter non-existence you cease to be. A ray can arrive only at nowhere through nothing.

Disciple : That may be occult knowledge.

Sri Aurobindo: It is not merely occult knowledge but occult knowledge and common sense.

Disciple : What is space ?

Sri Aurobindo : The question remains : either it is a conception

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or any entity. If it is a conception only, then your observations can also be only conceptions, that is to say, they happen in you only. Then you come to Mayavada : nothing but you exists.

Disciple : The latest idea is that space is curved.

Sri Aurobindo : What is the meaning of space being curved? Einstein speaks of curvature of space round the Sun and when a body gets near it, it goes down the curve. But the question is: what is that curve and in what does it exist?

For instance, some say the universe is expanding, in what? There must be something in which it is expanding. And why is a ray of light deflected in the sun's neighbourhood ? You say : because there is a curve. But why is there a curve ? And in what is that curve?

And then, what is expanding? Is it Matter ? You will say : No. Then Energy ? You say : yes. But the energy is expanding into what? You say space is bent: the question is : is matter bent or space ?

Disciple : The amount of Matter in the universe is limited – it is finite.

Matter has weight arid the weight of all matter is known.

Sri Aurobindo : But what is matter ? Is it a wave or a particle?

Disciple : According to the quantum theory it is a particle which is matter and energy at the same time.

Sri Aurobindo : If you say that matter is finite then there must be some medium which supports matter and which is infinite. You say matter has weight, – what is weight?

Disciple : Some of the scientists say that the sun is losing weight at a certain rate and the time when it will be exhausted is calculated !

Sri Aurobindo : How do you know that the sun is not renewing its weight ?

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Disciple : What else can science do ? It must take the data and make a hypothesis.

Sri Aurobindo : In the real science :

i. You must have the right data.

ii. Then you should draw the right inference. The difficulty is that you can never be sure of having all the data for any phenomenon.

Disciple : There are so many calculations : earth's age, the rate of the expanding universe, the sun's birth, the age of the sun etc.

Sri Aurobindo : I sympathise with Shaw who says: "they don't know what it really is." Something escapes from their calculations like the fish from the fisherman's net.

22-6-1926

Patanjali's Raja Yoga :

(There are many persons who believe that "Yoga" means the Raja-Yoga of Patanjali. His sutras are well known. It is a scientific method which resorts to:

1. Physico-vital processes depending on Pranayama and Asanas taken from Hatha Yoga.

2. Psycho-vital and psycho-mental processes in a gradually rising series: patyāhāra, dhyān, dhārāna and samādhi. Even though the Gita gave currency to quite a different idea of Yoga and even of Samadhi, the popular mind- in India has believed that Yoga means Raja-Yoga, in most cases at least. It is apparent that Sri Aurobindo's Yoga is quite different from the Raja-Yoga of Patanjali. It does not take the mental consciousness and its condition as the constant point of reference; for, its aim is not to secure a mental state which might reflect the Infinite but to rise above the mind. Besides, it adds the process of Descent of the Supramental consciousness, into

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human nature which necessitates a complete transformation of the ignorant human nature into the divine : it transforms the aparā prakrti into the parā )

Sri Aurobindo : The aim of Patanjali was to rise to a higher consciousness. He proposed to do it by replacing the general Rajasic movements of nature by the Sattwic There was no idea of practising morality in it, or of ethics. Besides, Yama and Niyama were never the aim of his efforts; the aim was to rise above the ordinary consciousness and even his idea of Samyama and Nigraha was not dictated by morality. He, wanted to gather power for a spiritual purpose and so he discouraged the spending away of forces in the ordinary way.

15-1-1939

Dr. R. came to-day and in course of his talk he said : "Medicines, after all, are not of much value. It is something else that effects the cure". (Then Dr. R. went away)

Sri Aurobindo : A doctor known to the Mother used to say that it is the doctor that heals, not the medicines. It is chiefly the healing power that works; if it is there then medicines lend their properties to the healing power.

Disciple : The ancients perhaps recognised it as the vital force.

Sri Aurobindo": Yes. Even now in some French Universities like Montpèlier, I hear, they admit the working of this vital force. They seem to have preserved the old tradition coming down from their contact with Spain; Spain got it from Asia when it came under the Arab influence.

Disciple : The same theory may come back to us now.

Sri Aurobindo : At one time the physical sciences claimed to explain everything. But now they seem to realise that

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science cannot explain everything. So, they turn round and say: '"It is not our business to explain."

Disciple : They have come to admit that the law of causation which had no exception is, now, not without exception. In certain cases the cause cannot be determined because in trying to determine the cause one would be obliged to meddle with the process. This is called indeterminism.

Sri Aurobindo : They can also say that God's thoughts are indeterminable !

Disciple : There are some scientists who are trying to prove the existence of spiritual and supra-physical truths by science.

Sri Aurobindo : That is a futile effort. You cannot found metaphysics on science. The whole basis of your thought will tumble every time science changes.

Disciple : Can it not be said that there is something in philosophy which corresponds to the truth of science ?

Sri Aurobindo : No; all you can say is that certain conclusions of metaphysics agree and correspond to certain conclusions of science.

Disciple : The continental scientists have refused to build a philosophy of science. They say that it is not their business to explain, but to lay bare the process. Eddington in his Gifford Lectures (1934) said that ultimately it is the human mind, the subjective element, which accepts one conclusion out of a number of possible conclusions. Scientific conclusion does not always depend upon objective reality but upon subjective interpretation. For example, 8 x 2 is equal to 16 and not 61 – it is the mind that accepts this truth.

Sri Aurobindo : In this case it is the accumulated experience or, you may say, invariable experience, that gives the sense of certainty.

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Disciple : Scientists study the rainbow and find that it is caused by the difference in the wave-lengths of light and they might say that is the reality of the rainbow. But when the poet exclaims: "My heart leaps up when I behold a rainbow in the sky" we have no right to say that the knowledge or experience of the scientist is right and that of the poet wrong.

Sri Aurobindo : In fact, the rainbow exists for neither. Only the scientist gets excited over the process, while the poet is excited over the result of the process.

Disciple: Did you read Spengler's Decline of the West

Sri Aurobindo : I have not read the book. What does he say?

Disciple : It is a very encyclopaedic work. But there emerge a few main ideas : e.g. Spengler says that Time is not a neutral entity, it has got a direction, a tendency; – something like a tension. It tends to produce certain events. It points to a destiny, to something towards which the sum of forces seems to lead inevitably.

On the data of human history he believes that there have been cycles in the life of the human race when cultures have arisen, reached a zenith and then declined. From a study of these it is possible to predict the decline of human cultures. European culture at present is full of these symptoms of decline and therefore it is bound to decline. The signs of this decline are the rise of big cities, impoverishment of the countryside, capitalism etc.

He says that to classify history as Primitive, Mediaeval and Modern is not correct. We must study universal history and that too impersonally. The mathematical discoveries that are seen in a particular culture are organically connected with that culture. The Greek for instance, could never have arrived at the conception of the "series" – regularly increasing or decreasing numbers leading to infinite number. The "series-idea” is only possible in modern culture.

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He even maintains that even if you grant that Napoleon's rise could have been prevented by some causes, still the results that came as a consequence of Napoleon's career would have followed inevitably because they were destined.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't quite understand. Big cities have always existed. And even granting that there is destiny, why could it not be changed ? He says about Napoleon that the results of his rise would have followed inevitably. It is a very debatable proposition I believe the results would have materially varied. If Napoleon had not come at that time the European powers would have crushed the French Democracy. Napoleon stabilised the revolution, so that the world got the ideal of democracy. But if he had not been there it would have been delayed by two or three centuries, perhaps.

As to destiny, what do you mean by destiny ? It is a word and men are easily deceived by words. Is destiny a working of inert, blind, material forces ? In that case, there is no room for choice, you have to end by accepting Shankara's Mayavada, or else rank materialism.

But if you mean by destiny that there is a will at work in the universe then a choice in action becomes possible.

And when he speaks of cycles there is some truth in the idea, but it is not possible to make a rigid rule about the recurrence of the cycles. These cycles are plastic and need not be all of the same duration. In the Aryan Path Mr. Morris has written an article full of study of facts and historical data in which he tries to show that human history has always run in a cycle of five hundred years. He even believes that there are Mahatmas who manage this world.

I believe the extension of mathematical numbers to infinity was well known in India long long ago.

