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... addressing Purani ): What has become of your thief? PURANI: Which thief? The one with the bag of husk? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: He has been released. It was not important. The police said that it was done under the effect of wine. ( Laughter ) SRI AUROBINDO: He felt inspired? ( Laughter ) PURANI: Perhaps. Mother has again taken him into service. ( Sri Aurobindo laughed .) PURANI: Amrita's... article "Life's Companion" in which there is reference to Sri Aurobindo. Purani read out portions of the article. PURANI: "He (Sri Aurobindo) used to raise the topic of Vasudeva, Pradyumna, etc., and explain the subject with emotion." SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't know that I had any emotion during my explanation. PURANI: "I used to read all my articles to him. Udbodhan , a dramatic composition... wonder if I could stand it to the end. PURANI: "He would freely relate how he stayed in the air in meditation." SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! That legend seems to be going to last. PURANI: "I heard from his lips that Ramakrishna sat before him consoling him when he was arrested at Grey Street." SRI AUROBINDO: When? That is another story. PURANI: "He would relate how the hard iron bars of ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 3 JUNE 1940 PURANI: Franco's representative seems to have met Mussolini and then gone to meet Hitler. SRI AUROBINDO: Who is he? PURANI: I forget his name—some general. Military circles say that after seeing the Dunkirk operation they are convinced that the navy is still superior to the air force. The German air... had perhaps come there on hearing the noise! PURANI: General Prioux is said to have reached Dunkirk—the morning radio news says. SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is not correct. It seems only a part of Prioux's troops has reached there. Looks as if they were lost. Almost the whole of the B.E.F. has escaped. The French were farther away from the coast. PURANI: King Leopold's mother is said to be a German... sides. NIRODBARAN: But Spain has not yet recovered. PURANI: Still, it can attack Gibraltar. The French, of course, can attack through the Pyrenees. SRI AUROBINDO: France would have enough to face before attacking Spain. No, Italy can take possession of Majorca and Minorca and separate France from her colonies with its navy. PURANI: Also she can establish an air base. Spain's change of attitude ...

... he wants. PURANI: Sir Raja Ali is angry with Gandhi because Gandhi says most of the Muslims were originally Hindus. Raja Ali says it is insulting. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing) : But it is true. Most of the Muslims were Hindus. PURANI: Raja Ali says the Muslims are democratic. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different story. It does not exclude the fact that they were Hindus. PURANI: No. From Shah... almost a Hindu. PURANI: One Dr. Kantilal has asked what one should do, and how to become fit in order to come here. SRI AUROBINDO: He can do anything that will make him fit. (Laughter) PURANI: No, he wants some guidence or direction. SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter. He wanted to "become" something. If he wants guidence, then consecration and quietude of mind. PURANI: I shall write... FEBRUARY 1940 PURANI: Many people are coming from Bengal for the darshan and many Zamindars too. NIRODBARAN: Zamindars? Only in name, perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: Kiran S. Roy is coming. Suren Ghose seems to be arranging for seven persons to accompany him. I don't know how many will actually come. NIRODBARAN: I am glad that Bengal is turning now to Sri Aurobindo. PURANI: How do you mean? ...

... In Italy too not a single foreign paper is allowed to enter. PURANI: Jwalanti was saying that if one wants to discuss politics or criticise the government, one must look round carefully to see if anybody is overhearing; one must shut the doors and windows. SRI AUROBINDO: These are the Powers of obscurantism and falsehood. PURANI: America is alarmed after the Fascist success in Spain. She is... enough military strength on land, but the economic resources and man-power will make up for it. PURANI: Roosevelt is supplying armaments to France and that he can do even if America doesn't come into a war. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but Americans may object to it because it may involve them in war. PURANI: Jwalanti was praising Mussolini for what he has done for Italy. She hates his international policy... . (After a pause) By the way, who is this Wazir Hossain we read of? PURANI: He is a retired High Court judge in U.P., a leader of the Shias and a Congressman. His son is a Socialist and imprisoned by the last administration. He comes from Alighar University. SRI AUROBINDO: Is Aligarh University nationalist? PURANI: Yes, but Dara says its nationalism is very unreliable, like that of the Ali ...

... is excluded. PURANI: He wants everybody to follow him. He can't like Dilip since he published Harin's letter in Anami. SRI AUROBINDO: What letter? PURANI: Harin wrote to Dilip that if they want something new in Bengali they must get rid of Tagore's influence. Tagore is dominating too much. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling) : That is not untrue. I didn't see that letter. PURANI: Yes, it is there... from himself to the disciple. I want to know whether such an influence is given by a Tirthankara. PURANI: No. DR. MANILAL: It is said that wherever a Tirthankara is within a radius of four Yojanas 1 , all creatures, animals, human beings, etc., live in peace and lose their enmity. PURANI: Yes, Dharamchand was telling me of a vision he had about a Tirthankara sitting on a central throne... and here? There is no Vallabhbhai here, no office work and no family affairs. PURANI: About Nigodha, not Jiva, the Jains say there are many micro-organisms inhabiting our body and several other things. A potato, for instance, is compact with these Jivas. SATYENDRA: That is why the Jains don't eat potatoes. PURANI: All vegetables that grow underground have these Jivas. SRI AUROBINDO: And do ...

... What does Spengler say about the future—after the decline of the West? PURANI: He dismisses China and India as countries whose cultures are useless now. SRI AUROBINDO: Then we have the Arabs. PURANI: Not even the Arabs. They are also effete. SRI AUROBINDO: Then the Africans remain, and the Abyssinians. PURANI: I think his hope is in the Americans and the Africans. SATYENDRA: But America... makes 16. PURANI: Again, in regard to the rainbow, the scientist study the wave-lengths of light while the poets make a play imagination over it. We have no means of saying that the real rainbow exists for the scientist and not for the poet. SRI AUROBINDO: I should say it exists for neither. Only the scientists get excited over the process and the poets over the result. PURANI: Eddington also... non-scientific knowledge and experience are less real than physical science. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course not. PURANI: Did you read Spengler's Decline of the West? It is a huge volume and deals with many things. SRI AUROBINDO: No, I haven't read it. What is the upshot of its argument? PURANI : The upshot is that time is not a mental entity. It has a direction, a tendency. It tends to produce certain ...

... NIRODBARAN : You think that Nishikanto has intellectual substnce? SRI AUROBINDO: I believe he has. NIRODBARAN: Purani says your "Bird of Fire" has creative force. It is a creative symbolic poem. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling) : I don't know. (Looking at Purani) It is for Purani to pronounce. NIRODBARAN: He also thinks your "Shiva" has it. SRI AUROBINDO: Why not leave my poetry out of it?... ask you to read one Gujarati poet named Akho. He is all Vedanta. NIRODBARAN: X has no fancy for such poetry. This morning had an argument with Purani over your poem "Shiva". Purani say it has creative force, just as your "Bird of Fire" has. PURANI: Didn't you agree with me? NIRODBARAN: Yes, about "Bird of Fire". About the other I said that I didn't find creative force in it and asked, "Do... of God" has the creative force too. SATYENDRA: He is trying to make you commit yourself! (Laughter) PURANI: If Sri Aurobindo doesn't want to commit himself, nobody can succeed in that game. NIRODBARAN: I didn't have any sly intention. We only want to grasp the point clearly. PURANI: Nirodbaran says that if there is poetic force, it will be felt; I say that not everybody will feel it. "The ...

... beyond—even for going beyond Sattwa, etc. It is stepping-stone. PURANI: Anilbaran wants to know whether Kant and Hegel had a notion of a faculty beyond mind. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think so. PURANI: They didn't believe in a suprarational consciousness? SRI AUROBINDO: No, they thought Reason can arrive at the Truth. PURANI: Kant's Critique begins with the statement that knowledge of a... just the same now. I could understand if they had launched some campaign against the Government. By this time Purani had arrived. He didn't yet know the news about Rao's disappearance. Sri Aurobindo said, "Have you heard the news?" We all looked at Purani with intriguing smiles. PURANI: What news? SRI AUROBINDO: That Rao has disappeared? One of three things may have happened: The P.A. has made... It was written by Sisir Maitra to Anilbaran in the course of their discussion on Reason, Buddhi, Kant, Hegel, the Gita, etc. Ultimately Sri Aurobindo was referred to. In the evening Purani took up the topic. PURANI: Anilbaran asks if Buddhi can mean the same thing as Understanding. Professor Maitra says they are the same and so he places Buddhi lower than Reason just as Kant does with Understanding ...

... moved. SRI AUROBINDO: How? NIRODBARAN: Don't know; that is what they are saying. PURANI: Nolini was telling his last story. SRI AUROBINDO: What is it? PURANI: It seems it was when he was interned somewhere. SRI AUROBINDO: Was he interned? NIRODBARAN: Yes, in Cooch Bihar, he said. PURANI: His father was anxious to reinstate him in his job. So he thought the best way would be to... own imagination. PURANI: After the interview, while he was coming, he said, "My father has asked me to offer his thanks to you," to which Fraser laughed aloud. SRI AUROBINDO: What has Fraser got to do with his job? He was at Bombay. PURANI: Perhaps Fraser could cast some influence. SRI AUROBINDO: You don't know Dutt's other story? What Fraser said about me? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO:... the back getting beaten. PURANI: In his view the question is whether the moral law is partially active or absolutely active. Is there any room for accident or chance? SRI AUROBINDO: Why take for granted that these are the sole alternatives? There may be so many other factors. PURANI: He speaks of fate. SRI AUROBINDO: There may be things like that. PURANI: Gandhi's explanation of the ...

... laughter) Then Purani read the radio news about Russia attacking Finland, and about the All India Sugar Conference being postponed. SATYENDRA: Plenty of sugar has been destroyed because of a surplus. SRI AUROBINDO: Instead of destroying it, they could have given it free to the Ashram. (Laughter) While sponging Sri Aurobindo, Purani brought up the war news. PURANI: Molotov said Russia... i? (Laughter) PURANI: No, Molotov. SRI AUROBINDO: No territorial claims? Is it just a territorial walk then? Or is he going to deliver the Finnish people as he did the Ukrainians? I don't understand why these people don't clearly declare their objectives. PURANI: I hope the Americans will do something. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think so. They can only talk. PURANI (when some of the others... some time) Purani received something from Lele. PURANI : Oh yes, I know to my cost. He gave me a terrible fever just when I was in the peak of health; the fever left me only after I received a letter from here. My encounter with another Yogi gave me vomiting, giddiness, etc. Otherwise I got nothing from them. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling) : But Lele did give you something after all. PURANI: Yes-but ...

... movement? Nothing new there! PURANI: It seems Azad differed from Gandhi and was on the point of resigning! SRI AUROBINDO: As far as that? PURANI: Yes, he doesn't believe in ethical movements. He wants non-violence as a political weapon like others. But he was persuaded to stay on. SRI AUROBINDO: But if these people are not arrested, what will be the next move? PURANI: Gandhi doesn't say. Perhaps... have been exposed and seen. PURANI: Yes, the British R.A.F. is now able to know Germany's moves and preparations. Hitler now admits to Britain's naval power. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! it won't be long before he admits to Britain's air power too. SATYENDRA: Russia says that Germany and England are equal in air power. SRI AUROBINDO: Equal in force, not number. PURANI: If they can start invading... Russia attacks Rumania. PURANI: If Turkey is attacked by Germany what Russia will do, I wonder. SRI AUROBINDO: Don't know. NIRODBARAN: Russia is also interested in Bulgaria. SRI AUROBINDO: It was Russia under the Czar that liberated the Balkans and, if the Czar were there, they would have inclined towards Russia. Now they are afraid of both Russia and Germany. PURANI: There was a short engagement ...

... Roosevelt has taken two Republicans into the Government? PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: This is unprecedented in history. PURANI: They have been made secretaries of Navy and War. If he plunges into war, he wants to have the Republican party with him perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Another unprecedented step is his standing for a third term. PURANI: The Democrats will nominate him, I hope. SRI AUROBINDO:... 21 JUNE 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): The armistice seems to have failed; the envoys came back almost immediately yesterday. Hitler must have pressed for complete acceptance or complete refusal and didn't give any chance for discussion. The French Government seems to have gone to Morocco from Bordeaux. PURANI: Then it is all right; no more chance of peace. SRI AUROBINDO:... Muslims and the untouchables. SRI AUROBINDO: That must come then from Abul Kalam Azad and the Muslim Premier's conference. PURANI: The American Republican party has disowned the two Republicans Roosevelt has appointed. SRI AUROBINDO: What a pity! Why? PURANI: Because they are strongly pro-English. Not that the Republican party is itself anti-Allies. Spain perhaps will enter the war on Germany's ...

... question, we do say that. (Laughter) PURANI: Have you heard that N. R. Sirkar and Kiran S. Roy are coming here? SRI AUROBINDO: What for? PURANI: For Darshan. And Nazimuddin also. SRI AUROBINDO: Nazimuddin? PURANI: Yes, he in August, the others in February. Nolini is wondering where to put them up. NIRODBARAN: They have got permission? PURANI: No, they have written for permission... least he was present at a talk about the Ashram. PURANI: There is one Hemen Roy Chowdhury, Zamindar of Mymensingh, in whose house you stayed. The name of his place is "Tress and Shrubs". SRI AUROBINDO: No, "Trees and Shrubs". (Laughter) Is he still alive? (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: You are sending people to the other world! (Laughter) PURANI: His nephew has written. So he may be dead. SRI... only a good poet, a very great poet. His character doesn't seem up to very much; he is said to be vain and proud. When the Mother came, Purani read the radio news which stated that N. N. Sirkar had taken up spinning. SRI AUROBINDO : Oh! N. R. Sirkar? PURANI: No, it is N. N. Sirkar. SRI AUROBINDO (after his walk) : Are you sure it is not N. R. Sirkar? That seems to be more likely now that he ...