(After a long pause) No ! In a philosopher it is not

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Sri Aurobindo : As to the first point you write to him that it is the Higher Knowledge – its Jyoti – which illu­mines the mind. The distinction between mental will and the Higher Tapas-Shakti he cannot know at present as he has not been given the yoga which is practised here. For doing this yoga he has to decide finally what he intends to do when he goes out of jail. He may have to leave off his external activities. But that he must decide by referring to his inner being.

As to leaving everything for God I do not know what Ramakrishna may have meant. But I want him to under­stand that he ought not to decide by what Ramakrishna said, or what I say, but by what he feels within his own beings, in the inmost depth of his being.

What I feel is that A has mental ideas about spiritual things but does not seem to have turned his inner eye within himself. I do not want to call him away from the true demand of his inner being.

Disciple : A has been doing political work as you know! So, the question from him would be : What is the con­nection between yoga and the political work?

Sri Aurobindo : The present-day political activity is intensely Rajasic in its nature and its reconciliation with yoga is not easy. In fact, all those who took to this yoga had to give up political activity.

Disciple : Why should it be so? There is acceptance of life in this yoga, is there not?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, there is no rejection of life; you can say, life is accepted in this yoga. But we regard the inner life as more important, the outer only as an expression, a form, of it.

Disciple : Can one not take up the outer action – say political – in the yoga?

Sri Aurobindo : External action can also be taken up in this yoga but it must be in keeping with the inner life. The

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outside world regards all those who do this yoga here as "lost" to all work. But that is not the correct reading. It is not that we have no sympathy with the political aspirations of the country ; only, we can't go into them in the Rajasic way.

We leave it to the Higher Power to do what She likes.

Disciple : But you yourself did political work.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, I did it but it was done in the attitude I just now described – i.e. by leaving the work in the hands of the Higher Power.

Disciple : Suppose India accepts the Truth which the yoga wants to bring down into life?

Sri Aurobindo : If the Truth which the yoga wants to achieve is attained and if India accepts it, then it will give quite a new turn to Indian politics – different from European politics. It would be a profound change.

But that is a question which A will have to decide afterwards. For the present, A must find out why he wants the yoga, whether he has a call – a true call. And the second question is whether he has the capacity. I do not know about his capacity but he requires, I believe, a long preparation.

15-9-1925

Some questions were put to Sri Aurobindo about a Sadhaka who wanted to give Sadhana – initiation into Yoga to others. Both the Sadhakas were at Chittagong.

In reply Sri Aurobindo said :

i. X was never a great Sadhaka and that he is not fit to give Sadhana.

ii. X had some possibilities which were destroyed because of his vanity. He thought that he was a great Sadhaka and tried to pose as such.

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iii. X was self-willed and never used to pay atten­tion to the instructions sent to him from Pondicherry. He had one idea in his mind that everything that was coming to him was from Shakti or Kali, though he was repeatedly warned against it.

iv. He could not distinguish between what was true and what came to him from the vital and the lower world.

v. At present X is completely under the control of vital suggestions and hallucinations with the erotic impulse behind them and all his saying that he is doing what I tell him and that "my concentration helps him" is false. It is the explanation given by those lower powers to justify their ways to him.

This Yoga is not a Tantric Yoga and so I can't do anything about the process he follows. There are things in the vital world which are both true and false and the Sadhaka of this path has to distinguish between them. The Vital is a world full of lustre and colour and halluci­nation which try to ape the Supramental movements. As I said the other day, it cinematographs the higher movements. It is also full of power.

If he wants to do this Yoga he must begin again; make his mind and vital being calm, give up all the move­ments of the ego and aspire for the Truth and nothing but the Truth.

Instead of trying to push ahead in Sadhana, it is better to give time to the preparation for Yoga which is the preliminary purification of the Adhar – the nature-mould.

(There was silence for some time)

Then Sri Aurobindo resumed : It seems evident that X must have done some Sadhana in his previous life and must have acquired some powers then. He must have

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repressed his impulses and so they are having their satisfaction now.

Disciple : Was X brilliant before he began Yoga?

Sri Aurobindo : No. But after beginning it he showed mental capacity. Evidently, something opened up in him and his physical mind was not able to bear it. He might have been trying to set things right but when the uprush came he could not distinguish between the higher and the lower movements.

A letter from Y was read, containing "an analysis of Yoga".

Sri Aurobindo : It is not all nonsense, though he has put the things pell-mell.

It is very difficult to practise this Yoga if the outer instruments are not prepared to express the inner being. There are people who get something in their psychic being and immediately it tries to force its way out. But the outer members are not able to bear it and the whole thing breaks up.

Disciple : What will become of Y in his next life,-will his madness follow him?

Sri Aurobindo : He will have to work it out. The madness is working out sufficiently rapidly, so that he may begin next time with a better instrument.

Disciple : Would it be better, if he stopped these things?

Sri Aurobindo : In most people it is not the central being that finds expression. It is some minor personality which serves for the temporary purposes of life. The true central being is always behind.

Disciple : Can the central being never come up without Yoga?

Sri Aurobindo : Very few can know and express their central being without Yoga.

The vital appears brilliant and imitates the rapidity

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of the higher movement and creates false reflections of the Truth and can try to mislead the Sadhaka.

Disciple : Can it imitate the calm of the Supermind?

Sri Aurobindo : Oh yes. There are Asuric forces that are very calm. Do you think that the Asura is a fool ? Some­times, Tapasya is his chief weapon. Hiranya Kashipu and Ravana were great Tapaswis. Doing good to huma­nity is one of the favourite weapons of the Asura. Of course, he seeks to do it in his own Asuric way. The Asuri Maya can take up any garb: even the pursuit of an ideal or sacrifice for some principle !

4-10-1925

A letter from X's husband which raised certain general questions about the relation of man and woman in this yoga. He wants to exercise the conjugal right with his wife. Both have written to Sri Aurobindo, separately for guidance.

The husband's argument :

"Sri Aurobindo's yoga is not a yoga of renunciation and even if renunciation was to be carried out I shall carry it out gradually, I am not able to control myself. I want to know : What is the relation between man and woman in this yoga ?"

Sri Aurobindo replied :

"This is not a yoga of renunciation in the sense that one has not to reject life or the world externally. But that does not mean that one has to give room to lower forces and allow them full play in their lower forms.

"This is a yoga of rising into the Divine Nature from the lower nature. What that higher Nature is you will understand afterwards. You have to become fit for it. You can now see your lower nature; especially the vital play

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of Kama (lust) and Krodha (anger) etc – is essentially the Dharma – the functioning – of the animal man. You have to rise into the Divine Nature by rejecting the lower nature. How can you get the Divine Nature unless you conquer the nature of the animal-man in you ? The first step has been given to you : you must learn to separate yourself as the Purusha, and look unmoved at all the play of nature in you. You must externalise the play and see all its actions as outside yourself. You ought not to allow any mental justification for the play of the lower forces of the vital beings. The Shuddhi – purification – necessary in this yoga cannot be attained with the forces of lust and anger and there is no question of harbouring them."

Then Sri Aurobindo continued :

"In this matter, you must resort to simple thinking and simple action, leaving all mental complications and Shastric injunctions. You must not allow the intellect to play with them. Your ideas about Spastic injunctions are nothing else but justifications. Really it is the lower play of the vital being. In this rejection of the lower nature you ought to be ever alert – vigilant.

The ideal relation between man and woman in this yoga you cannot at present understand. You have, first, to make yourself fit for it. Your own ideas of married life and Shastra etc. are dangerous and if you follow these ideas there is every chance of your fall from the yoga. All of them are mental constructions. The first thing in a case where both man and woman are aspirants is to help each other in Sadhana, the spiritual effort. They must exchange their forces and help each other to rise into the Higher Consciousness.

Secondly, there is the question of love. What most People call 'love' is a superficial thing and mostly bound up with the vital craving of lust. That has to be completely rejected.

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There is a relation deeper than that : it is of the Soul. That relation comes from within by itself. It manifests itself in both as an ideal oneness – oneness in mind, oneness of the soul, oneness of self. That relation is Shanta, full of peace, wide, pure – pavitra. In it there is no trace of vital lust and physical craving. There is also possible a relation of Purusha and Shakti between man and woman. But that relation is not social, it is not ordinary. Because one is married to a certain woman it does not follow that his wife is necessarily his Shakti.

So long as these relations are not understood and expe­rienced by you another possible relation is that of friends. That is to say, you ought to live with your wife just as you would with a friend who has the same aim of life, without any other relation than that of friendship.

You must remove the misunderstanding from your mind about your wife that she does not love you, etc. She has an aspiration for the yoga and therefore she wants to reject all the lower play of nature from herself and from you. You ought not to press her or induce her to fall from the path of yoga. If you can't control yourself you should live separately and fight your nature.

You write about passivity and activity : you have to understand and know what they are. When one begins yoga, naturally, all the forces on the mental – and especially on the vital-plane, that are hostile to the Siddhi of this yoga, are bound to rise and one must be active in rejecting them – what the Gita calls apramatta – because the Purusha is not only sāksi – the witness – but anumantā – one who gives consent. This activity of rejection must be always there. Even if you fall you must rise up again and again and fight.

Passivity merely means a calm inactive attitude of mind keeping it open to the higher influence and ready to accept the light, power, knowledge, Ananda that come from Above.

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It, must be a prayerful mood so that the knowledge may come down. When the higher knowledge comes one ought not to allow the mind to get active with it, but must allow that knowledge to come more and more by keeping the mind passive.

Both passivity and activity are legitimate movements of this yoga in the beginning. The highest, the true passi­vity will, of course, come afterwards. If you remain passive now, you will open yourself to all sorts of influences and accept all kinds of suggestions, ideas etc. coming from outside – from the universal nature. You will mistake them for those coming from the higher Power."

7-10-1925

(Two letters containing some questions about Sadhana-spiritual practice were received.)

Sri Aurobindo : It is no use X trying to have the current of force at present. The Supramental yoga is out of his reach at present. He seems to be puzzled as to what is "life" and what is "action". It does not mean only "marriage" and "earning". He does not understand that Karma-yoga – yoga of action – does not .require any vast field. It is not necessary to become a prime-minister or a millio­naire to do Karma yoga.

He speaks of Raja yoga-but in Raja yoga also a certain purification of nature is required which is done by Yama and Niyama before the aspirant can succeed in meditation and attain Samadhi.

In this yoga also something similar is to be done, though in a different manner. He has, first, to try to understand his own nature and get rid of egoistic motives from his actions and of desires from the vital being. He must try to acquire Samata – equality and Sattwic

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balance. That is to say, he should reject lower motives and learn to act from higher motives and with a Sattwic temperament. All our actions proceed from a certain inner attitude and he has to see whether he can change the motive of desire for a higher one.

He can read the first few chapters of the Essays on the Gita and try to understand Karma yoga. Some sort of Karma yoga is the best preparation for this yoga. He cannot get the current of the higher Power now; he must make himself fit for the higher Power. The Real Shakti – Power cannot come unless the Adhar – the receptacle – is purified. She can force the way, but in that case there will be all confusion and Adhar may break.

9-10-1925

In a letter the question raised was: “Is not all action incompatible with Sri Aurobindo’s yoga?

Sri Aurobindo : His idea that all action if incompatible with this yoga is not correct. Generally, it is found that all Rajasic activity does not go well with this yoga: for instance, political work.

The reasons for abstaining from political activity are:

1. Being Rajasic in its nature, it does not allow that quiet and knowledge on the basis of which the work should really proceed. All action requires a certain inner formation, an inner detached being. The formation of this inner being requires one to dive into the depth of the being, get the true Being and then prepare the true Being to come to the surface. It is then that one acquires a poise – an inner poise – and can act from there. Political work by Rajasic activity which draws the being outwards prevents this inner formation.

2. The political field, together with certain other fields, is the stronghold of the Asuric-forces. They have

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their eye on this yoga, and they would try to hamper the Sadhana by every means. By taking to the political field you get into a plane where these forces hold the field. The possibility of attack in that field is much greater than in others. These Asuric forces try to lead away the Sadhaka from the path by increasing Kama and Krodha – desire and anger, and such other Rajasic impulses. They may throw him permanently into the sea of Rajasic activity.

He asks about the synthesis between Sadhana and action. In this yoga such a synthesis is not necessary in the beginning. The Sadhak – aspirant – in general, opens himself alternately to the higher Power and to the ordinary life. It goes on like that for a long time. Then comes a time when the two powers oppose each other and then the need for synthesis arises.

But is the difficulty is only intellectual then it need not be solved now. In this yoga intellect is not the chief instrument, – experience is primary. Of course, there is the intellectual side of yoga which the mind of the Sadhak must grasp as it would be helpful to him. But it is the experience which is the most important thing.

12-10-1925

In a letter from Allahabad a question was asked: “Do you find that you are more energetic after practicing yoga than you were when you appeared for the I.C.S. examination?”

Sri Aurobindo, turning to a disciple, asked the same question in a general form.

Disciple : I find that my experience is, perhaps, not encouraging.

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Sri Aurobindo : Does it mean that you are less energetic now than before you began Sadhana?

He turned to another disciple : “What do you say?"

Disciple : I find that it is not possible to put forth energy in the old way.

Sri Aurobindo : My experience is quite the reverse. I feel ten times more energetic than ever I was before yoga.

Disciple : Are there times in Sadhana when one finds the energy flagging?

Sri Aurobindo : That is due to Tamas – inertia. The question is not of Tamas coming up. Even if Tamas came, why should the energy be absent?

Disciple : There are times when one can't put forth energy as one used to do.

Sri Aurobindo : That may be temporary.

Disciple : Did you find in your case a steady increase of energy with the practice of yoga?

Sri Aurobindo : No, not steady. I was more energetic when I was working in politics than I had been before; when I took up yoga I was more energetic than I had been in politics.

Disciple : There are times when one cannot do work that is expected of one.

Sri Aurobindo : Of course, one can't do what others demand of one. The question is whether you have the energy, never mind in what way it is put forth. For instance, in that house just before I began the Arya there was a period of six months in which there was a continual spiritual experience and I could not do any writing at that time. But that does not mean I was less energetic.

I could not have written the 64 pages of the Arya before without flagging. I give another instance : now I do not find it possible to make speeches as before. If I am asked to make speeches I would find myself very unenergetic.

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Disciple : But you are making a speech once in the year!

Sri Aurobindo : That is not a speech! And even that I am doing because X expects me to speak!

Disciple : So you are doing it under compulsion!

Sri Aurobindo : Almost! I would prefer to be silent!

Disciple : We know that; this time we have to thank Y.

Sri Aurobindo : 0! I see, because he gave the points.

Disciple : I want to ask you one question : is instinct higher than Reason?

Sri Aurobindo : In what sense?

Disciple : In the sense that it is pure that is, unmixed, direct, and automatic.

Sri Aurobindo : It is true within certain limits. The animal instinct is limited to a particular purpose. It is something ingrained in the being, something that is handed down to a particular species.

Disciple : There is a report on the behaviour of rats, in an American publication. It describes how the rats attacked a hanging shelf full of eggs, formed a chain to drop them down and how they carried away all the eggs.

Sri Aurobindo : This may shock some people – but the ordinary idea about the animals is, of course, absurd. They are much nearer to man than is generally supposed.

Disciple : I was asking about this kind of instinct.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not "instinct" at all, it is intelligence.

Disciple : But the animals have no intelligence.

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean? They have as much intelligence as men have. The behaviour and action of the rats just now described is a work of intelligence,

I told you, perhaps, how the other day I saw a spider. He wanted to balance his cobweb against some weight in order to support it. He put a blade first, but found it was not heavy enough. So he went down and brought a small piece of gravel and with it balanced the web. Now, you can't call this instinct. It is intelligence. What we

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can say is that the animals have not got developed mind. We can call this intelligence vital intelligence or vital mind. It works very correctly within limits. But if you take the animal out of the field, in which its instinct is unerring, you will find that it stumbles even more than the rational mind.

The reason why the animal mind thinks correctly is that the animals have not got the struggle between the vital and the mental being as man has got.

21-10-1925

The talk turned on the content of a letter by a Sadhika – lady Sadhaka – who said in her letter that her husband was trying to justify the lower sexual impulse by quoting Shastra and also by saying that Sadhana ought to be done through Bhoga – enjoyment. He also complained that Sri Aurobindo's yoga was more rigorous than even the path of Sannyas – renunciation. He argued : "What is the use of a relation between man and woman if there is no sexual enjoyment?”

Sri Aurobindo : Tell her that the true relation between man and woman cannot be understood by them. They must advance a great deal before they can understand it. It is no use trying to understand it intellectually.

She must go on with her own Sadhana without caring to lift her husband. If he has something genuine in him he will come up. Everything depends upon him so far as he is concerned. He has something in him which is turned to yoga but his vital being requires great purification. He has been given quite elementary practice – abhyāsa. He is asked to watch his nature as the Purusha – the witness – and to reject the play of the lower nature. He can also seek help from above.