... provinces, then it is practically Home Rule. PURANI: The Viceroy's long stay at Bombay seems significant. I think there is something behind it. He perhaps wants to make Dr. Kher or Rajagopalachari head of the Central Assembly in a Federation. SRI AUROBINDO: Is that so? Dr. Kher seems to be a very able man. He appears to have escaped the Socialist trap. PURANI: Vallabhbhai Patel is terribly anti-Socialist... AUROBINDO: Nazimuddin can't make a popular figure. PURANI: Gandhi has definitely said that any compromise with the Muslim League is impossible now. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't understand why the Congress opened negotiations with the League. The League has been given undue importance. How is it that the Congress is so weak in the Punjab? PURANI: Because of the Socialists and the Old Group. The... Tagore's place one of this type: he had magnificent features. The second type is the usual Mongol type. They haven't a particularly handsome face. Purani now brought in the question of the dictator and traced Hitler's genealogy, as it were. PURANI: The dictator's psychology is centred in the authority-complex. People feel that they are great and Hitler is fighting for them, not that they are fighting ...

... PURANI: Perhaps you want to keep the habit. DR. MANILAL: No, no, I don't want to keep it at all. SRI AUROBINDO: But Something in you may want it. Otherwise why should it come? DR. MANILAL: Which part of me wants it, Sir? I myself don't know. SRI AUROBINDO: The body consciousness may respond to the habit and the vital consciousness may want to accept the law of pain. PURANI: The... suffering in Jainism? PURANI: Yes, there is. Jainism says that suffering helps the soul to grow from a lower to a higher status and that suffering is the result of past Karma. DR. MANILAL: That is Nirjhar. There are two kinds of suffering: Sakama (with desire) and Akama (without desire). Sakama is that which one imposes on oneself and Akama is what comes uninvited to one. PURANI: Fasting has a great... understand it. What I meant is that one can get a glimpse of Supermind from the Intuition level, and such a glimpse was my first step. PURANI (after a while) : I believe Nirodbaran feels a little dull tonight for want of discussion of Jainism. SRI AUROBINDO: How? PURANI: Because of Dr. Manilal's departure. SRI AUROBINDO: Is all that Manilal says about Jainsim correct? SATYENDRA: He seems to have ...

... you look at the individual being, they are divided when you want to do anything. India is indivisible but it is very much divided! (Laughter) EVENING SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): What is the news of the world? PURANI (smiling a little): I have no news. You have read Lloyd George's speech? DR. MANILAL: It is a very balanced speech. Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Very balanced? Nonsense! The one... mistakes except him. Who doesn't make mistakes? Gandhi has also admitted that he has made "Himalayan blunders". PURANI: Lloyd George is asking the Government to state its war aims and peace terms. How can one do that now? DR. MANILAL: And he refers to his own Government in 1917. PURANI: Yes, but that was when they were winning the war, while now they are just in the thick of the fight, with at... Madras says that mind is hungry. Mind is not hungry; it is the life and body that are hungry. PURANI: Professor Atreya calls Krishnamurti a philosopher. SRI AUROBINDO (chuckling): Bhagwan Das also and Radhakrishnan. Is Radhakrishnan really a philosopher? Has he contributed anything new? PURANI: No, he is only an exponent of Indian philosophy. SRI AUROBINDO: That's what I thought. He is ...

... (Laughter) PURANI: Still he has his sympathy for the communists? But he didn't write about his approaching marriage? SRI AUROBINDO: Marriage? PURANI: Yes, as soon as his B.A. result is out he will get married. NIRODBARAN: How can he write about it? It will bring denunciation on him. PURANI: He is going to marry in his caste. SRI AUROBINDO: Communists have castes? PURANI: He has seen... "Is he a black sheep in the fold or what?" SRI AUROBINDO: A bi-striped animal. (Laughter) PURANI: The socialists in Bombay are not in the forefront now. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? PURANI: After the seceding of Masani, they have lost ground. SRI AUROBINDO: Why has Masani seceded? PURANI: He does not seem to have found anybody sincere among them. He now lives a retired life. SRI AUROBINDO:... are only imprisoning them. PURANI: Because of the death penalty hanging over them. SRI AUROBINDO: That, only if they do any subversive activity like interfering with the soldiers. They were trying to make a pact with Hitler. PURANI: The French seemed to have destroyed seven hundred tanks. SRI AUROBINDO: Yesterday it was four hundred—a very good number. PURANI: Today's paper says seven hundred ...

... AUROBINDO: Through Rumania? PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: They will have to violate the Rumanians' neutrality. Even then it won't be enough. They will have to pass through Bulgaria also. PURANI: But if Rumania is attacked by Russia the allies may help Rumania. SRI AUROBINDO: In that case they will have to take in Turkey. Turkey is not willing to fight Russia. PURANI: England is building a naval... Upanishad also speaks of eko vaśi (one controller). PURANI: Can receptiveness be said to be the same as Grace? SRI AUROBINDO: No, Grace is conditioned by receptiveness. PURANI: What Krishnaprem means by receptiveness appears to be the same as Bhakti, devotion. SRI AUROBINDO: People who follow the path of love and Bhakti rely most on Grace. PURANI: We hear that Grace is always present. Whenever... 1940 Talks with Sri Aurobindo 29 JANUARY 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani) : I have been reading a book of prophecy on the war. PURANI: Prophecy by studying planets? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the author says that there is going to be peace but it won't be a satisfactory peace. Germany will fare badly, Hitler will go down and the Third Reich will come ...

... one is free? PURANI: He says partially free—in the process of becoming free. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. PURANI: Sardesai makes out in the course of a talk that Shivaji had no political guidance from Ramdas: Ramdas refused to give any when Shivaji approached him. This is something new. SRI AUROBINDO: What about the ochre-coloured flag? A legend? PURANI: He says that Ramdas... art. Anybody can look at the moon or the sky and get an emotion. PURANI: Now they give a new definition to art. They say art must be able to transmit emotion. Otherwise it is not art or it is art that has no value. SRI AUROBINDO: What emotion? PURANI: Feeling, I suppose. SRI AUROBINDO: Feeling? What feeling? PURANI: Such as an agriculturist or farmer can understand. That is their conception... Rumania seems to be in luck. It has got not only the Germans but an earthquake too. PURANI: Yes, like Turkey. SRI AUROBINDO: But Turkey has no Germans! PURANI: The Germans are trying to penetrate into Bulgaria also in the guise of tourists. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Hitler didn't find Boris very— PURANI: Pliable? No. ...

... Darshan of February 21. PURANI: I didn't know he is the brother of George Joseph. George is said to have read all your works. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. But I can't understand this editor's position. He says he is an impenitent rationalist and yet calls Jesus the only Avatar! PURANI: And he is an agnostic too! SATYENDRA: He doesn't know himself what he is. PURANI: A lady of an aristocratic... trouble her mind? PURANI: I should think so. SRI AUROBINDO: That is why she finds it difficult to have darshan of Goloka. SATYENDRA: Somehow I distrust these voices. SRI AUROBINDO: Because it reminds you of "specially favoured people"? There is a true voice that comes, but it is not so common as people make it out to be. Gandhi hears voices only during crises. PURANI: In times of conflict... Divine which he couldn't understand. PURANI: Olaf also doesn't understand The Life Divine. He was telling Amrita, '"Or rather; or rather'-what does all that mean?" SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't know English, and what he writes is Swedish English. He says reading The Life Divine is all sadhana. Sadhana of hunger and incapacity. (Laughter) PURANI: He says it should be like the Bible: "O ye ...

... (Laughter) PURANI: He has met the Congress leaders and they are also changing, he says. Rajendra Prasad he found to be a very good man. About Nehru he is silent. SRI AUROBINDO: I thought he was against any spirituality. PURANI (after a while): This Muslim delegation to the All India Muslim Education Conference has arrived. SRI AUROBINDO: Delegation? It is not a delegation. PURANI: Hasn't... SATYENDRA: What can they do? NIRODBARAN: Non-violent non-cooperation? PURANI: Non-violent? By the Muslims? SRI AUROBINDO: They can start some Khaksar agitation. EVENING PURANI: The Germans claim to have sunk three warships and many troopships of the Allies. SRI AUROBINDO: Three warships? PURANI: Two battleships and one cruiser. SRI AUROBINDO: Two sloops probably. Difficult... SATYENDRA: They can only make air raids. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The British are preparing their defences NIRODBARAN (addressing Purani): Jinnah has come out. So he is not ill. SRI AUROBINDO: He practically says to the Government, "You side with us and we will see." PURANI: What can the Congress do? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. NIRODBARAN: If the Government concedes to the Congress, can the Muslim League ...

... the Middle East will not submit and neither will the navy. PURANI: That will be very good. Hitler can't stop the navy. Except for the Italian Navy, he has no sea power. SRI AUROBINDO: Three things are important: French gold, her air force and her navy. If the navy falls to Hitler, it will be a difficult time for England. PURANI: Oil reserves also; it is not known what the French have done... e, even if that independence is precarious nowadays. It would be the next practical step. NIRODBARAN: Rajagopalachari, I think, would accept it. PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: It is only Nehru who would object. He lives in his ideas. PURANI: He may say, for example: "What interest has Japan in Indo-China?" (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: What interest had she in China? What interest had Hitler... an honourable peace. He is supposed to be a very capable man. It was due to him that the Indo-China bank flourished. PURANI: The envoys may be shouted down by Hitler like Hacha. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, or they may be starved till they agree to sign the terms imposed. PURANI: They can have some food brought to them by parachutists. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, some chemical food to eat surreptitiously ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 7 MAY 1940 SRI AUROBINDO ( to Purani): Do you know if Bhedabheda and Dwaitadwaita are the same? One, I know, is the philosophy of Nimbarkar and the other of Bhaskara. PURANI: I think they are the same philosophy and by the same person. The two names are of one man. SRI AUROBINDO: Everybody says that what I have... can't take Narvik. The Germans have occupied Namsos and if they send reinforcements to the North it will be difficult for the Allies. PURANI: Yes, they are already sending troops and the air force. SATYENDRA: We shall see what Chamberlain has to say. PURANI: Probably there will be changes in the Cabinet. SRI AUROBINDO: That depends on the debate. NIRODBARAN: Labour opposition may give... proclaim any system of thinking. They follow Vivekananda, perhaps. PURANI: Vivekananda does not seem to have succeeded as a philosopher. SRI AUROBINDO: His writings on Yoga are forceful. He made an attempt at writing philosophy and said that all philosophies are on the way to the Truth but only Shankara's reaches the final goal. PURANI: The Ramakrishna Mission doesn't have any outstanding thinker ...

... Aurobindo 2 JULY 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (looking at Purani): We are in a queer position about money. PURANI: How? SRI AUROBINDO: The British Government has stopped the British notes from coming here and the French notes are not accepted by this Government. PURANI: Why have they done that? SRI AUROBINDO: Don't know. The Consul seems to have written to... ultimatum to Hungary. PURANI: No, it may be just a rumour. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the news is too good to be true. (Laughter) PURANI: The communists in Bessarabia are very happy and the Rumanians are fleeing. Trainloads seem to be crossing each other carrying refugees. SRI AUROBINDO: And the Jews are running away to the Russian territory. (Laughter) PURANI: The clashes, they say, are... Chamberlain. PURANI: Lloyd George also asked for help to the Republicans at that time. NIRODBARAN: And they would have had Russia as their ally and she would have been more trustful of them. Now to take Gibralter may well be Hitler's next move. SRI AUROBINDO: Most probably. PURANI: Subhas Bose has been arrested. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, by a friend of his. (Laughter) PURANI: It may be a ...

... Aurobindo 14 JUNE 1940 PURANI: Jaswant has been arrested under the Defence Act. As the president of All-India Students' Federation or something of the sort he gave lectures for which he has been arrested. He is not careful about what he says. SRI AUROBINDO: He never was. PURANI: I am wondering what will become of his marriage. SRI AUROBINDO: God... wanted the federation to be under France. SRI AUROBINDO: Under himself. SATYENDRA: He was France. PURANI: Even the Germans favoured the idea. Goethe welcomed it. SRI AUROBINDO: Goethe was not a patriot. He said that the Germans were barbarians and would always be barbarians. PURANI: Kant also did not have much sympathy with Prussia. He was a professor in Prussia, at Konigsberg, I think... AUROBINDO: The Duke of Weimar was a liberal. PURANI: The Christians tried to make out that Kant disproved the existence of God. SRI AUROBINDO: No, on the contrary, he tried to prove the possibility of the existence of God. Goethe was a cosmopolitan. When he was asked to express hatred against France, he said that he owed most of his culture to France. PURANI: Frederick the Great had a deep respect ...