The element in his vital nature trying to justify the

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lower impulses by reasons and arguments is very dangerous.

2-11-1925

A letter from a gentleman putting questions about the Jivātman and the Paramātman and their relation and also about the experience of the Supermind.

Sri Aurobindo : (with a smile) : You can ask him to read all the issues of the Arya where he will find solutions of all his questions.

Disciple : But he may say he does not know English!

Sri Aurobindo : Then he can wait till he has learnt it! (Laughter)

There was talk about the translation in Marathi of Yoga and its Objects. Sri Aurobindo was told some details about it.

Sri Aurobindo : I have no objection to my books being translated if they are written by people who know how to write.

Disciple : Unfortunately your books are like no man's land. This writer believes the refrain or burden of the book to be "Yoga is for humanity".

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, I think many people would be sorely disappointed if they came to know that I had already outgrown that "humanity-stage". It is one of the great illusions.

Disciple : But, then, would nothing be done for humanity?

Disciple : He says it is a big illusion, don't you see?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it is one of the most powerful Sattwic illusions which people have. It has a very great hold.

Disciple : Do you mean to say that nothing can be done for humanity?

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Sri Aurobindo : Why should anything be done?

Disciple : (to another) Do you feel left out as one of humanity? (Laughter)

Disciple : You are not outside the pale of humanity!

Sri Aurobindo : It is not the question whether one can do anything for humanity. The question is whether anything can be done? The difficulty is that people expect huma­nity to change by some sort of miracle into something which is not humanity.

Disciple : Not by a miracle.

Sri Aurobindo : Wouldn’t you think it a miracle if all the 1500 or more millions of people that are living on the earth could be changed into something that is superhumanity?

Disciple : It would be a miracle, if it could be done.

Sri Aurobindo : Imagine the whole of humanity from Bernard Shaw to the maid servant being changed into something which is not humanity.

Disciple : But, then, do you think that humanity is not moving at all and that there has been no evolution up till now?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't say that. Humanity is moving itself. The only difficulty is that it has a tendency to come back to its starting point again and again! (Laughter)

Disciple : Suppose this time we succeed in the yoga and the Supermind comes down into the physical, I do not expect it in one day but in course of time.

Sri Aurobindo : You mean Kalpas – cycles – afterwards? Even then, do you suppose that the whole human race will be transformed suddenly into the Supramental race?

Disciple : In that case nothing can be done for humanity. One can only write books for humanity.

Sri Aurobindo : I don't say that nothing is, or can be, done for humanity. What I say is that there is nothing radically altered, no fundamental change in humanity, in spite of all that has been done.

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Time after time something comes down from above, hut again you find humanity the same as ever. Look at Christianity, all the millions in Europe who profess it. Do you think they believe in Christianity? Not even ten percent try to live out Christianity. That is the difficulty with humanity. Something comes down from Above. In order to make it available to the whole community you have to give it such a form as to make it suitable to all capacities and in that change the Truth gets mixed with their falsehood – so much so that it no longer re­mains what it was. Buddha came and tried and did not succeed, and I think any effort would not succeed.

Disciple : Anatole France seems to hold that humanity is what it is and is going to be what it is. Perfection may come to man but humanity will remain what it is. True perfection is possible but it would be in something that is different from man.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, you can give a religion or create a sect and be a prophet or something of the kind. But nothing will be really done.

Disciple : But when the Supermind comes down do you think that there would be no connection between man and superman?

Sri Aurobindo : I don't say there would be no connection. There is no reason why there should be no relation.

Disciple : But we want also to change human nature.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, but, as is now admitted, such a radical change cannot be done in the human being. We can also call man the "Mental being", though it is a complement which the average man does not deserve as he is hardly a "mental being." All the same we can say "human con­sciousness" or "the mental consciousness". As a radical change in this mental consciousness cannot be brought about by the mind, we want to change it by something which is not mind, we call it Supermind. As man is

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removed from the animal, so would be the Superman from man.

Disciple : Would the Superman be as far from man as man from the monkey?

Sri Aurobindo : What do you mean by "monkey”?

Disciple : The stage of consciousness before man evolved.

Sri Aurobindo : That does not seem to be the accepted theory now. They say that the monkey and ourselves are cousins. All the same I should like that man would be nearer to Superman than the animal is to man.

Disciple : It would mean that Supermind would work for humanity.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not exactly for humanity, it is for some­thing which is more than humanity. It is bringing about a change from humanity to super-humanity. Of course, that change is to come in, and from humanity, it is not to drop from heaven. But it would create something quite different from man.

Disciple : Would not such a change require a change in man's physical form?

Sri Aurobindo : I can't say. But I can say this that it would necessitate a change in the physical functions; they would have all to be transformed. Otherwise, this stupid body of man would be incapable of holding the Supramental Power.

Disciple : Yes, it is always constipated! (Laughter)

Then the questions were raised :

1. The nature of the Supramentalised body. 2. The nature of the economic organisation in the life of Supermen. About the second question Sri Aurobindo made a humorous remark : "In the Supramental economic organisation you would not ex­pect X to go and fish on the pier at Pondicherry."

About the first he said. "This question about the nature of the Supramental body was answered by Thèon. He was

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in France at that time he said the Supramental body would be a "body of light" – " crops glorieux." He had a number of Disciples some of whom were mathematicians and scientists. One of them brought the solution one day that the body of the Superman would be a sphere! Thèon said : "It may be, but it would be very inconvenient if people want to kiss each other!" (Laughter)

Disciple : Jokes apart, I want to know whether the human body would not cast its imperfection on the manifestation of the Spirit ? Would not the Supermind require another form?

Sri Aurobindo : Another physical form may not be required. What I can say, at present, is that all the physical functions would have to be transformed. The present physical body is "stupid" compared to what is required of it for Supramentalisation.

26-12-1925

There was a letter from a Sadhaka at Chittagong des­cribing his experience and asking for guidance.

Sri Aurobindo : You can write to him that the idea prevalent, but mistaken, at Chittagong is that yoga means seeing visions and that it is something mysterious and miraculous, or receiving suggestions. This is a great mistake. The aim of yoga is not seeing visions but to change the conscious­ness.

There are many kinds of visions. Some visions are only images, some are forms taken by our vital desires, or they are images of mental thoughts. Often they are our own creations; they do not correspond to any Truth. True visions are very rare and they can't be com­pletely understood unless one had the right discernment and great purity in the being. I would like all people

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interested in our yoga to understand this thing. Such visions as they have been seeing obviously show that they are creations of their vital desires that have taken form. Such visions have no value whatever from the point of view of Sadhana. In yoga one has to be prepared for dry work which is very necessary : the purification of the entire being and then discipline of self-mastery and self-control. He must reject those false visions. He must aspire for some more solid things.

There was reference made to Sri Aurobindo about the marriage of a girl who was the sister of a Disciple.

Sri Aurobindo : It seems she wants to marry; in that case it is no use trying to restrain her artificially, or trying to foist Sadhana on her when she is not willing.

Let her choose out of the three proposals. About yoga, if she has a call – a deep call – it will last and assert itself. It can never be lost. On the contrary, an artificial demand for Sadhana created by external pressure may be very bad for her. It may not last and would easily give way before the demands of the ordinary life and its impulses.

There was nothing of general interest during the interval. Some events may be noted :

1. A false wire from Krishnashashi informing Sri Aurobindo that he was dead under the signature of "Jyoti," was received. This was contradicted by Mohini from Chittagong.

2. A Disciple from Madras sent a copy of the “Theosophist”. It contained lectures and the latest declaration by Mrs. Besant : Krishna Murty's avatarhood and the descent of the world-teacher in him :

Disciple : Did you read the "Theosophist?''

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Sri Aurobindo : Yes, I made an unsuccessful effort. What she used to write before was readable and had some power. But this is rather hopeless.

Disciple : Did you read the book containing the account of so many past lives?

Sri Aurobindo : I know those visions. They are just what our Chittagong people are getting, they are full of imaginations. They are not visions that come to one, but those which one creates for one's self by pressure. One man told me that “I have to close my eyes and begin to imagine I am in another's body and I shall be at once in that plane. I tried it once and saw it is very easy. You can construct the history of the world from the remotest past without much difficulty.''

Disciple : Do these people do any Sadhana?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, in their own way. But if a descent of a great Truth is to take place there must be a very solid preparation to hold it. That is a more important work than holding up somebody as the Avatar.