... been broken and he will occupy the whole of France. PURANI: And how will Hitler subjugate the colonies that don't accept the French Government? In the Middle East the authorities have said they will fight on. Pétain will have to send the French fleet against them. SRI AUROBINDO: The navy won't do; he will have to send land troops. PURANI: Then he can transport them by the French navy. SRI... Gandhi and Jinnah during the week. SATYENDRA: This Viceroy Linlithgow is a good man. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: Better than Willingdon at any rate. NIRODBARAN: It was Mrs. Willingdon who was worse. SRI AUROBINDO: So Linlithgow is better than Lady Willingdon. (Laughter) PURANI: The French officers, members of the Cercle, are going to send a wire to De Gaulle in England that they will... colonies have appealed already. PURANI: Appealing is not enough. They must repudiate the Government. That is more important. SRI AUROBINDO: Mombrant on hearing the armistice terms said, "It is not armistice, it is treason." The Patrika says that Laval and Flandin have engineered the whole thing, Laval being friendly with Italy and Flandin with Germany. PURANI: Very soon after the war began, ...

... give him some help, Sir. PURANI : His friends say that he is completely changed. NIRODBARAN: Yes, yes! SRI AUROBINDO: You are outraging his modesty. He is not making progress in the way he wants perhaps. The talk then came to art and democracy. PURANI: There is a contradiction in these people who advocate art for the masses. SRI AUROBINDO: How? PURANI: If they really want art to... beginning and no end. Yet they speak of the world as being created. PURANI: He was also asking about the three births of Agni. First we thought it was Agni born in the physical, vital and mental. After looking it up, I found it was the three supreme births. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is the birth of Agni above in the Infinite. PURANI: He referred to Sayana and found that the three are Indra, Vayu and... and Agni. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, if he goes by Sayana, he will be finished. PURANI: He says people won't accept your interpretation of the Veda.. SATYENDRA: Everybody has interpreted the Veda according to his own knowledge. SRI AUROBINDO: These are matters of experience; they can't be understood by the mind. PURANI: In The Life Divine there is a quotation where you have said, "May the restrainers ...

... ten-year-old block perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: He is doing like me. (Laughter) Purani was shaking a finger from behind at Sri Aurobindo with much mirth. SATYENDRA: Purani is very glad. Sir! SRI AUROBINDO: Why? PURANI: Because of that statement of yours. SATYENDRA: People grumble about your photos. PURANI: They say you look quite different when they see you at Darshan, they don't recognise... agreement with the minorities. Is he a Scotsman? PURANI: Yes, why? SATYENDRA: He has donated Rs. 200 in Bombay. (Laughter) PURANI: He is said to be a very good man, very polite, etc. Lalji met him in Bombay; he said that our Indian Princes are not like the old English aristocrats. SRI AUROBINDO: The Princes are given a very bad education. PURANI: Lalji says he is not so young as he looks in... going to meet a violent death? Abul Kalam Azad? PURANI: And who is the cinema star? Shanta Apte will again fast? SRI AUROBINDO: And the director will kill her in a fit of rag (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Some Dev, a friend of Mohini, has come to see the Ashram. SRI AUROBINDO: Is he one of the three brilliant students! P. C. Roy? PURANI: He is a student of Meghnad Saha. NIRODBARAN: He ...

... a Moderate. More than one Indian batallion were ready to help us. I knew a Punjabi sentry at Alipore who spoke to me about the revolution. (Turning to Purani) Do you know one Mandale? PURANI: With spectacles? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: I knew him. He became a quiet man later and settled down in life. SRI AUROBINDO: It was he who introduced me through someone else to the Secret Society... a little mad." PURANI: That College building is an imitation of Eton. SRI AUROBINDO: But Eton has no dome. PURANI: It is a combination of modern with ancient architecure. SRI AUROBINDO: At any rate it is the ugliest dome possible. Ramakrishna Mission was a little afraid of Nivedita's political activities and asked her to keep them separate from its work. PURANI: What about her yogic... Thakur Dayanand was a revolutionary, I think, and the Sannyasin who spoke about the Uttara Yogi, the Yogi from the North, was another. PURANI: Brahmananda of Chandod spoke of driving away the British. SRI AUROBINDO: Is that so? I didn't know it. PURANI: It is said that Nivedita wept bitterly because she found that everything the revolutionaries had done to awake the people had quieted down ...

... AUROBINDO: The British have made another strategic retreat. ( Laughter ) PURANI: Yes, they got safely away without losing a single man. SRI AUROBINDO: The Germans allowed them to run away, perhaps. PURANI: Fifteen generals have been relieved of their command in France. SRI AUROBINDO: That is quite a big number. PURANI: They were said to be indifferent and negligent. SRI AUROBINDO: That... sabotage in the army? PURANI: The generals were just indifferent. SRI AUROBINDO: Not sabotage exactly. Some officer here said that along with the first French refugees some two thousand Germans came in and produced a demoralising effect. And yet the authorities took no action against them. Daladier exhibits himself as a strong man but he is really very weak. PURANI: A French counterpart of... y there is based on unity and difference is a play of the One. EVENING PURANI: That book of astrology is hard on Sir Oswald Mosley, and what the writer has said has come true. Mosley has been imprisoned. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but Mosley may comfort himself by thinking that Hitler too was once imprisoned. PURANI: As regards particulars, the book is not correct at all. SRI AUROBINDO: Only ...

... PURANI (after a lull in the talk) : Anilbaran says that according to Kant if one follows Reason one is free but if one follows Sense one is bound. There is also the question: Is Buddhi or Intellect an instrument of Prakriti and can a man, so long as he follows Buddhi, be free in the Gita's sense—that is, free from Nature? SRI AUROBINDO: Does the Gita say that he can't be free? PURANI: Well... use the lower instruments to rise to the higher. PURANI: Anilbaran does not want to admit Sisir Malta's contention that Kant's idea of following Reason is the same as the Gita's Buddhi-Yoga. SRI AUROBINDO: He is quite a controversialist. (Laughter) But in a controversy one has to see whatever truth there is in others' points of view. PURANI: Kant, it seems, changed his mind in later life and... Reason . SRI AUROBINDO: I haven't read European philosophy carefully. PURANI: Besides, it doesn't interest us, as it has no practical bearing. SRI AUROBINDO: That was Arjava's great complaint, that here people always want something practical. They don't want to think for the sake of thinking. (Laughter) PURANI: Kant's notion of freedom is not the same as our Indian notion of Mukti. ...

... That's why I got the knock. The sharp edge of my bed gave it. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing) : You can call it a modernistic knock. SATYENDRA: Purani also had a knock some time back. PURANI : Yes, and it is still giving me pain. SRI AUROBINDO: Purani! Oh, Purani has an athletic movement. He knocks against anything and everything. He would even knock against the Mannerheim Line. (Laughter) ... Indian Express will bring out on February 21. The poem was given to Sri Aurobindo by Purani. SRI AUROBINDO (after, reading it) : How can he rhyme "era" with "aura"? NIRODBARAN: Modern rhymes, I suppose. Dilip was surprised that a poem with so many metrical errors was being sent for publication. PURANI: Nolini has kept it back. Of course R.N. doesn't know of it yet. SRI AUROBINDO: It is... they felt scandalised. PURANI: Amal told me about this book when he first came. He was persuaded by his friends to stop its circulation. Otherwise he would have lost his name. His motto was, like Oscar Wilde's, to write on anything he liked. SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on how you write. Wilde would have been the last man to approve of writing anything in any way. PURANI: I mean writing about erotic ...

... sent another letter. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Yes. PURANI: I had a letter from his brother. He is very happy in jail, he says. Put in B class. SRI AUROBINDO: Like Oswald Mosley? PURANI: They had fixed his marriage but due to his imprisonment they had to drop it. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? They couldn't arrange it in jail? PURANI: Russia has demanded the return of her trucks from Rumania... (after some time): This book on modern poetry by F. R. Leavis is very heavy reading. PURANI: Nolini also said that. He couldn't make anything out of it. The author says that the reading public of poetry is getting very small. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, and he says it is a very good thing, (Laughter) PURANI: But the number of poets is increasing, he says, and many have talents. But the talent depends... depends on what use society will make of it. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Obviously! PURANI: You have seen at the end of the book what he says about the sale of poetry books? SRI AUROBINDO: No. PURANI: He has quoted a publisher's statement—very revealing. The publisher says that out of many books published, some—about one dozen—brought twelve pounds altogether from the sale and, as for the ...

... the country. SRI AUROBINDO: Defence against whom? PURANI: Pétain has become a Führer. SRI AUROBINDO: Not yet, going to be. PURANI: He says that now is the last phase of the third Republic and the motto will be not Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, but Work, Family and Patrie. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the Fascist motto. PURANI: The priests are happy because Pétain is a Catholic. ... NIRODBARAN: Won't that put the British in a bad plight? SRI AUROBINDO: Not in a bad plight, but certainly in some difficulty. PURANI: Rumania has lined up with the Axis. SRI AUROBINDO: It had already done that before. PURANI: Yes, but now it has openly declared it and cut off oil supplies to England. Some Englishmen have left Rumania. The Nazis seem to say, "Oh, it is too friendly!" (Laughter)... NIRODBARAN: He will allow us so long as he is not criticised. PURANI: It seems Bonvain is unable to communicate with the Pétain Government. The British office won't accept his telegrams, SRI AUROBINDO: Then we may be safe, at least during the war, unless they send somebody by aeroplane which may be shot down by mistake by the British. PURANI: But the aeroplane has to land at Karachi—unless they make ...

... if it was different in his time. PURANI: Anilbaran was saying that in Europe couples are changing their partners. There was a case in the court about it. SRI AUROBINDO: You mean trial marriages? PURANI: No, A member of one couple is exchanged for a member of another couple after having five or six children. SRI AUROBINDO: After having children? PURANI: Yes. The original members don't agree... That is not the case with me. NIRODBARAN: Perhaps Nolini, Anilbaran and Purani will have to write in your case. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: And each will understand my philosophy in his own way and produce his own interpretation. Mahendra Sircar will come in too and there will be Veerabhadra after him. (Laughter) PURANI: Veerabhadra will equate you with Shankara or he will say that you have... use of repeating and repeating the same old thing? PURANI: To go back to the idea of Moore: there is another proposal by Nolini and me to make an anthology out of all your works. People who have read your books will select passages and from these a final selection will be made. SATYENDRA: This is something like Raja Rao's idea. PURANI: Yes, but he seems to have dropped away. SATYENDRA: ...

... by the mind only. There is also the vital-physical part that materialises. PURANI: Paul Brunton writes that when he was in Egypt he met near a hill an ancient Egyptian who had died thousands of years ago and had been mummified. Brunton talked with him. SRI AUROBINDO: What happened afterwards to the Egyptian? PURANI: I believe he went back to the hill. SRI AUROBINDO: Then one can't say what... author had sent a typed copy. I don't think more than half a dozen copies of the book could have been sold. He seems to have lost all his money. PURANI: Some Gujaratis are also attacking the Ashram. SRI AUROBINDO: But why? What is their grievance? PURANI: They say we are not doing anything for the country or for humanity. SRI AUROBINDO: Since when has the Ashram been expected to do such things... prepared to give up everything. SRI AUROBINDO: I see—and one can't give up everything for God, I suppose? PURANI: He must have meant "give up everything and go jail". SRI AUROBINDO(shaking his head and looking at the ceiling) : Jail? I can't picture Dilip in jail. (Laughter) PURANI: The two don't go well together. SATYENDRA: Perhaps he would have written some new about jail afterwards. ...

... Purana is most anti-Buddhist. SATYENDRA: Then it must have been very late. PURANI: Buddha was born 550 B.C. SRI AUROBINDO: This Purana is not so early as that. All the Puranas in fact are posterior to Buddhism. They are a part of the Bramanical revival which came in the Gupta period as a reaction to Buddhism. PURANI: They are supposed to have been written about the third or fourth century A... You must admire one Indian writer's interpretation of the Gods as Gases—magnificently ingenious! PURANI: Many Riks of Dirghatamas are untranslated even today by European commentators. SRI AUROBINDO: You can't understand or translate them unless you have the key to their symbolism. PURANI: In several Riks he speaks of the largest or highest step of the cow. SRI AUROBINDO: That is certainly... is a symbol of divine light and consciousness, and its highest step is their highest level. PURANI: Dirghatamas is to me a great stumbling-block on the whole, though some of his Riks are clear in their symbolism. SRI AUROBINDO: He has justified his name which means "Long in the darkness". PURANI: There was an article about Saraswati in a magazine, saying that it was a river that flowed both ...

... NIRODBARAN: If the Army rises in revolt— SRI AUROBINDO: That would be something. PURANI: The Belgian Cabinet is trying to raise a new Belgian army. NIRODBARAN: Yes, but it's not much use. They can't go to Belgium and fight there. SRI AUROBINDO: Still, it shows the rebellion of the people. PURANI: It will be like the Czech and Polish armies—with only small numbers of men. SRI AUROBINDO:... AUROBINDO: He must have said that deliberately to Arya Samajist. PURANI: Yes, I know of an Arya Samajist who had an altercaation with Ramana Maharshi some time ago. This is probably the same man. It was said that Ramana Maharshi got excited and angry and began to shout. This man also says he became angry. SRI AUROBINDO: Angry? PURANI: Yes, Brunton too has said that he gets angry. SRI AUROBINDO:... AUROBINDO: Ramakrishna also used to get angry, for that matter. PURANI: He says that in Gandhi's Ashram there is no caste. SRI AUROBINDO: And why does he say that the Maharshi was jealous because he criticised him? Does one criticise out of jealousy? Gandhi doesn't believe in the caste system? PURANI: Oh yes, he does. SATYENDRA: Varnashram. The Maharshi has a very good relationship with Gandhi ...

... wouldn't that have counted morally? SRI AUROBINDO: Certainly, it would have had a great moral value for her. PURANI: Apart from that it would have been a great benefit from the practical point of view. NIRODBARAN: That, of course, but I am talking of moral and spiritual values. PURANI: It seems Suryakumari or somebody else brought some French coins to the Mother; on seeing them the Mother said... the military. NIRODBARAN: Was there any difference in policy among the members of the Cabinet? SRI AUROBINDO: Probably. Reynaud is unpopular. Now it is practically a military dictatorship. PURANI: Even after the war it may remain. Most of them seem to be Catholics and from the right wing. NIRODBARAN: Weygand hasn't shown any remarkable qualities till now. SATYENDRA: Pétain has no time... they could have been called up long ago. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. I suppose they wanted to keep men for commerce, agriculture, industry, etc., so that export would go on leisurely as in 1914. PURANI: And they could rely on the blockade. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but except for war materials the blockade can't be so effective if Hitler becomes master of Europe. EVENING News arrived at about ...

... The German army is less than twenty miles from Paris. PURANI: André Maurois, the writer, has flown to England to ask for more men to be sent to France—raw recruits don't matter. They are badly in need of men. SRI AUROBINDO: Men who know how to shoot? (Laughter) You said the number of Germans is ten to one against the French? PURANI: Yes, in certain sectors. SRI AUROBINDO: How can France... what picture Roosevelt has drawn of the future under Hitler? PURANI (after some time): The Khaksars have been rounded up; three hundred people have been arrested. Sikander Hyat Khan has said that the Government has found the link between Khaksars and the enemy countries. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, has he? Where has he said that? PURANI: I do not know, but he has said so and therefore he has no sympathy... sympathy for them. SRI AUROBINDO: At last he has woken up. The Khaksars were a terrible danger to the Hindus too. PURANI: It seems the Thakore of Rajkot died as the result of tiger hunting. SATYENDRA: Not heart-failure? PURANI: Heart-failure as a consequence probably. Virawalla is also dead. Our people will surely link up these two deaths with Gandhi's fast. They will say, "It is a punishment ...

... follow. But architecture has stopped everywhere. PURANI: Elie Faure says the machine is also a piece of archtecture. SRI AUROBINDO: How? PURANI: Because it is made of parts and fulfils certain functions. SRI AUROBINDO: Then you also are a piece of architecture. Everything is made of parts. The motor-car too is architecture then.. PURANI: X finds these paintings of Picasso very remarkable... Jews. PURANI: I was extremely shocked to hear of Von Schleicher being murdered in a new purge. SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler killed the lieutenant who had raised him to power on a charge of immorality, and that again is the London cabman mentality. But it is an instance of his diabolical cunning. He had known all the time of that man's homosexuality. PURANI: Schomberg was telling me, "Mr. Purani, we say... means. (Addressing Purani) Have you seen a certain Futurist painting representing a man in different positions? The artist wanted to convey movement in painting—most absurd! You may just as well draw our guest-house "Golconde" walking about. Each art has its own conditions and limitations and you have to work under those conditions and with those limitations. PURANI: I hope the aspiration ...

... was wondering how he could be so busy with a cat, but when Purani said he has an English wife it became clear to me. SRI AUROBINDO: How? She belongs to the same species, you mean? (Laughter) PURANI: I wrote back that now Vakil would have to make a horoscope for the reading of his horoscope. SRI AUROBINDO: That is to say? PURANI: Judging by the present circumstances, the stars have all... doing some experiment with the sun's rays and called it Suryavijnana (Solar Science). PURANI: Yes, he seems to have started a laboratory to utilise the sun's rays for material and spiritual purposes, but the laboratory was not completed. SRI AUROBINDO: Material purposes possible, but how spiritual? PURANI: I don't know. SRI AUROBINDO: If he wanted to remove some physical obstacles in the... opening, that may be possible. Or was it by changing the secretion of the glands? PURANI: The glands have now gone out of fashion, perhaps. NIRODBARAN: No, they are still going strong. Plenty of researches are still being done. SRI AUROBINDO: Possibly after some time they will also be quite antiquated. PURANI: Yes, the researchers may even say the glands don't exist. SRI AUROBINDO: When ...

... AUROBINDO: Because he has to evolve through his own nature. PURANI: When the freedom of the Purusha is won, then does it become possible for the individual to look beyond the Cosmic spirit to the Transcendent? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; that is to say, instead of being an instrument of ignorant Nature, you become the instrument of the Divine. PURANI: Do you mean by the Cosmic Spirit the Impersonal Consciousness... also a personality. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, there is the psychic Purusha. PURANI: Does the psychic being develop from birth to birth? SRI AUROBINDO: It is not the psychic being itself that develops. But it guides the evolution of the individual by increasing the psychic element in the nature of the individual. PURANI: If the psychic being is a spark of the Divine, then its function is the same... or inactive, so to speak, while the Sat aspect is in front. PURANI: You have so often said that Sachchidananda is a triune reality and no part of it can be thought of as separate. SATYENDRA: The difficulty arises when one has seen many experiments of different systems. One finds great difficulty in choosing among them. PURANI: Does one always choose by the mind? SATYENDRA: There is no other ...

... opens. SATYENDRA: The Supermind opening is a long affair. SRI AUROBINDO: Intuition would be easier to get. PURANI: If one gets the Supermind, there will be no need to find anything out. NIRODBARAN: Yes, the hair will grow itself. There will be a change in every cell. PURANI: You will be all golden, I suppose. SRI AUROBINDO: As they say in the Upanishad, the Supreme Being with the golden... grow very old want old ways to be followed? PURANI: But Tagore has himself gone off the beaten track. And what about his prose-poetry? What age-old way is there in it? In Gujarat, Kalelkar and Gandhi also say the same thing—that poetry must be for the masses. Kalelkar says that even the Ramayana was written for them. SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! PURANI: Yes, Kalelkar explains that Valmiki used to... n of the Ramayana. PURANI: He claims to have found evidence in the poem itself for his theory. SRI AUROBINDO: Where is it said in the Ramayana? If Valmiki meant it for the masses he kept his meaning a secret. Nor did he recite it to the masses. There were the professional reciters who carried it from door to door and popularised it. That is a different thing. PURANI: At the Ahmedabad Literary ...

... out. PURANI: In Tibet they have developed this occult science wonderfully well. (Purani gave some instances from Madame David-Neel's book) They call in a Lama during somebody's death to help the passage of the soul through the vital world. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the most dangerous passage. It is this world of which people usually speak when they refer to heaven and hell. PURANI: By some... 16 SEPTEMBER 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): England has destroyed 175 German planes. NIRODBARAN: A very large number, as on August I5th. PURANI: Yes. CHAMPAKLAL: It was also the I5th yesterday. PURANI: Anilbaran was asking, "How does the psychic carry its experiences into the next life?" SRI AUROBINDO: By the various subtle sheaths. After the dissolution of the... personality that renews itself. You can see in the case of the Lamas that it is not the same person. Purani gave an instance of how a Dalai Lama, as a boy, gave the correct details about a new hidden tea-bowl about which all others had forgotten. SRI AUROBINDO: I hear these Lamas die young. PURANI: About thirty or forty. SRI AUROBINDO: When one dies young, one comes back to life quickly and the ...

... Kapali Shastri also couldn't say anything about the Year of the Gods. PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: They have spoken about past events. SATYENDRA: In the Bhavishya Purana there are some prophecies. PURANI: They are more historical. SRI AUROBINDO: Apart from historical ones, there are others too. Isn't it so? PURANI: Yes, but they are more individual than general. The writer speaks there... France. Didn't the American consul say that Germany wants France's colonies and a little more? PURANI: France may establish a Fascist dictatorship. This present Government is all right-wing people. SRI AUROBINDO: Fascist dictatorship under a dictator? SATYENDRA: Has it been in the paper? PURANI: That is not necessary. One can surmise because they are right-wingers. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, in... wants Fascist dictatorship and the other wants to bring back monarchy. PURANI: Hitler may try a blockade on England. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, if he has control of the Mediterranean then it will be dangerous. NIRODBARAN: But before that the English navy has to be crushed—unless the French navy surrenders to Hitler. PURANI: The French navy and Italian submarines will be powerful enough —if America ...

... meal is not large. EVENING SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): Are the Russo-Finnish peace terms confirmed? PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: Why did the Finns fight then? PURANI: They perhaps expected that the Western Powers would help them. NIRODBARAN: The Allies say there was no official approach from the Finns. PURANI: That is nonsense. According to the League Covenant, they are... till they quarrelled over Communism. CHAMPAKLAL: Radhananda said Sarala was a newspaper. SRI AUROBINDO: But not a very reliable one. (Laughter) PURANI: She quarrelled with Kanai also. SRI AUROBINDO: She quarrelled with everybody. PURANI: She seems to be staying in a Protestant home in France. SATYENDRA: I had heard she was staying with a friend. SRI AUROBINDO: She was, but they started... country—but dying? PURANI: She was a great eater. SRI AUROBINDO: Both Suchi 3 and Sarala were great eaters. NIRODBARAN: They say the French usually are. SRI AUROBINDO: Not like the Germans. The Germans eat three times more. They are fond of good food. Plenty of French people are abstemious and temperate. The Nordic races are good eaters while the Latins are temperate. PURANI: The English also ...

... 26 JUNE 1940 PURANI: Hitler has presented a plan for the federation of continental Europe from which England and Russia will be barred. This man is full of ideas. SRI AUROBINDO: His New World Order? PURANI: Yes, Europe will be divided into three blocks: they will have no armies. SRI AUROBINDO: Wait a minute. How will the blocks be formed? PURANI: One block in the Balkans,... preserve their righteousness. (Laughter) PURANI: Dr. Rao has retired. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, now the P.A. will dance with joy. NIRODBARAN: But will the Congress Ministry come to power? SRI AUROBINDO: Don't see any chance now. EVENING PURANI: Japan says she recognises only the Bordeaux Government. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Of course! PURANI: There is unconfirmed news that Japan has... Indo-China. PURANI: In the paper there is a scheme of how the German parachutists will land in England, how they will be equipped, etc. NIRODBARAN: Parachutes have not been very successful in France. SRI AUROBINDO: No, most of the parachutists have been killed. In England they won't be successful at all. Parachutists are of no use unless they are followed up by the army. PURANI: It seems some ...

... AUROBINDO: Of course! PURANI: Benoy Sarkar writes in Rupam about art, that the subject matter is not important. Indian art has been always concerned with the subject while what matters in art is whether it is aesthetic or not. From that point of view, pattern, design, colour, line are things that count. SRI AUROBINDO: But that is decorative, not aesthetic. PURANI: Yes, he takes the current... 5 OCTOBER 1940 NIRODBARAN: Mandel is acquitted! SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he seems to have dangerous documeents against everybody. NIRODBARAN: Like Daladier! PURANI: Yes, Daladier said he would drag down many others with him. SRI AUROBINDO: If politicians were made responsible for their mistakes, then many would have to go to the scaffold. It is like the French... laha namaskar." 8 I don't see any connection. SRI AUROBINDO: Neither do I. I thought Girija idiotic when he was writing in Das's paper. "Jete nahi dibo" is about some daughter, isn't it? PURANI: Yes. The daughter doesn't allow her father to return to his place of activity and then he philosophises about love, etc. What is the connection there? SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know. He makes out ...

... Aurobindo started laughing .) Later, during his sponging, Sri Aurobindo spoke to Purani who had not been there in the morning. SRI AUROBINDO: Have you heard the story of Buddhist compassion in Aroume? PURANI: No; is it about some theft? I saw Amrita bustling about. SRI AUROBINDO ( after recounting the story to Purani ): Amrita out of Buddhist compassion paid the man's rickshaw fare. SATYENDRA:... EVENING PURANI: I asked Krishnalal whether he had any idea behind his buffalo. SRI AUROBINDO ( smiling ): Yes? What was his answer? PURANI: He says he wanted to paint a goat first. As he had heard that somebody was presenting a goat to the Ashram, he waited for confirmation. In the meantime he did this buffalo in a single day. SRI AUROBINDO: All the same he has done it well. PURANI: He wanted... Inspector of Police. It has proved the inefficiency of the Police. SATYENDRA: Dutt's stories have shed a flood of light on old events. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the light that never was on sea or land. PURANI: May I recount a tale about Barin now? Sudhir told me that once Barin came to his house as a guest. Sudhir asked him straight why he had left Pondicherry and to his straight question wanted a straight ...

... reminds me of a story. Nevinson went to see Tilak and said, "Mr.Tilak received me naked in his loincloth." (Laughter) At the end of this talk, Purani entered. NIRODBARAN: Purani seems to be bubbling with news. SRI AUROBINDO: What is the news? PURANI: No news today. I read two fine jokes on Soviet Russia in a book called Inside Europe . I looked up also what Lindbergh has said on the Soviet... such defeat we find them farther advanced in China than before. PURANI: They say the Japanese are not good in the air. They missed their targets many times. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know about that. The Japanese are good at concentrating on one thing at a time, but aeronautic requires concentration on many points at once. PURANI: Mussolini is asking all Italians to close down their firms in Djibouti... Soviet air-fleet. He says, "The Soviet air-fleet is not so powerful as is thought." SRI AUROBINDO: In what way is it not powerful? PURANI: He doesn't say anything more. SRI AUROBINDO: That is very vague. Does he mean that the aeroplanes are not made of sound material or that the pilots are not well trained? If that is all he says, he doesn't give any information. In the war between Russia and ...