22-2-1926

A letter from Subhas Chandra Bose to Dilip Kumar Roy appeared in the "Pravartak" of Chandernagore. Subhash remarked in it that "though he had great respect for Vivekananda he considers Sri Aurobindo – "gabhir" deeper than the former. In the letter he accepts Sri Aurobindo as a genius and a great Dhyani, but he thinks that too long remaining away from what is called "active life" tends to one-sided development and may help some few to become Supermen, but for the generality of men he would prefer the path of service and work.

This letter was read out by a Disciple. Sri Aurobindo heard it and was glad that it was short.

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Sri Aurobindo : I met X to-day and he told me that Madame Y who is a Theosophist and has some experiences in yoga on the mental level is coming to India from France. She has an idea of regenerating India by settling some spiritually-minded Europeans in India.

She has got an illusion of work and many Europeans have got the same. They think that they can do spiritual work, with their ideas they come to India and get lost in the ocean that is India and fail to achieve anything substantial. They don't make any impression and even if something is done it is lost out of recognition after some time – you can't recognise what it was.

He continued : For ordinary men work is, of course, necessary, but one who wants to do "divine work" must pre­pare himself. He must learn to be "an instrument" first. All these Europeans have to learn that the work they take up is only a preparation for the divine work. They must know that it is not any mentally constructed work to which they must obstinately stick, if they want to be the instruments of God.

For instance, all these tall ideas like Madame Y's about regenerating India and taking up big schemes and being regarded as big workers and saviours have got a fascina­tion. One who wants to do the divine work must learn to forget the difference between important and unimpo­rtant work, – small work and great work – till the work that is intended is found by him.

Disciple : She would profit spiritedly only if she learnt from her work and her experience. India has got her own Dharma and work for her has to be done in keeping with her Dharma.

Sri Aurobindo : She has another mania : getting inspiration for her work. I explained to X that it is not inspiration that comes always. You can drag down what your mind has chosen; your desire or your own idea, your impulse

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or even your own mental preference can reflect itself like that, and appear to you as coming from Above. One who wants to do divine works must first attain to spiritual perfection. If one is sincere then generally he profits by such work. For instance, such a man will submit his inspi­ration to the test of hard physical experience. If it is found true there then it is true. But if the inspiration fails to come true in life then one can set himself on the right path if one is sincere. But what people generally do is that if the inspiration fails they get another and then another explaining each one away to themselves.

There are people who follow up their intuition or inspiration and turn out solid work like J. C. Bose.

Disciple : At the time of the non-cooperation Dr. P. C. Ray came forward enthusiastically and joined themove­ment. But J. C. Bose said that if he was to do service to India he could only do it through his scientific work.

Some medical students left their studies, went to work in the villages and came back within a short time shorn of all emotional enthusiasm.

Sri Aurobindo : What do they mean by village organisation? Have they any idea? They always cite the example of Russia, but they don't know how the Russians worked.

If you want to work in the villages you must leave off all idea that it will be done very soon. It is a very laborious work. It can't be done by lecturing. Political agitation has its own law – solid work has its own law. Our people mix up the two things. Political agitation requires you to put up a new idea before the public; then you go on hammering out that idea, wait till it catches the public's imagination and gets connected with its vital interest. Then you wait for the psychological movement when you can get your objective. It is useful in a nation'slife

But solid work is quite different. In Russiathe

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workers settled invillages, some as doctors, some as teachers doing their work and trying to raise thelife there, bringing new light and new awakening. It is to be done slowly. The idea that somehow it will get done in a year or two – like "Swaraj in one year" – isegoistic ignorance. Solid work is to be done under the law of the physical plane. The Russians waited patiently for years together and then their organisation got slowly recognised by the Government and then after along waiting came the Revolution.

How do you expect villagers to trust every young irresponsible man who claims to do good to them? If you go on working for years then you may get into their confidence and may be able to achieve something. All these ideas of theatrical success and lightning flash-like work are most impracticable. You have to stick on to your work through all difficulties. It requires patience.

Disciple : At Sajod, in Broach District of Gujarat, educated young men have gone and settled in the villages and after nearly 15 years they are able to inspire confidence in the villagers about their work.

Sri Aurobindo : That is the only way if one wants to work in the villages. Then only a new life can gradually grow in them. They can then combine into organised units.

23-3-1926

K wrote a letter to S containing an account of his Sadhana after receiving Sri Aurobindo's last letter. In his letter to S he sent some questions to be answered by Sri Aurobindo to which no reply was sent for many days. Whenever Sri Aurobindo was reminded he said, "I am not inclined to lecture on the psychic being.

To-day he inquired whether there were any important letters unanswered. He was told about K's letter.

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Sri Aurobindo : Do you want me to lecture on the psychic being?

Disciple : Some general hints may be given, if you like.

Then Sri Aurobindo dictated the following by way of reply :

"Firstly, when the psychic awakens you grow conscious of your own soul, you know your true being. You no longer commit the mistake of identifying yourself with the mental or the vital being, you do not mistake them for the soul.

Secondly, when it is awakened, the psychic being gives the Sadhaka the true Bhakti, devotion, for God or for the Guru. That devotion is quite different from mental and vital devotion.

In the mind one may have admiration for the intel­lectual ideas of someone, or one may have mental appre­ciation for some great intellect. But if it is merely mental, it does not carry matters very far, it is not sufficient by itself. It does not open the whole of the inner being; it only establishes a mental contact. Of course, there is no harm in having that. When K came here he had that mental admiration for what I have written in the Arya. One can get something from that kind of mental contact, but it is not what one can get by being in relation with the psychic being. I do not, for a moment, want to suggest that there was no truth in his Bhakti, but there was much mixture in it and even what was mental and vital was very much exaggerated;

When he began the yoga he had certain capacities. Of course, he was not half as tall as he thought himself to be. But if he had not exaggerated his capacities he would have been, by this time farther than he is to-day.

The vital devotion demands and demands. It imposes its own conditions. It says to God : "You are so great, therefore I worship you; and now satisfy this desire at condition of mine; make me great; make me a

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great Sadhaka, a great Yogin, etc. It does not use this language of course, but that is what is behind it. It assumes many justifying forms and comes to the Sadhaka in various ways.

The unillumined Mind also surrenders to the Truth but it makes its own conditions. It says to the Truth “Satisfy my judgment and my opinions." It demands that the truth should cast itself in mental forms. The vital being insists that the truth should throw itself into its own movement of force. The vital being pulls at the higher Power; it pulls at the vital being of the Guru. Both the mind and the vital beings have got an arrière pensèe – a mental reservation in their surrender.

But the psychic Bhakti is not like that. Because the soul is in connection with the Divinity behind, it is capable of true Bhakti. The psychic being has what is called Ahaituki Bhakti, Devotion without any motive. It does not make any .demands, it makes no reservations in its surrender.

The psychic being knows how to obey the Truth in the right way. It can give itself up fully to God or to the Guru; and because it gives itself up truly it receives also truly.

When the psychic being comes to the surface it feels sad when the mental, or the vital being, is making a fool of itself. That sadness is purity offended. When the mind is playing its own game, or when the vital being is carried away by its impulses, it is the psychic being which says “I do not want these things; what am I here for, after all? I am here for the Truth and not for these things," Psychic sadness is again different from mental dissatisfaction or vital sadness or physical depression.

If the psychic being is strong it makes itself felt in the mental and the vital being, and forces them to change. But if it is weak, the mental and the vital parts take

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advantage of its sadness and use it even to their own advantage. A weak psychic being is often an affliction.

Take the case of X. He has a well-developed intel1ectual being, but his vital is often quite different in its character. At times the psychic being in his case used to force itself to the surface and throw everything into disorder. In Y's case it was the vital being that dictated to the psychic being. To the protests of the psychic being the vital says : "yes, yes, what you say is all right, but I am also right and what I do is right and necessary."

When the psychic being is weak it casts only an in­fluence occasionally and then retires behind.

Disciple : But you said just now that the psychic being knows everything and is in communication with the Truth, then why should it be weak? Why can it not force the other parts of nature to obey it?

Sri Aurobindo : If the psychic being is not fully awake, it does not come to the surface. It is very much behind in most people, and when it cannot come fully to the surface I call it "weak," not that the psychic, being itself is weak. It has got everything in it, but when it can't bring it for­ward it is called weak.

Disciple : Is the psychic being the same as what is called Atman – the Self?

Sri Aurobindo : The Atman generallymeans what you apply in English by the word "Spirit". It is self-existent, conscious, theānandamaya Being, the Purusha. The Atman is the same in all; it is that which is behind all the manifestation of Nature.

Disciple : Has it any features?