... It may be septicaemia. Sometimes one has to make repeated examinations. For instance, in T.B. one has to search for the bacillus plenty of times. PURANI: Even if they find the bacillus, it may not be T.B. NIRODBARAN: That doesn't happen. PURANI: Why? In stools they sometimes find the T.B. bacillus. NIRODBARAN: Stools are a different matter. SRI AUROBINDO: It is thought that bacilli and... germs are only concomitant factors. PURANI: Otherwise I don't see why among people working in cholera epidemics some are attacked and others escape. I myself worked in their midst but nothing happened to me. SRI AUROBINDO: I lived in areas where there was plague all around. SATYENDRA: I have myself removed with my own hands plague-infected rats. PURANI: Medical men sometimes build up their... question of thinking, one can think as well that the Divine is in all. PURANI: He asks if one can't have more than one Guru and if it is disloyal to change one's Guru. SRI AUROBINDO: If one wants to get somewhere, it is better to have one Guru and stick to him. Only under exceptional circumstances can the Guru be changed. PURANI: He says he has visited many Gurus but nobody has satisfied him. ...

... The Secret of the Veda . I have to ask Purani. When Purani came in, Sri Aurobindo asked him the question. PURANI: I don't think you have written anything against Sayana's polytheism. However, I'll look up the introduction. SRI AUROBINDO: In the Hymns I have clearly held the gods to be realities and I have marked two or three passages saying so. PURANI: Going back to Armando Menezes and his... Hymns of the Atris probably. There you have distinctly spoken about the Vedic gods. PURANI: In The Life Divine's chapter on the Overmind, too. SATYENDRA: He can be referred to that chapter. PURANI: Better not refer him to it. He will say, "Now what is this Overmind?" NIRODBARAN: He is sure to misunderstand it. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know what he will not misunderstand. NIRODBARAN:... 1940 Talks with Sri Aurobindo 27 JANUARY 1940 PURANI: Anilbaran was asking if a contradiction of Basanta Chatterji could be written, pointing out his mistake or his ignorance. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that can be done. SATYENDRA: Who is this man? SRI AUROBINDO: He is Anilbaran's pet controversialist. (Laughter) SATYENDRA: He hasn't read your ...

... position. They will be quite isolated in Norway. PURANI: They are said to be carrying troops in aeroplanes. SRI AUROBINDO: That can't come to much. Only ships can carry enough. PURANI: If the Allies can set up a base somewhere there, it will be very advantageous for them: they can then attack German bases. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. PURANI: In Denmark the Germans can't do much because Denmark... any military genius. So long as Chamberlain is at the helm, nothing will happen. He applies only business intelligence to politics. PURANI: They have captured the Faroe Islands which appear to be strategically important. SRI AUROBINDO: Where are they? PURANI: Somewhere between Orkney and Norway. SRI AUROBINDO: Then they are of no importance. Hitler is not such a fool as to go and occupy... been some resistance. EVENING SRI AUROBINDO: ( looking at Purani): The French news says that one German officer was shot by Hitler's order because he criticised Hitler's invasion of Norway, saying that it was a blunder which would bring economic ruin to Germany and all sorts of faults and crimes would be imputed to Germany. PURANI: The German people will perhaps like it as a deserved punishment ...

... Nagaraj!" SATYENDRA: From the very beginning of the review it seems the writer has not understood Sri Aurobindo at all. PURANI: Possibly he had not even read the book. SATYENDRA: Even if he has read it, he doesn't appear to have understood it. Who is this Nagaraj? PURANI: Don't you know him? He is the critic of The Hindu. He is a Madhwaite. SRI AUROBINDO: He can't understand any new ideas... foolish. PURANI: May I read out Jayprakash Narayan's statement in court from The Harijan? No other paper has published it for fear of the Indian Defence Act. He says that both Germany and the Allies are fighting for new colonies. SRI AUROBINDO: That is not true for the Allies because they have more at present than they can chew and they are content with what they have. PURANI: He says that... that England is fighting to preserve her empire. SRI AUROBINDO: That is true. PURANI: "To us Indians," he continues, "both Nazism and British Imperialism are the same. There is no difference between the two." SRI AUROBINDO: That is humbug. PURANI: "So why should we fight for an Imperialism which denies our freedom, which holds the same domination over us? It is good that I have been arrested ...

... passion. PURANI: Perhaps Elie Faure makes that remark because of the satyrs. SRI AUROBINDO: That is quite another matter. The satyrs are symbolic. PURANI: He also argues, rather queerly, that the poisoning of Socrates, the banishment of Themistocles and the killing of other great men, were an expression of unrestrained passion. SRI AUROBINDO: What has that to do with art? PURANI: He means... stored away under Pavitra's cellar! PURANI: The question of the Ashram's wealth reminds me of X. I wanted some printing-blocks from him and he charged me so heavily that I had to write to Y to explain to X my financial position. SRI AUROBINDO: You should have written about the pocket expense you get, and said that your monthly income is two rupees. PURANI: Yes, I was just thinking of that. Anyhow... people leading active lives with the dhoti on. The Europeans are now putting on just shorts and a shirt—most utilitarian, I think. PURANI: Some Indian women also put on the European dress SRI AUROBINDO: Indian women's putting on the European dress is horrible. PURANI: Nowadays European women also go about in shorts. SRI AUROBINDO: Is that so? I understand they are giving stockings too. Yet at ...

... to obey." This shows a peculiar mind. I think this kind of people are a little cracked, (Looking at Purani) Don't you agree? PURANI (after a pause): Rajkot seems to have some reforms now. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, what has happened there? This Thakur must have done something very wrong. PURANI: Probably. It may be he is in debt and spending State money. He is an idiot. Virawalla also is now dead... 1940 PURANI: The morning paper says that two German generals are advancing with their infantry. And French and British units are trying to join and make a line of defence before they arrive. SRI AUROBINDO: It doesn't look as if those units will be able to do it. (After a time) This extension of the Maginot Line seems to be a myth. There are no fortifications anywhere. PURANI: After the... not exist. That is why the Germans have walked over easily to Amiens and other places. PURANI: The Allies seem to have stemmed the tide now. NIRODBARAN: In one sector they are badly placed, where the Germans are attacking from the rear. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know why they didn't provide for it. PURANI: The R.A.F. have done very good work. They are destroying all communications, tanks, depots ...

... The Koran also? PURANI: Yes, that is why other Muslim countries like Persia have no music. In India, after Akbar music dwindled among the Muslims; by Aurangzeb's order all court musicians were thrown out of employment. SRI AUROBINDO: What about painting? PURANI: Painting also. SRI AUROBINDO: Do they think that birds and animals can be representative of God? PURANI: Perhaps they consider... insult to Bengal. SATYENDRA: Italy is coming into the war. PURANI: Demanding Corsica! SRI AUROBINDO: France can as well claim Sicily saying that France conquered it at one time, and Sardinia because it is near her. PURANI: It seems Roosevelt is standing for the third time. SRI AUROBINDO: Is he? Is it decided? PURANI: Almost. Somebody whom Roosevelt was to back for President has given... it a luxury. SRI AUROBINDO: But that is inconsistent. They can have many concubines. Is that not a luxury? PURANI: Yes, four are sanctioned and that only in Arabistan. It may be due to a disproportionate number of men and women. SRI AUROBINDO: That has not been recorded. PURANI: In this visiting Muslim group only one or two are open to spiritual things and interested in them. One is a professor ...

... PURANI: Herbert was very enthusiastic about the League. SRI AUROBINDO: Naturally. He was directly affected by the League and we were indirectly affected through him because he translated our books. (Laughter) PURANI: He said the League had done a lot of good work; for example it has established an International Labour Department. SRI AUROBINDO: Labouring over nothing! PURANI: It has... EVENING As usual Purani entered with a strong military step and took a few deep breaths looking at Sri Aurobindo. Champaklal and Nirodbaran were stealing a smile at each other over him when suddenly Champaklal burst out laughing and Purani looked at him. Sri Aurobindo also looked and, raising his right hand, made a gesture as if to say, "Don't know what to make of it all." PURANI: My presence seems... self acts—without knowledge. Sri Aurobindo started taking his short walk in the room. When the walk was finished, Purani took up the thread of a past conversation. PURANI:: Between Hegel and Kant, poor Nirodbaran's question was lost. SRI AUROBINDO: What was it? PURANI: Nirodbaran says that, just like reasonings, experiences differ and come to different conclusions. How then can experience ...

... that all arrivals and departures, even for only two hours, must bereported to the police. Dr. Rao had not been reported yet. As soon as Purani entered the room, Shri Aurobindo commented on it. SRI AUROBINDO: Purani, have you reported this dangerous character? PURANI (smiling): No, I will do it tomorrow. Under cover of Sunday I was taking rest. Tomorrow I will go. (After a while) Is there any... Aurobindo 7 JULY 1940 PURANI: Baudoin is furious with the British. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. He says that this aggressive action of the navy is a blot on English honour—people who are entitled to honour! Have you heard that the banker and the Vice-Consul of Pondicherry are back? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: They are back and now the blockade will be withdrawn... care not to. PURANI: Alexandria is too far away, they might say. SRI AUROBINDO: They have their fleet in the Dodecanese; they could have sent it from there. DR. RAO: The Italians are said to be bad fighters. SRI AUROBINDO: Till now they haven't proven themselves very good. Of course there have only been raids and skirmishes till now. One can't judge from that. PURANI: Malta is such a ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 10 JULY 1940 PURANI: The Hindu says that Mittelhauser has resigned. SRI AUROBINDO: Resigned? He was relieved, they said. PURANI: No, the paper says he has resigned and that many French officers have joined the British. NIRODBARAN: Yes, mainly those of a high rank. There seems to be unrest in Syria. The Syrians... (Laughter) PURANI: No, people may say he worked for peace and reconciliation. During the Munich Agreement they were going to name streets after him. SRI AUROBINDO: Chamberlain Street and Umbrella Square? (Laughter) Peace? Yes, it was meant to be peace for our time, but a short peace. This is how people like Pétain and Chamberlain, who make mistakes, get a following. PURANI: The Italian navy... AUROBINDO: So long as Germany doesn't leave, no. PURANI: Now the motto is: "Work, Family and Fatherland" most mundane and stupid. It doesn't evoke any inner feeling at all, while "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity" acts like a mantra. SATYENDRA: Not stupid but mundane, as you say. SRI AUROBINDO: Work and Family will always be there. PURANI: Yes, so there is nothing new in it. SRI AUROBINDO: ...

... left under Japanese influence. After some time Purani brought in the subject of art. PURANI: Sammer has a queer idea. He says that nowhere in Europe and India was there any popular art. Only in Russia has it come now. Communism has brought in popular art, he says. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the stock-in-trade argument of all communists. PURANI: I was staggered. He has no knowledge of Indian history... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 19 JULY 1940 PURANI: Hitler has called the Reichstag and is delivering a Speech. SRI AUROBINDO: Instead of a triumphal entry, a triumphal speech? PURANI: He is going to offer peace to Britain. SRI AUROBINDO: He knows Britain won't accept. Why does he offer it? SATYENDRA: To keep a historical record that he... PURANI: I think an I.C.S. man called Hamid. SRI AUROBINDO: And she is Hamida? Just as Hindu names have Dev and Devi. Then followed talk about censorship, for all our letters were now being censored. SRI AUROBINDO: Even insured letters are being censored. It is better that it is being done by some special body instead of by the police. By the way, is Jaswant in prison now? PURANI: Yes ...

... AUROBINDO: I have no opinion (laughter) —as I don't know what it is. PURANI: He asks whether you consider the movement good. SRI AUROBINDO: Any movement could be good. PURANI: His books have been sent to you, it seems. Have you seen them? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they have been sent but I have not read them. PURANI: It seems he wants to do social service, village uplift work through his... News of Vinoba's arrest has been contradicted on today's radio. SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Has it been a great disappointment to you? (Laughter) A number of visitors came from Gujarat by a special train—on a pilgrimage. Some were known or related to Satyendra. Sri Aurobindo inquired as to who they were, Purani answered that some were Satyendra's elatives. SATYENDRA: They recognised me at once... Our family has this characteristic nose. (Laughter) PURANI: He says that in the delineation of the gods he finds such noses! SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but Nandalal is making them short and crooked now. Gurusaday Dutt is on a tour of South India promoting his Vratachari folk-dance movement and is expected here as Anilbaran's guest. PURANI: Anilbaran wants to know your opinion about Dutt's movement ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 15 JUNE 1940 PURANI: Haradhan is convinced that France will win. NIRODBARAN: Is he sending spiritual force? PURANI: Of course he is! SRI AUROBINDO: France might win after great suffering but she is likely to be overrun before that. NIRODBARAN: Already they are being chased by Germany. The Germans have bombed... from the communists. It is like Norway. PURANI: Yes, there the Germans knew the exact place where the Government had shifted. NIRODBARAN: What has happened to the communist prisoners now? Have they been released? SRI AUROBINDO: Why? They are in Britanny. I hope they will be sent to French Guiana before anything happens. (Laughter. Looking at Purani) By the way Hitler has said that he will... s in the Balkans and the Baltic. SRI AUROBINDO: Precautions won't help if Hitler is triumphant. (After a while to Purani) Do you know if there are still any people with political tendencies in the Maharshi's Ashram? Once it had revolutionaries like Ganapati Shastri. PURANI: I don't know but I don't think there are any such people now. Somebody in the Maharshi's Ashram holds the view that knowledge ...