Sri Aurobindo : It has no features. The only thing that can be said about it is : Sat, Chit, Anand.

Disciple : Does it indicate the passive or the active state of the Being?

Sri Aurobindo : Generally it is used to imply the passive

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state, but sometimes it is used for both. The psychic being is not the same as the Atman. It is what corresponds to the European idea of "Soul". TheWestern occultists recognise, at least they used to recognise, three things : 1. Spirit, 2. Soul, 3. Body. The Spirit corresponds to the Atman, and the Soul to the psychic being. It is the ,Purusha hrdaye,, guh,āyām, "the Soul in the cave of the heart".

Disciple : Is the "a,n,gu,,stha mātra,h purus,ah,", spoken of in the Upanishad the same as the psychic being?

Sri Aurobindo : It may be. I think the psychic being was meant by the phrase, “Iśvarah sarvabhūtānām hr,ddeśe ” the Lord seated in the heart of creatures"

Disciple : Is not the psychic being the direct portion of the Divine here? If so, is it the same as the Jiva?

Sri Aurobindo : The Jiva is something more than the psychic being. The psychic being is behind the heart; while the Jiva is high above, connected with the Central Being. It is that which on every level of consciousness becomes the Purusha, the Prakriti and the personalities of Nature. The psychic being, one may say, is the Soul-personality. The psychic being most purely reflects the Divine in the lower triplicity of mind, life and body. There are four higher levels : Sat, Chit, Ananda and Vijnana; they are in Knowledge while below in the three levels – mind, life and body – there is a mixture of Ignorance and knowledge. The psychic being is behind these three – mind, life and body; it is most open to the higher Truth; that is why it is indispensable for the manifestation of the Divine.

The psychic being alone can open itself completely to the Truth. This is so because the movements of the lower parts – mind, life and body – are full of defects, errors and mixturesand,howeversincere they may be and however they may try to transform themselves into the movements of the Truth, they cannot do it unless the psychic being comes to their help. Of course,

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these lower parts have their own sincerity.

When the psychic being awakens it becomes easy for the Sadhaka to distinguish from within between truth and falsehood, and also to throw out from the nature any wrong movement.

You may write to K one more point : "The psychic being refuses to be deceived by appearances. It is not carried away by falsehood. It refuses to be depressed by falsehood, nor does it exaggerate the Truth of what it sees. For example, even if everybody in the world around says : “There is no God", the psychic being refuses to believe it. It only says : "I know and also, I know because I feel."

As I said, the psychic being is behind the emotional being in the heart, and when it is awakened it throws out the dross from the emotional being and makes it free from sentimentalism and the lower play of vital emo­tions. But that is not the dryness of the mind, nor the exaggeration of the vital feelings, it gives the just touch to each emotion.

Disciple : Could one say that in the planes of consciousness above the mind all is the same – the psychic being and the Atman etc.?

Sri Aurobindo : If you mean : "Everything is One" then it merely comes to the old Adwaitavada of Shankaracharya. Really speaking, it is not a matter for the mind to decide. It is a matter of experience. In a certain experience you find that "All is One" and Shankara is true. But there are other experiences in which the Vishishtadwaita and even the Dwaita – the dualistic idea – finds justification. Mind only cuts, differentiates, analyses, represents. You can't push these questions too far with the mind, otherwise you bring in the old quarrel of the philosophers. You can't say : "It is that", or "It must be like this", or "'It can't be anything else;" for, It may

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be all these things at the same time. You can't approach the highest with thought and express it in speech. Of course, you can express it, but then you diminish it also.

True knowledge is not attained by thinking. It is what you are; it is what you become, that is to say, you have the knowledge because you are That. That is the reason why I insist on the attainment of the Supermind as the condition for the experience of the highest Truth because the mind cannot really know it. In the Supermind thoughts convey different aspects of the same Truth, – so different, indeed, that the first aspect is the diametri­cally opposite of the last – and they are all thrown into the One.

If you have the knowledge by identity you can easily get at my thoughts and my meaning. But I find that the same thing spoken to all carries a different meaning to each.

(The subject was continued at lunch-time)

Sri Aurobindo : In the letter you can explain to K what the psychic feelings are. They are not the same as what ordinarymenexperience as sentiments and feelings. For example, the ordinary sentimental pity is not the same as what is called "psychic compassion". The latter is a much deeper compassion than pity. So also psychic love is not the same as what generally passes for love. There is an unselfishness in psychic love; it is always free from all demands – it has no vital claims. Even psychic unselfishness is not the same as the ordinary unselfishness. There is an unselfishness which plays on the surface and shows itself off. It becomes philanthropy – paropkāra. But the psychic counterpart of it sees the need of the other person and just satisfies it.

Lastly, lest he should think that the psychic being is something weak and inert. Let him understand that

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the presiding Deity – theadhisthātā devatā – of the psychic plane is Agni, Fire. It is the Divine Fire of aspi­ration. When the psychic being is awakened the God of the plane is also awakened. And even if the whole being is impure it is this Agni – Fire – which intervenes, removes the obstacles in the way and consumes all the impurities of the being.

21-8-1926

There was a letter from a political prisoner who argued with a Sadhaka here about "work" and Sadhana. He pleaded that work should be done as Sadhana and that one could get perfection through work. He quoted theGita : "Yogah karmasu kauśalam".

Sri Aurobindo : So he thinks that "Kaushalam" in Karma – "Cleverness or efficiency in doing action" – is yoga; does he? In that case any clever man, say, an expert financier, must be a yogi !

We also thought once when we were doing work that perfection would one day come through "action" and we found that it was not possible. We had to give up action in that sense. It does not mean that we give up all action. All of us are doing something or the other here. We have to do action as a sort of exercise – not for its own sake, but as a help to the inner growth.

Disciple : What are the limits of such work?

Sri Aurobindo : The limit is that the work ought not to be allowed to interfere with your yoga. Suppose you take up a work which leaves no time for Sadhana you can't take it up. That is to say, a work which demands all your attention and energy which you have to do as a "Kartavya”

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– "something that should be done" – that work cannot be undertaken by you.

Then there are works that have got a different Dharma; for example, politics. It is on a different plane and you can't do it successfully with this yoga.

In this yoga you have to be prepared to cut your­self away from what you consider "your" work and "your" "creation, when necessary; you have to be merciless in throwing old things away. That is really the meaning of "Nishkama Karma" – that you must have no attach­ment to anything.

Disciple : Does not a stage come when it becomes necessary to give up all action?

Sri Aurobindo : You cannot make a general rule like that. Some may have to give up all action temporarily, but for others it may not be necessary at all. I, myself, have been doing work constantly through the Arya and other things. And I stopped the Arya when I found that I had to put myself out to much, – so to say, externalise too much. The second reason was that I required to be drawn within myself in order to develop certain experiences, so that the energy might be used for inward work. In a certain sense I can say that I never stopped doing work – even political work.

Disciple : In a sense! In what sense? I want to have some idea about it.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not so difficult as you think; one can put out his force to support certain movements and oppose others.

Disciple : Is that work confined to India?

Sri Aurobindo : It was confined to India in the beginning but now it is hot confined to India.

At first I was not very successful, – very often it seemed to produce no result at all and I found that the work was done afterwards in quite another way than what I

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had expected or insisted. The same result came but it arrived in another way. The reason, probably,was that I used to put too much vital force with the Power. Of course, the vital is quite essential, but now it is pure and subtle vital force.

Disciple : You did it for what purpose – as something necessary, or as an exercise?

Sri Aurobindo : It was shown as something that was to be done. It was not from the Supermind, of course. If it was from there then the full knowledge would be there from the beginning. I did not know what was going to happen. I simply was shown the thing that was to be done and did it.

Disciple : How did you come to know that a certain thing is to be done?

Sri Aurobindo : Through the Higher Mind.

Disciple : Are there movements or persons, through whom you are working in Indian politics?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. At one time it was X; even I worked through Y for a short time.

Disciple : Did you work upon the course of events of the (first) world-war?

Sri Aurobindo : It was so difficult to have sympathy with either side. But it would have been a great disaster if Germany had won.

Disciple : How? Indians wished Germany to win.

Sri Aurobindo : It was merely due to their hatred of the British. When the Germans were marching upon Paris I felt something saying, "They must not take Paris.” And as I was consulting a map I almost felt the place where they would be stopped.

It is curious that several things that my mind was hammering at got done after I had dropped the idea altogether. At one time I had an idea that France must

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get back Alsace-Lorraine. It was almost an obsession with me and when I had ceased to think about it, thing got done.