... retort, "Oh, you are having Darshan every day and so you don't care." (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know myself. Maybe. (Purani was signalling from behind to Nirodbaran that there would be Darshan.) SATYENDRA: Purani knows. SRI AUROBINDO: He does? PURANI: There is a chance. The Mother perhaps doesn't want to say anything because many people may ask for permission. SATYENDRA: If... But the Mother hasn't approved. PURANI: The Mother has given permission. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh? PURANI: For Darshan. SRI AUROBINDO: No, he wanted to be a disciple. He was here during the mysterious stone-throwing without any apparent physical agency. He was very frightened and said that Barin and Upen didn't understand the seriousness of the matter. PURANI: I remember his joke about a Tamil... NIRODBARAN: Is he Bengali? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, his people have been settled in Bengal for a long time, like Motilal Roy's. PURANI: Prithwi Singh and some others are also practically Bengali. NIRODBARAN: But they don't follow Bengali customs. They speak Hindi at home. PURANI: That is not Hindi, I can tell you. SRI AUROBINDO: Then neither Hindi nor Bengali. One of their ladies wrote a letter to ...

... Germans have advanced through a gap in the British position. PURANI: So they left a gap for the Germans. SRI AUROBINDO ( laughing ): Yes, what on earth did they leave this gap for? PURANI: Perhaps in their retreat they couldn't keep up their line. SATYENDRA: Now the British say that they are in the town of Narvik. PURANI: First seven miles, then five, then two miles away! SRI AUROBINDO:... anything. PURANI: Gandhi seems to be in a conciliatory mood now—he will leave no stone unturned, he says. He will try to come to a compromise, perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: He ought to, unless Jawaharlal prevents him. PURANI: Jawaharlal is not satisfied. SRI AUROBINDO: He will never be satisfied. That is why I say unless he stands in the way. Gandhi is now under his influence. PURANI: But C.R... world. PURANI: When this war is over, there may again be a recrudescence of war after twenty-five years or so, unless some solution is arrived at. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, we have developed the system of nations and now we have to develop the unity of nations; unless they do that there will be always these recrudescences, till Nature forces us to come to a solution of the problem. PURANI: In The ...

... they won't stick to India. PURANI: If Hitler invades India, Gandhi will declare we are all non-violent. SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler will be delighted at it. PURANI: Yes, he will sweep off everybody with machine guns. Gandhi believes he can be converted. SRI AUROBINDO: It is a beautiful idea but not credible. Does anybody really believe in his non-violence? PURANI: I don't think so, except perhaps... don't know how he would be as a Cabinet Minister. PURANI: It is really a wonder how they thought of fighting the German army with such insufficient troops. SRI AUROBINDO: Not only insufficient but ill-equipped. They have no heavy guns, no aircraft, no mechanised units. NIRODBARAN: They have not given out the number of men sent. PURANI: The odds against them are three to one, says an American... They are about as good as the British forces who have only read of war in books. PURANI: It is the French who know how to fight. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, because they have conscription. Everybody is compelled to undergo training, and afterwards they are called up from time to time so that they won't forget. PURANI: Even the French Fathers had contempt for the English soldiers. During the last war ...

... challenged Shankara. PURANI: Yes, Vaishnavas, Ramanuja, Madhava, etc. After this Nirodbaran referred to Professor Amarnath Jha's lecture in the Hindu on Indian English where he has mentioned Gandhi's prose style as simple, sincere, almost Biblical. DR. MANILAL: I must say Gandhi has improved Gujarati literature remarkably. On this topic Manilal had an argument with Purani. All the recent stylists... MANILAL: What has happened to Kalelkar? He hasn't come back here after his first visit. SRI AUROBINDO: Harm has frightened him away. PURANI: What about B.K. Thakore? DR. MANILAL: Oh yes, he is a great stylist. (After a pause) He is a great drunkard, too. PURANI: I thought he had given up drink. DR. MANILAL: Oh no, he can't do without it. He used to go every day to a Bombay station and drink... in the Ashram. (Laughter) PURANI: Professor Indra Sen, who has come for the Philosophical Conference at Madras, says that nowadays anybody who has written on any subject, economics, social reform, is being called a philosopher. Gandhi and Tagore are being called philosophers. SRI AUROBINDO: Karl Marx is also a philosopher and all the communists too. PURANI: Yes. Indra Sen is asking if by ...

... 1940 PURANI: The Viceroy has issued a declaration that the expansion of the Council can't be delayed any more. India will have the right to frame her own constitution as soon as possible after the war. SRI AUROBINDO: Did he say that? PURANI: Yes, and he has invited Abul Kalam to see him. SRI AUROBINDO: But how is the constitution to be framed? What procedure? PURANI: He doesn't say... AUROBINDO: He has been dying for the last twenty years. When he came here, he spoke of it. PURANI: Even his stories are not very good. NIRODBARAN: Not true. He is considered one of the best story-writers. PURANI: I mean like Chatterjee. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but he is not a novelist. NIRODBARAN: No. PURANI: You have seen Patrika's review of Nishikanta's book? While Tagore has praised his ... he doesn't want to lead and the others refuse to follow him. (Laughter) PURANI: Perhaps there may be a conference of Premiers in which Rajagopalachari will be present. Now only Punjab and Bengal are left to decide. Sind also to some extent. SRI AUROBINDO: Sind's stand is very near to that of the Congress. PURANI: But the Princes may stand in the way. They ought to make a common cause. ...

... Das Gupta in Bengal, another lieutenant of Gandhi. PURANI: His is more of a personal attachment to Gandhi. SRI AUROBINDO: Not because of Gandhi's ideas? PURANI: Ideas are secondary; he is a lieutenant because of his attachment. The main thing is his personal attachment apart from any ideas. SRI AUROBINDO: Religious devotion? PURANI: Yes. SATYENDRA: There are many people like that who... philosophy. PURANI: Adwaitanand, too. Of course, such people are very few. SATYENDRA: Very few people have any clear idea about it. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. I am not speaking of those who come for Yoga. What about Veerabhadra? Where is he now? PURANI: In the town. I suppose the Vaishya Sabha is putting him up. SRI AUROBINDO: He ought not to have any difficulty as he is a Brahmin. PURANI: Yes, a... 17 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: Gandhi gave a long introduction about Vinoba, saying he is the most fitted and ideal non-violent worker, one who has understood and practised his non-violence in the true spirit. Vinoba declares that non-violence will bring about a revolution in the country. SRI AUROBINDO: Why speeches then? PURANI: They will be a preparation for successful ...

... NIRODBARAN: Stalin is already taking measures to protect himself in the Baltic. SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): Yes, what is this pact of non-aggression with Lithuania that Russia speaks of? Non-aggression against whom? Sending troops can only mean landing in Germany. PURANI: Yes, there was some non-aggression pact. Of course these are all excuses. SRI AUROBINDO: Stalin wants to fortify... by the Germans. There will be thorough Nazism. Doraiswamy will have a hard time. As for Y, he will be beaten to death. (Laughter) PURANI: Astrologers say that after the 20th of this month Hitler's decline will begin. SRI AUROBINDO: Which astrologers? PURANI: The Parsi one and somebody else also. Pavitra too knows astrology, but he did not try to see Hitler's horoscope. SRI AUROBINDO: He... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 16 JUNE 1940 PURANI: It was Tagore and not Sailen Ghose who appealed to Roosevelt yesterday. (Laughter) I don't know how Suvrata could confuse your name and Tagore's. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Perhaps because my name also has bin as in Rabindranath and the second syllable of Tagore has a similar sound to Ghose ...

... thought of exterminating the Poles wholesale. PURANI: The Polish lady who wrote to Ravindra has come back from Europe. She says she has first-hand knowledge of the condition in Poland—about what Germany has done. She prays to you for Poland's amelioration. SRI AUROBINDO: Poland's amelioration is not possible unless Hitler undergoes deterioration. PURANI: Hitler's entry into Rumania seems to be his... fronts while England can hardly spare her troops. PURANI: Japan is trying to be original: she says she wants peace with America. The three-Power pact is not against America! (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: I don't see how Japan can fight England and America when all her war supplies come from them. That is also why Spain can't join Germany. PURANI: N.R. Sarkar has given a lecture in Madura against... AUROBINDO: But if they don't do that there will be another war in twenty years' time. Something has to be done. PURANI: The best thing would be to march into Germany as they wanted to do in the last war. DR. RAO: People in Madras regard Italy as no more considerate than Germany. PURANI: For that reason Egypt has not declared war, they say. SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is said that the British are holding ...

... Aurobindo 8 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: German troops are pouring into Rumania, it seems. Do they anticipate a British invasion through it? SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is more a move towards the Balkans by Germany, if it is also true that Italy has concentrated troops in Albania against Greece. PURANI: But war on two fronts will be costly for Germany. SRI AUROBINDO:... spare unless Turkey joins and brings her troops. PURANI: Kalelkar has rearranged the Gita text leaving out some of the portions which according to him are not essential. And he gives each chapter a separate name: for example, Utthapana Yoga. SRI AUROBINDO: And Kalelkar Yoga? (Laughter) Nobody has so far tampered with the text of the Gita. PURANI: No, they have done so with the Ramayana and the... EVENING PURANI: America and Russia will check Japan in her imperialist policy in the East. SRI AUROBINDO: It seems they are not willing to go to war. They only want to help China so far. Somebody writing about Egypt says that it is the British who don't want Egypt to take any action against Italian attacks just now. I don't see why. They may have their reasons. PURANI: Kalelkar says ...

... poetry. PURANI: After all there aren't many artists here NIRODBARAN: Quite a lot: Krishnalal, Anilkumar, Nishikanto, Jayantilal. PURANI: Nishikanto is defunct. NIRODBARAN: Nonetheless he is an artist and there are others Champaklal, Sanjiban, etc., etc. PURANI: There are many musicians too Dilip, Sahana, Anilbaran. NIRODBARAN: Anilbaran? If he is a musician, so are you. PURANI: Anilbaran... the future creation, Sri Aurobindo himself not being a musician. SRI AUROBINDO: That is perfectly idiotic. PURANI: I think the fault lies with the musician himself. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Romen, for instance, would have been a very great musician, but he didn't apply himself. PURANI: The trouble is that when our musicians take up music they don't try to perfect it but take it up only as a means... idea or consciousness behind them? SRI AUROBINDO: They are directed by the universal or the Supreme Being. The consciousness comes from the universal which is ultimately directed by the Supreme. PURANI: Are they individualised? SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean by that? They are universal forces. For instance, the universal force of love seizes upon a man and he becomes a lover. When the force leaves ...

... 11 FEBRUARY 1940 PURANI: Paul Brunton has come out again with an article on Yoga in the Indian Review . SRI AUROBINDO: What does he say? PURANI: The same old thing—that Yoga must be practised for humanity, so that humanity may benefit. SRI AUROBINDO: He has always said that. PURANI: He says that now he is under the guidance of a great Yogi who... himself for the sake of money? PURANI: Yes. But he is contradicting himself, he says, for the sake of Truth. SATYENDRA: The trouble is that he has started being a teacher before being sufficiently a student of Yoga. PURANI: Wasn't he giving directions to people from the beginning? SRI AUROBINDO: He has formed a group of his own, I believe. PURANI: He doesn't accept the theory of Wo... will immediately be spotted. I wonder if he is hinting at you. SRI AUROBINDO: Me? But I have no eminent disciple! PURANI: What about Sir Akbar Hydari? SRI AUROBINDO: He is not exactly a disciple. SATYENDRA: Perhaps Brunton himself is a disciple eminent enough? PURANI: He also says that he is not after money. The proof he gives is that if he were, he would not be contradicting his own ...

... Aurobindo 6 APRIL 1940 PURANI: Nirod didn't quite understand how calligraphy... NIRODBARAN: First of all, what is calligraphy? Good hand-writing? SRI AUROBINDO: All good handwriting is not calligraphy. Calligraphy is artistic handwriting. Haven't you heard of illuminated manuscripts? PURANI: Chinese and Arabic books are very artistic, with beautiful borders... seat? Outside the body? Or in some gland? NIRODBARAN: In the mind. SRI AUROBINDO: Mind is an abstract term. PURANI: They will say, "In the subconscient". SRI AUROBINDO: That is psychoanalysis. There is also a gland psychology and another that runs everything together. PURANI: Jayantilal met Jung in Ceylon. He gave him your books to read, but he couldn't find much in them. Maybe because he... NIRODBARAN: "Foreword" is a misnomer, he says; it is a sort of blessing he wants. SRI AUROBINDO: A puff of blessing? PURANI: In order to sell well he must be modern. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, and publish in England, and moderns like Spender must recommend him. PURANI: Amal said he listened to H's radio talk on the Ashram. If one good statement was made, it was immediately counteracted by something ...