Disciple : Can it be due to the element of desire in working ?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. You must have desire. There is no question of "success" also. There is a certain possibility and you have to make an attempt to work it out dis­interestedly like a yogi.

Disciple : What about Russia ? It seems to have gone the wrong way.

Sri Aurobindo : How do you mean ? It has gone the way that was intended. There is nothing good or bad, or moral or immoral. The question is : "Was it intended? It may be accompanied by so many results good, bad and indifferent. The question is : “What is intended by the Above ?"

The experience of humanity would have remained incomplete withouttheexperiment in Russia. Now they have got the form. It depends upon the Russians what they will do with it.

I find it always difficult to work in Indian politics. The difficulty is that the vessels don't hold the Power, they are so weak. If the amount of force that is spent on India were spent on a European nation you would find it full of creative activities of various kinds. But here, in India, it is like sending a current of electricity through a sleeping man. He suddenly starts up, begins jerking and throwing his arms and feet about and drops down again. He is not fully awake.

Disciple : What is it due to?

Sri Aurobindo : Due to tremendous Tamas. Don't you feel it all around, that Tamas? It is that which frustrates efforts.

Disciple : What has brought it about ?

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Sri Aurobindo : It is the result of various causes. It was already settling – I mean, the forces of disintegration and inertia before the British came. And after their coming the whole Tamas has settled like asolid block. There must be some awakening before something substantial can be done. Otherwise, Indiahas got very good men; you had Tilak, Das, Vivekananda – none of them an ordinary man and yet you see the Tamas there.

Disciple : Is there any truth in the idea that every great Vibhuti who brings anything new into manifestation builds, first of all, what is called Yogapitha – "a seat of yoga" ! Each man who goes by his path reaches that "yogapitha" and each Sadhaka has his place there. When once suchaPitha – pedestal – ismadethen anyone who comes afterwards finds it very easy to reach it because there is a passage already made.

Sri Aurobindo : I can tell you I am building nothing over there. I do not know what is to come. If there is anything in the Supramental I don't know it. You are not always allowed to know it. It is a plane where you find "what is" – there is no necessity to build or construct anything there.

I know some people make such constructions as the "Yoga-pitha and so on. One can always find these things, because many things from the mental plane are always trying to realise themselves here. These constructions are generally on the mental plane and they may even have some truth behindthem – notintheformsand constructions themselves. But even where there is some truth behind them it gets mixed up with many other things which sometimes falsifies the truth behind it.

Disciple : Perhaps all sorts of vital forces come and take advantage of it.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes it is for this reason that I am not for rushing to work at once. Such a thing would not be the

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expression of the Truth. We have to wait till the Truth through us finds its own expression. I myself got the idea of the Supramental after ten years of Sadhana. The Supramental does not come in the beginning but at the end. It is a progressive Truth.

Disciple : Do you remember a vision Vibhuti Babu once had?

Sri Aurobindo : No.

Disciple : He saw a yogapuri – a city of yoga – in which there were different circles of Sadhaks round a Guru in the centre of each group. Vibhuti wanted to join the circle but he was not allowed because he had not the "pass-word". There were watchmen also.

Sri Aurobindo : It looks more of the vital plane than anything else. There are people who get symbolic vision and when they see the work not accomplished they generally see it as an unfinished building, or a building where workmen are still working. That does not correspond to any build­ing in the Supramental. That is only a symbolic way of representing the yoga and its condition and even at that it is not exact but gives only a general idea.Z

Do you refer to Chandernagore when you speak about the "vital forces”?

Disciple : Yes.

Sri Aurobindo : At the time I had some construction in my mind. Of course, there was something behind it which I knew to be true. Even then I was not sure that it would work out successfully. Any way, I wanted to give it a trial and gave that idea to Motilal. Then he took-up the idea and, as you know, he took it up with all his vital being and in that egoistic way. So the vital forces found their chance. They tried to take possession of the work and of the workers.

It is after several such lessons that I had to give up the idea of rushing into work. This yoga is not a cut-out system. It is a growth by experience.

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Disciple : Did you ever put your power against it?

Sri Aurobindo : No. I did nothing of the kind. The only thing I did was to put the force so that those who were worth anything should be drawn out of it. I have forgotten all about it. In fact, I have long ago put away Chandernagore from my atmosphere. There was nothing of the Supramental there.

27-1-1939

This evening a very feeling letter written by Vivekananda in 1900 from California to Miss. Josephine Macleod was read to Sri Aurobindo. The relevant points in it are here reproduced.

Alameda, California

18th April 1900

After all, Joe, I am only a boy who used to listen with rapt wonderment to the wonderful words of Ramakrishna under the banyan at Dakshineshwar. That is my true nature, doing good and so forth are all superimpositions. Now I again hear the voice; the same old voice thrilling my soul. Bonds are breaking, love dying, work becoming tasteless – the glamour is off life.

Yes, I come, Nirvana is before me, I feel it at times, the same infinite ocean of peace, without a ripple, a breath.

Since the beginning of this year, I have not dictated anything in India. You know that.

I am drifting again in the warm heart of the river, I dare not make a splash with my hand or feet for fear of baking the wonderful stillness, stillness that makes you feel sure it (the world) is an illusion.

Behind my work was ambition, behind my love was personality, behind my purity was fear, behind my guidance

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the thirst of power. Now they are vanishing and I drift. I come, .Mother.... a spectator, no more an actor ............ things are seen and felt like shadows.

Vivekananda

Disciple : The question is : Is Vivekananda expressing only a passing mood because of his innate preference for Vairagya or was ambition really an element mixed in his work. I always felt that there was a double strain in his nature, – he wasdrawnbetweenwork and Sadhana.

Disciple : It is quite understandable that he observed some ambition lurking in his work. I do not think it is only a passingmood. SimultaneouslywiththeHigher Consciousness one can see these things in one's nature.

Sri Aurobindo : These things, like ambition etc., are not easily removed. They remain in the nature and are difficulttoget rid of. Evenwhenthe Higher Consciousness comes they can continue with the lower nature.

Disciple : But he says in his writings and speeches that he was conscious of a Higher Power driving him into activity.

Sri Aurobindo : Quite possible; he was conscious of such a Power driving him in spite of his weakness, but that does not mean that his own ambition did not mix with the working of the Power.

Disciple : But later on in his letter he speaks of being freed after death or "freed in the body". That implies that he did not attain liberation till then.

Sri Aurobindo : There are two kinds of liberation : one is when you drop the body, that is to say, you may have attained liberation in consciousness yet something in the nature continues in the old bondage and that ignorance is usually supported by the body-consciousness. When the body drops the man becomes entirely free or liberated.

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Another kind of liberation is what is called "Jivan-Mukti”;one realizes the liberation even while remaining in the body.

Disciple : But I believe there is a distinction between "Videha Mukti" and "Jivan Mukti".

Sri Aurobindo : No. "Jivan Mukti'' is the same as "Videha Mukti". The example of Janaka is usually quoted and the current idea is that "Jivan Mukti" is more difficult to attain than the liberation that is attained either by re­nunciation or by giving up the body.

Disciple : Souls like Vivekanandacomedownfora specific work in this world and after doing their work they again ascend to their high status. Is this true?

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. There is a plane of liberation from which beings can come down here and perhaps that is what Ramakrishna meant by saying there are "Nitya-Mukta" souls – souls who are eternally liberated, – who can go up and down the ladder of existence.

Disciple : Can they not evolve further on their own plane?

Sri Aurobindo : No.

Disciple : So there is no evolution on the other planes?

Sri Aurobindo : No. On the other planes there are only types and they cannot evolve. If they want to evolve a condition higher than theirs they must take birth here on earth – that is to say, take a human body. Even the gods are compelled to take human birth if they want to evolve.

Disciple : Why should the god, want to evolve? They must be feeling quite happy in their own state.

Sri Aurobindo : They may get tired of their happiness, and may want something higher, for example, they may get Nirvana.

Disciple : But then they may get tired of Nirvana! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : There is no one in Nirvana to get tired ! A was asking me the same question : "who has the

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experience of Nirvana?" If there is no "being" in that state the answer is : “nobody” has it. Something in you drops off and Nirvana takes its place. In fact there is no 'getting’ but blotting out of "what one is”. A was probably thinking that he would be sitting with his mental personality somewhere looking at Nirvana and saying : "Ah! this is Nirvana!" The reply is : so long as "you" are there, no Nirvana can be. One has to get rid of all attachments and all personalities before Nirvana can come and that is extremely difficult for one attached to his mental personality like A.

Disciple : If Nirvana is such a negative state, what is the difference between one who has it and one who has not?

Disciple : From the point of view of Nirvana there is no difference.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. You find the difference because it is "you" who get blotted out in Nirvana and not anybody else. (After a pause)

This letter makes at least something precise about Vivekananda's experience because what he speaks of here is the condition of Nirvana accompanied by a sense of illusion of the world.

Disciple : This division of consciousness into two, one feeling fundamentally free and the other imperfect or impure is a very common experience.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not only common, it is the ordinary experience and in order that one may be able to act without ambition one should be able to take action lightly. That is to say, one should not be perturbed if it is done or not done. It is something like the Gita’s “inaction in action'' and yet one must act, as the Gita says.

The test is that even if the work taken away or destroyed it must make no difference to the condition of consciousness.

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Disciple : Nirvana is a fundamental spiritual experience, is it not?

Sri Aurobindo : Nirvana, as I know it, is a necessary experience in order to get rid of the nature-personality which is subject to ignorance. You cease to be the small indi­vidual ego in a vast world. You throw away that and become the One in Nirvana. Nirvana is a passage, for passing into a condition in which your true individuality can be attained. That true individuality is not a small, narrow and limited self contained in the world, but is vast and infinite and can contain the world within it self; you can remain in the world and yet be above it, so to say. To get rid of the separative personality in nature Nirvana is a powerful experience.

Disciple : Does one realise oneself as an individual, that is to say, as the true Jiva after Nirvana?

Sri Aurobindo : One realises oneself as the One in all, and also the One as many and yet that One is also He.

Disciple : That is what you have called "multiple unity".

Sri Aurobindo : Yes.

Disciple : In our yoga we accept life as real.

Sri Aurobindo : That is to say, you have to give life a place in the Reality.

Disciple : And we are supposed or expected to do every­thing for you and the divine Mother. But in our nature we are full of ego and ignorance. So our surrender is also full of ego.

Sri Aurobindo : But you are supposed to make the surrender without the ego-sense. The law is that you should get rid of attachment and desire in your surrender.

Disciple : But there are people who want to force their attitude and ideas on others.

Sri Aurobindo : These are the people who have the idea of "our work", "our Ashram". That is a form of ego and that must go.

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Disciple : They even want others to accept you as the Guru and Avatar by physical force, (laughter)

You know what happened to Y who is a friend of X when he came here.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, and Y could contact the Consciousness only when he had gone from here.

The kind of thing is a great difficulty. There are some people here who, I believe, can't help propagan­dising. When R came here he was able to feel something behind all the activity and he was progressing in his own way quite well. But one lecture from Y and the whole thing was upset.

Disciple : I suppose this sort of thing disturbs your work very much.

Sri Aurobindo : Oh, always. Instead of allowing the man to proceed on his own lines there is an effort to force things and viewpoints to which he is not accustomed. It always interferes with the work.

Disciple : Most probably, the man revolts and turns against the yoga.

Sri Aurobindo : Either he shuts himself, or gets quite false ideas about yoga.

Disciple : Something should be done, I think, to stop V from carrying on propaganda.

Sri Aurobindo : Do you think he can be stopped? (Laughter) I have tried and found that nothing makes any impres­sion. (Laughter)

Disciple : He is giving lectures.

Sri Aurobindo : I thought he was already a kind of Guru. (Laughter)

Disciple : He explains everything on the blackboard.

Sri Aurobindo : What! Explaining the Brahman on blackboard! (Laughter)

Disciple : One day while V was on gate-duty X told him that the Mother's instruction to all Sadhakas on gate-duty

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duty is that they should not sit in the chair or read or write while on duty.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes, it was true. We know N and others used to continue sitting in the chairs and reply to visitor.

Disciple : When X had given the instructions he asked V why he was not carrying them out. V said : "That is my difficulty." (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo : If you tell these people to go somewhere else and start an Ashram of their own, they won't do that.

Disciple : But when I put the question of difficulty to you it referred to my inner difficulties,—these were not meant, I am afraid.

Disciple : I was only recounting my difficulty in making the surrender.

Sri Aurobindo : And I was recounting mine! (Laughter)

Disciple : It is very difficult for a man like me to accept what these people want one to accept. I can accept you as the guide and Guru. But I must have my spiritual experience to believe things.

Sri Aurobindo : It is not always necessary to have the expe­rience in order to believe. There are many people who believe on faith before they realise. But the difficulty comes when you want to force your faith on others. One can say : "I believe that so and so is an Avatar.” But one can't say : "If you don't believe in him I will beat you. (Laughter) Then there are others who want to go into the yoga with their families. There are husbands who get angry with their wives because they can't take to Yoga with them. (Laughter)

Disciple : They want to go to heaven with their family like Yudhishthira.

Sri Aurobindo : Going to heaven with the family may be possible but not into yoga. In the pursuit of a religious life you can have “Budo, Budi” – man and old dame”, as D. L. Rai says.

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Disciple : Yes. Then the atmosphere becomes harmonious at .

Sri Aurobindo : Then there are some who tell a new comer when he is refused admission, to stick on!

Disciple : Yes. X gives his own instance and says it was case of test. Test of faith! "If you have faith you will be admitted."

Sri Aurobindo : In most cases the people who persist are not those who have a real call for the yoga from something deep in them. In most cases it is obstinacy. I parti­cularly remember one case in which obstinacy was wonder­ful. There are others in whom the desire to come and remain here is a mere surface movement, while in others it is there because they are lunatics or eccentrics. Even if you tell them to seek another Guru they won't listen to you! (A pause)

Disciple : But this letter of Vivekananda is a very sincere letter. It is easy to understand his difficulty.

One cannot have freedom from ambition and other weaknesses unless one has the dynamic presence of the Divine all the time, or readily available whenever needed.

Sri Aurobindo : Yes. That is one way; or, as I said, if you can establish peace, equality and calm right up to your physical consciousness, so that nothing in you stirs what­ever happens then you can be free from ambition.

These things, as I said, are very difficult to get rid of. When I had the Nirvana experience at Baroda I thought at that time that I had no ambition left – at least personal ambition – in the work that I was doing for the country. Then I used to here a voice within me telling me all about my inner movement. When I reached Calcutta (1908) I heard this voice pointing out things within me which showed that there was personal ambition of which I was till then quite unconscious. So these things can hide for a very long time.

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Itis like the contest for Congress Presidentship in which both sides maintain that it is not ambition that is moving them, but the sense of duty, call of the cause, principles etc.! (Laughter)

Some Questions – 1942

Q : What exactly is meant by dissolution – Pralaya?

Sri Aurobindo : In the Puranic sense everything comes out of the Brahman and is withdrawn into it. And the popu­lar idea is that it will be projected in the same way as before.

Q : If dissolution is a fact, what is the relation between it and the new creation which follows? Tantra believes that after Maha Pralaya, the great dissolution, the new creation builds itself upon the Sanskaras – impressions and moulds of the past.

Whether we believe in the scientific theory of mate­rial evolution, or in the material spiritual theory, as soon as we take matter as the basis or one of the bases we come to believe in a beginning and it seems to me that it is impossible to avoid this conclusion of the mind. It seems the ancients answered this demand of the mind by dissolution-creation theory. Even if there be no absolute beginning there must be some satisfying know­ledge which reveals the secret of creation. The theory which calls the manifestation God's play or Lila seems to answer only one side of the question. It explains the pur­pose; but what about the process? Perhaps the mind may not demand a clear cut answer if it once has the experience that everything is a play of the spirit. Is that so? Or, is there an answer to this? What is the cycle and a Yuga?

Sri Aurobindo : There is no time at which it becomes this

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world. These are mental questions and solutions will be mental and many – each equally true.

Powerofcreation is eternal in Divine and so there is no point of time at which it acts. It is more rational to grant that it is eternal and always active.

Whether it will put out the same form, or some other form – it depends. It can be the same, in which case it will come into being at a higher stage of evolution open­ing up new possibilities and powers for mankind. It may not be mere repetition of this material formation.

Or it can be quite another formation. ''Why this Lila?” you can ask. The questioner seems to think that on the higher level there will be a mental answer to this mental question. That is not true.

And this idea that matter is something different from the Spirit is also not true. It is One thing. Even science now finds it so. It is the One Spirit. You can say : in Matter the condensation of consciousness takes place. At each stage of manifestation there is a different vibra­tion giving rise to different elements. Man is not a pure mental consciousness. He is a product of evolution from Matter to Life, from Life, to Mind.

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