... suppress and oppress the Muslims. PURANI (after a lull) : Saravan has been accepted for military training. He was a reservist. SRI AUROBINDO: Why training? PURANI: These people are to be trained for three months and then either sent to Saigon or kept here. SRI AUROBINDO: There are enough troops in Saigon. Besides, in France they don't give training. PURANI: The first time he was rejected... 9 DECEMBER 1939 PURANI (after the sponging of Sri Aurobindo was over) : At least one member of the Muslim League Executive doesn't agree with Jinnah's statement yesterday that December 2 should be observed by all Muslims and even the other minorities as the day of liberation from the Congress regime. SRI AUROBINDO: Who is that? What's his name? PURANI: I have forgotten it. The Hindu... at times. PURANI: But France can't directly help Finland. SRI AUROBINDO: No, she can't, unless Sweden joins in and Norway too. Then not only France but also England can help effectively. NIRODBARAN: I wonder what Jinnah and his Indian Muslim will do when Russia attacks Mohammedan Asia. SRI AUROBINDO: He will hold meetings and shout or he will blame Congress for it. PURANI: He will blame ...

... 14 FEBRUARY 1940 PURANI: Some Chakravarthy, a final year medical student, has written to you through Nolini that his father Bhuban Mohan Chakravarthy had been your Bengali teacher. SRI AUROBINDO(extremely surprised) : How? When? Where? PURANI: That is the mystery. SRI AUROBINDO: My only Bengali teacher was Dinen Roy unless he had another name. PURANI: "Chakravarthy" and "Roy"... long before the son was born.. PURANI: He writes that he can produce a most authentic proof—a letter you have written to his father. SRI AUROBINDO: I? PURANI: Yes, and he can send the letter if you want. He has asked for a loan from you to carry out his studies. He will repay you afterwards. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, that is the reason! (After some time, to Purani) Have those articles been sent... sent off to the Indian Express for the special number of February 21? PURANI: I don't know. I shall ask Nolini. Is there anything wrong? SRI AUROBINDO: Radhanand, in his article on the Mother, has claimed that she is an Incarnation. That is something we have not said publicly. PURANI: Radhanand said that whatever he had written had been gathered from talks, etc. SRI AUROBINDO: The body of ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 23 SEPTEMBER 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (looking at Purani): Is Hitler waiting for the fog? PURANI: It seems he is more busy in the east settling Rumanian questions in the warm climate. Japan seems to have toned down. It must be due to the Anglo-American alliance regarding the Singapore naval base. SRI AUROBINDO:... end now. PURANI: The Egyptian cabinet is meeting to decide what Italy's intention could be. (Laughter) The President has already said that their intention is very clear, so they must act at once. SATYENDRA: Do they think the Italians are coming to embrace them? SRI AUROBINDO: Or perhaps they think that they will blow a kiss from Sidi Barani and withdraw. (Laughter) PURANI: We had a joke... AUROBINDO: Why from France? PURANI: It's from a medical firm. It was posted before the Armistice. SRI AUROBINDO: I see. But the firm may not exist now—like a star that has gone out although its light still comes to us. (Laughter) EVENING SATYENDRA: Plenty of people are writing to Doraiswamy about your war donation. They don't understand why you have done it. PURANI: Why? The reason was given ...

... Aptavakya and how to believe in it unless there is some proof to substantiate it? DR. MANILAL: But if Purani reports something you have said, can't it be taken as true? SRI AUROBINDO: It depends. It may or may not be true. Depends on the reporter. The report is not only from Purani, but from Purani to somebody else, and then from somebody to somebody again and so on! In that case the miracles that... all his past lives is also not true, not correct. SRI AUROBINDO: How to know whether they were correct or not? PURANI: Besides, who reports those stories? Is it Buddha himself? DR. MANILAL: Then all that is said about Krishna and Arjuna and the Gita can't be believed. PURANI: It is not necessary to believe everything. The point is whether or not the principle laid down there is true. SRI... Those thorns used to prick the banana tree so much— NIRODBARAN: Good Lord! Do you believe in these stories? DR. MANILAL: —but in spite of the pain and suffering the tree used to remain calm. PURANI: As a reward it was reborn as a Tirthankara's mother. SRI AUROBINDO: You are asked whether you believe in these stories. DR. MANILAL (looking at Nirodbaran): Why not? When there is no proof ...

... 23 MARCH 1940 PURANI: Laurence Binyon says that the dragon is a symbol of water. Water is everything; it forms into clouds and comes down as rain and therefore the dragon is a symbol of the Infinite. SRI AUROBINDO: Why "therefore"? The dragon may symbolise the Infinite by being a symbol of the sky. PURANI: In China the Infinite is symbolised by the dragon... come from prehistoric animals like the dinosaurs. PURANI: Binyon says that what Wordsworth has realised in poetry, China and Japan have done in art, manifesting the Spirit in Nature. NIRODBARAN: China also? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, both have the same source of inspiration. Chinese art is greater, Japanese more subtle and perfect in detail. PURANI: Binyon writes that they lay a strong emphasis on... return from Japan bring genuine articles. PURANI: Binyon also says about European religious paintings by Tintoretto and others that there is too much action in them. In a picture of heaven, for instance, one feels quite outside heaven! SRI AUROBINDO: That is just what I recently said. Mrs. Raymond, hearing it, remarked that I knew nothing of art. PURANI: She doesn't see anything in Indian art. ...

... liberation in my previous birth? SATYENDRA: If you believe that, it is all right. PURANI: When Sri Aurobindo said that Y has a remarkable mind, Nirodbaran said: "I have a remarkably thick physical crust." SRI AUROBINDO (smiling) : It is good to be remarkable in some way. NIRODBARAN: I fully agree. PURANI: Nirodbaran doesn't seem to be satisfied with your answers. SRI AUROBINDO: "Sarvadharman... create a world for you to live and move in. Feeling is not enough in order to be creative. PURANI: Abercrombie also says that a poem should reproduce the experience. SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on what you mean by experience. An idea or a thought may be an experience; feeling is also experience. PURANI: In comparing Shelley and Milton, Abercrombie says that Prometheus Unbound does not have as... anything there. But the theme is equally great. PURANI: Abercrombie says that Milton has created living pictures of Satan and Christ. SRI AUROBINDO: Satan is the only character he has created. The first four books of Paradise Lost are full of creative force. But Christ? I disagree with Abercrombie there. Milton has not created Christ. PURANI: About Dante he says he has created Beatrice and ...

... with emotion. At this point Purani came. PURANI (after a while) : I verified the story of the bull. The bull's name is Bholanath. Lalji himself has seen it perform. It can even pick out a man whose name has been pronounced to it. If a photograph is hidden in somebody's pocket and the bull is asked to detect the man, it can. SRI AUROBINDO: By name also? PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: That... perhaps. PURANI: It is also called Bholanath. DR. BECHARLAL: The giving of a person's name could have been prearranged with the party. PURANI: How? Even in an unknown crowd, the bull can do that feat. SRI AUROBINDO: Animals have vital intuition and they find things out by it, as man does by thought. You know about the horses being trained to do arithmetic in Germany. PURANI: Yes, Maeterlinck... AUROBINDO: Yes, where is the letter? Then the letter was produced. Sri Aurobindo translated it into English and said, "You can't say more than that." NIRODBARAN: Purani is also triumphant because he thought Tagore would write again. PURANI: Yes, I felt that. Tagore is very polite in that way. Anyhow he has been forced to admit Nishikanto's quality. SATYENDRA: In view of his first letter, there ...

... will do. He is a great bluffer and may keep on bluffing as bluffing is very pleasant to him. (laughter) PURANI: Italy has contempt for Germany. SRI AUROBINDO: Not contempt, but hatred. (Laughter) PURANI: Spengler supports this instinct of barbarism. SRI AUROBINDO: Does he? PURANI: Yes, he says that when a race goes down, it is by this instinct that it rises up again. By this instinct... socialistic State, which means that instead of individualistic capitalism, the State will be capitalistic. PURANI: Yes. like, "Give us your cows. We will give you milk." SRI AUROBINDO: No, "Give us your cows and buy the milk." (Laughter) In Russia one has to earn one's very life. PURANI: There they have now also made a discrimination in wages. And if anyone has more money, he can deposit it... educated to read more. But what will the authors do with their money? Of course they can make a wise gift of it to the State. PURANI: The Russian Government also gives more wages to the people if their output is more. SRI AUROBINDO: That again is against Communism. PURANI: One thing in favour of Socialism is that it promises to give bread and work to people. SRI AUROBINDO: That is easy; it only ...

... to be in a mood to talk. Almost all the time he listened to us. PURANI: Pétain is being called the Führer of France. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he has realised the dream of his eighty-four. NIRODBARAN: They say that a major part of the French [fleets] has fallen to the British. SRI AUROBINDO: A large part. EVENING PURANI: The German radio says that the Pétain Government has cut off all ... British. One of them even wanted to commit suicide. (Laughter) PURANI: I told Dr. André about Bulloch who has been earnest and sincere and gone to war willingly. He said that because he was a technician he had to go. SRI AUROBINDO: That is not correct. He has gone because he wants to fight, wants to get a promotion. PURANI: Some people say that conditions in France must be all right. The peasants... peasants must be getting enough food, otherwise they would have revolted. SRI AUROBINDO: Who are these people? PURANI: Some townspeople. SRI AUROBINDO: Then the peasants in India must be very prosperous because they don't revolt. (Laughter) PURANI: I told them that in Germany people had to be on war rations for seven years. NIRODBARAN: Due to this blockade we shall also suffer. ...

... silence." Purani had gone out and, on returning, heard the remark. Sri Aurobindo, addressing him, said, "I was wondering where you had suddenly vanished." Purani replied "I went to see the Mother. I asked her if liquorice root could be tried for your cough. It is very good for it." After one or two questions from Sri Aurobindo about liquorice the talk got really started with a question by Purani. PURANI:... Here Purani brought in the topic of Oundh State and described the reforms the chief of the State was introducing. They seemed to be something like Sri Aurobindo's own ideas. SRI AUROBINDO: What provision is there for autonomous government in villages? PURANI: The village panchayats have considerable power. SRI AUROBINDO: But suppose the people want socialism or communism? PURANI: The chief... he had bought for one lakh. Purani then brought in the question of the Congress ministry, saying that Nariman had been elected again as a Congress member by Vallabhai Patel. He had been punished for betrayal of Congress in the election campaign. SRI AUROBINDO: That is not betrayal but indiscipline. Dr. Kher, the Bombay Premier, seems to be a solid man. PURANI: The Congress ministry appears ...

... too must go. PURANI: I think Satyendra was not talking of that. SATYENDRA: I was referring to our difficulty. SRI AUROBINDO: And I was referring to mine. (Laughter) Several people here make it their main business to get hold of people and make them do Yoga. Their enthusiasm is something enormous. However much you may check them, they can't help propagandising, PURANI: Shouldn't something... (Laughter) CHAMPAKLAL: I hear he is holding classes in the town and giving lectures on Yoga. PURANI: He is explaining everything on a blackboard. SRI AUROBINDO: What? Explaining the Brahman on a blackboard? As for his lecturing, he used to inflict letters on me never less than thirty pages! PURANI: That means he had some consideration for you. To Reddy, the Minister of Madras, he wrote a letter... him to release a prisoner! SRI AUROBINDO: I wonder how the Minister found time to go through his letter. PURANI: The Minister wrote back regretting he had no time to read it. His secretary may have given him the list. SRI AUROBINDO: Poor secretary! I sympathise with tea. PURANI: One day Amrita told X that Mother had instructed all gate-keepers not to sit on the chairs or read or write when ...

... ed together till 7:00 or thereabouts. So Nirodbaran was obliged to massage Sri Aurobindo's leg after 7:00 which left hardly any time for conversation. This evening Purani began telling Sri Aurobindo about Jean Herbert's wife. PURANI: She is collecting Sister Nivedita's letters in order to publish them. In one of them it seems to be said that you gave Nivedita the charge of editing Bande Mataram... getting that news I wrote the article "My Political Will" which stopped my arrest. PURANI: In one of her letters Nivedita says that Vivekananda tried to dedicate her to Shiva but found her not ready. SRI AUROBINDO: How not ready? Not ready means either unwilling or not fit to fulfil the conditions. PURANI: Perhaps unwilling. SRI AUROBINDO (after a pause) : We were talking about Jainism yesterday... the Jains do those violent Tapasyas with the idea of transcending Nature and conquering it and not from the idea of world-illusion? PURANI: That's right. SRI AUROBINDO: Then the aim is the same as ours in some respects: only the method is different. PURANI: But how does that explain Lajpat Rai's sense of illusion? SRI AUROBINDO: No, it doesn't. His sense of illusion may have been seen from ...

... different moods. PURANI (showing a book) : Abhay has given this Vedic concordance to us. A man is bringing out the Vedas at a very cheap rate—five rupees for the three Vedas. SRI AUROBINDO: We should get a copy then. PURANI: He will send it, I think. SRI AUROBINDO: To me or to the library? PURANI: To you. SRI AUROBINDO: Then it won't go to the library. (Laughter) PURANI: The library... had to give way. NIRODBARAN: What about the Nizam's reforms? When do they come into operation? PURANI: I don't know. He seems to be thinking of an independent kingdom and of being a king like the king of England. SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to include Berar also—it seems very easy! PURANI: He has plans of conquering India too after the British have left. SRI AUROBINDO: But he seems to have... that. NIRODBARAN: You seem to mean that the divine realisation is quite possible in this life. PURANI: Everything is possible. NIRODBARAN: Then why not the supermind? SRI AUROBINDO: You mean you are within reach of the Divine? Satyendra couldn't give an answer and began to smile. PURANI: I heard of a chhaya-jyotish (shadow-astrologer) who by measuring the shadow of a person and then ...

... 1940 PURANI: A poet friend of mine has written that he met X and was impressed by him. He found X to have illimitable Bhakti for the Mother and you. SRI AUROBINDO: Illimitable? Well, X had a strange way of showing it. PURANI: Then my friend writes that X has gone very deep down in his consciousness. SRI AUROBINDO: It is always possible to go down. (Laughter) PURANI: Here is a letter... disagreeable. It is an emanation of the Self and it can't be an illusion. One has to find one's fulfilment in it or through it. PURANI: After all, a poet has the right to take some liberty. NIRODBARAN: Dilip says that this kind of liberty is not permitted. PURANI: Why not? He himself has taken liberties with the language in his Anami, that are grammatically impossible. About one expression... the chickens in the neighbourhood. (Laughter) I don't know what happened to it afterwards. PURANI: The second volume of your Life Divine is likely to come out in August. Many chapters have already been sent to the Press. SRI AUROBINDO: Who puts all the interrogation marks on the proofs? PURANI: If it is the first proof, then somebody from Calcutta may be putting them. Otherwise people who ...

... independent policy in the East. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. She has no claim to make in China. PURANI: It seems according to N.S.N. that on 27th May the Japanese Army was routed by the Chinese. SRI AUROBINDO: Who writes that? PURANI: Some military correspondent. SRI AUROBINDO: With the Chinese? PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: Can't be believed! The Japanese claim that only eighty thousand Japanese... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 17 JULY 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (smiling and addressing Purani): Hitler's hope of a triumphal march into England is diminishing day by day. PURANI: Yes, there is yet no sign of any preparation to attack. SRI AUROBINDO: I see only two ways possible—either landing troops in spite of the British navy or an attack by air... accepted, perhaps Hitler's hope would have been fulfilled. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. They appreciated his proposal but couldn't consider it. PURANI: Churchill has made a very fine speech. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he was inspired. PURANI: Exact, precise and summing up the situation very well. NIRODBARAN: But he takes good care not to say a word about India—all Europe, the continent, America ...

... compromise. PURANI: Rajagopalachari also seems to be in favour of some settlement. SRI AUROBINDO: He is a practical man. PURANI: I don't know how Churchill's offer to France of one nationality will work. Two nations temperamentally so different! SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Yes, the French will say one thing, and the English will nod their heads to quite the opposite. PURANI: And France won't... not applying their practicality to India. PURANI: They may not yet have felt the necessity. SRI AUROBINDO: Pétain and Weygand are inelastic and too old. Hitler is neither practical nor a man of ideas. Still he is very successful because of his remarkable inspirations. NIRODBARAN: Hitler has not yet sent any reply to France's peace offer. PURANI: He will be more cunning now in the face of... Unless there is a revolt in the Cabinet the outlook is bad. These people ought to be shot for the betrayal of France. PURANI: In Africa the Italians are not faring very well. SRI AUROBINDO: No, the Africans don't seem to be willing to give their lives for the Italians. PURANI: Sammer still holds that if France declared herself communist, the Russians would attack Hitler and come to help France ...

... becomes of diplomacy? PURANI: He has only declared war, not started any attack. NIRODBARAN: Why don't the Allies take the initiative? SATYENDRA: Their hands are full with the defence. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. PURANI: He may perhaps invade Corsica with aeroplanes or land parachutes. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think so. That requires dash and daring. PURANI: Hitler may have kept off... Sri Aurobindo 11 JUNE 1940 The radio news: Italy has joined the war. SRI AUROBINDO (looking at Purani): So Mussolini has butted in? When he sees that Germany is winning he comes to share the spoils. PURANI: Yes. It's a jackal policy. But he says it is according to his understanding with Hitler. NIRODBARAN: Understanding? No, he says pledge. ... couldn't fight Germany. PURANI: There was Russia. Both France and Russia could have combined and England would have had to come in later. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. NIRODBARAN: Natesan was saying that Daladier has been driven out because he was pleading for surrender—that is the rumour. SRI AUROBINDO: Rumour? May be. You have seen that Britain has left Norway? PURANI: Yes. NIRODBARAN: From ...

... 19 JUNE 1940 PURANI: The Berlin paper says that when Germany asked for peace in the last war, the Allies did not reply for six weeks. Why should they now expect a reply in two days? Let them remember Versailles. SRI AUROBINDO: Then what the Mother says may be true, that the Germans will keep silent so that the French Army may be crushed in the mean time. PURANI: Churchill says in his... PURANI: Besides, the British have to keep a sufficient number to protect their own land. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. Otherwise there would be a great danger. No, no, it is all French over-sensitiveness and suspiciousness. This is exactly what happened during the reign of Napoleon III - different political parties playing at governing the country and that is how he was defeated. PURANI: There... some confusion. Pavitra may have made some mistake. Churchill is usually very clear in his statements. NIRODBARAN: In some papers there was a complaint against inadequate supplies to France. PURANI: That can't be true after Churchill's speech. SRI AUROBINDO: No. They sent three-and-a-half lakhs to Flanders and their best troops. After the Battle of Flanders, they sent only three divisions ...

... questions. In that puzzled mood; Nirodbaran once looked up and Sri Aurobindo looked at him. Suddenly Nirodbaran burst into laughter and the rest joined in. Finding an opening or an inspiration, Purani began. PURANI: There is something interesting about snoring in the Sunday Times today. Someone says that snoring is the reaction of the subconscient against some pressure one does not like. SRI AUROBINDO:... because he is protesting against someone's presence he doesn't like? Or that one can't snore unless there is someone present whom one doesn't like? NIRODBARAN (to Purani) : Were you attracted by that question because of our snoring? PURANI: Yes, especially yours, I believe; whenever I come, find you snoring. SATYEYNDRA: That means Nirodbaran doesn't like your presence! CHAMPAKLAL: No, he snores... Purani's arrival. (Laughter) As the talk on snoring didn't proceed further, Purani began quoting from the Sunday Times about Middleton Murry, where it was said that he had come to believe in Gandhi's non-violence and that because of Hitler he had become a believer in God. SRI AUROBINDO: How is that? PURANI: I don't know; he says he finds Hitler an anti-Christ after that murder of eighty ...

... Talks with Sri Aurobindo 6 JULY 1940 PURANI: There is a German order that ships must keep twelve to twenty miles off the French coast. I suppose it may apply to colonies too. SRI AUROBINDO: Even if the ships come nearer, what can Pondicherry do? It has no guns. PURANI: Mohanlal says he saw three sepoys with guns on the pier. SRI AUROBINDO: To shoot... (Laughter) EVENING PURANI: There was a great rush at the bank to exchange French notes for British money. NIRODBARAN: So Pondicherry is becoming a British colony? And diplomatic relations also seem to have been cut off. SRI AUROBINDO: The French charge d'affaires in London has resigned. But why "resigned"? They are called back in such cases. Is it a new term? PURANI: Perhaps he is in sympathy... everybody will be under Hitler. Spain is practically under his thumb. That is the New World Order. I suppose. Only North Africa will be out of it, since it is being guarded by the British navy. PURANI: I suppose Turkey will consult Russia before yielding. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Everybody is climbing down. Have you noted that Cordell Hull said that America won't participate European politics? America ...

... I thought it might have been in the Sunday Times, too, when Purani said that. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Purani's subconscious thought that the Sunday Times was more respectable than the Indian Express. (Laughter) EVENING PURANI: Gandhi's freedom of speech hasn't been granted by the Viceroy. SRI AUROBINDO: No. PURANI: Gandhi takes up some theoretical issue. C.R. would have been... 1 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: Hitler hasn't given up the idea of attacking Britain. He is concentrating his forces in Norway. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. About 200,000 troops are practising jumping into the sea from the rocks! Is it a preparation, in case of reversal, to swim back from England? Any news about Gandhi's second interview with the Viceroy? PURANI: No, there is conjecture that... Bose. How can any government allow that? PURANI: The Jinnah-Viceroy correspondence is out. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is full of impossible demands. The Viceroy has answered to them, "Yes, I note them. We will consider them". All the time he must be thinking what a fool Jinnah is that he doesn't understand what impossible demands he is making. PURANI: Gandhi speaks of freedom of speech. But even ...

... five or six now. PURANI: T was complaining of the ill-health of the children. SRI AUROBINDO: Both the parents suffer from ill-health, so their children must be like that. But such people live long. CHAMPAKLAL: G also started some insurance business with motor cars, etc. It failed. PURANI: He was also with Gandhi. SRI AUROBINDO: What was he doing there? PURANI: Harijan work. SRI... to the subject of X's capacity in business. Purani said that he had been on the point of being dismissed from the Navajeevan Office. He also had a tailoring shop which failed. SRI AUROBINDO: Anything he touches will be a loss. He has a genius for that. He can work under somebody who will oblige him to work. Has he produced any more children? PURANI: I don't know. SRI AUROBINDO: He already... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 18 OCTOBER 1940 There was miscellaneous talk about this and that. It started with the news of Vinoba's arrest. We said that Purani must be very glad of' the news. Then the talk was about the business capacity of different persons. There was some discord, between Vinoba and his co-worker Harkar in the Gandhi Ashram. Vinoba seems ...

... Very little talk these days. PURANI: Hyderabad wants to be an independent sovereign state after the war and has asked the British to withdraw their forces and treat it as an equal. It says that if India gets Dominion Status, Hyderabad should become an independent sovereign state. SRI AUROBINDO: An independent dominion within a dominion? PURANI: No, an independent state altogether. ... SRI AUROBINDO: Why does Hyderabad wait for the war? It can do that now. PURANI: Yarjung Bahadur with his assembly is the leader. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, him? It's an assembly of idiots! But what will happen is that the Nizam will be the first to be kicked out. He knows it very well. PURANI: He claims that Hyderabad has always been independent. But in fact in five battles with the Mahrattas,... contributing but Sir Akbar who is forcing him to contribute. Otherwise the Government knows very well what the Nizam's views are. PURANI: Sir Akbar will be coming here now. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. NIRODBARAN: Nripen Sarcar is coming too. So they will meet. PURANI: It seems Sarcar has suddenly turned religious. He has employed Sanskrit pundits and is learning Sanskrit. SRI AUROBINDO: I see ...

... he means. CHAMPAKLAL: I think A wants to know whether what he says is a fact. K was telling me—she studies with P—that she understood it in A's sense while Purani doesn't agree. Purani says it can't be true. SRI AUROBINDO: Does Purani mean to say that only when one is perfect the Divine will accept the offering and give the reward? Then it would be very difficult for any human being. A is quite... "What we give in dross we get back in gold." A means that even if our devotion, our love for the Divine, is not pure at the beginning, the Divine accepts them and gives the rewards. Purani is unable to accept it. Purani says, "The sentence should begin: 'What we give up as dross...' " SRI AUROBINDO(after a little while) : Well? NIRODBARAN: "Well? Which is correct? SRI AUROBINDO: It may be... conference between the two great powers—X and Z? (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: I don't know. I haven't met X. I meet him only once a week. PURANI: Then he will complain about you too. NIRODBARAN: On the contrary, it is he who is not available now. PURANI: Then he is not doing Sri Aurobindo's Yoga either. ...

... DECEMBER 1939 PURANI: It seems Sarkar has resigned on the minority question. He objected to the last clause of the Government resolution which says that no further political development should be made without the full consent of the minorities. Nehru and Sir Stafford Cripps say that the British Government is not trying for democracy. SRI AUROBINDO: Then for what? PURANI: For its own self-interest... disobey them. PURANI: Kant speaks also of heteronomy and gives the maxim that one must follow only that rule which one can make a universal law. SRI AUROBINDO: His idea of freedom is like the Sanskrit sloka: "Everything under one's control is happiness, everything under another's control is sorrow." But the Gita's idea is to go beyond oneself and one's own freedom. PURANI: Yes. Sisir Maitra... didn't reply but continued to smile. PURANI: Perhaps you are thinking, "Where is this psychic gentleman hiding?" NIRODBARAN: That would be more in Dr. Manilal's vein. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing) : Dr. Manilal's psychic gentleman: too apt to take medicines for coming forth. SATYENDRA (after a while) : The psychic or the Divine is like dictator. PURANI: How? SRI AUROBINDO: It is more like ...

... Mother has seen this book in the original form and she says that anything could be made out of anything from it. PURANI: As from the Rigveda? NIRODBARAN (to Satyendra) : So you see. SATYENDRA: See what? NIRODBARAN: You said the supramental is still very far off. PURANI: It may be tomorrow. SATYENDRA: How? What are you driving at? NIRODBARAN: This man's prophesy about the new race... (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Quite welcome. PURANI: He has brought out new planes. Uranus SRI AUROBINDO: And Pluto. Uranus, he says, is more psychic in nature. NIRODBARAN: How can that be when Stalin is under Uranus? SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? Dictators sometimes bring about profound changes. Daladier also. It is the planet of the dictators. PURANI: Mussolini too. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; this... other gods have emanated. PURANI (after a long break in the talk) : In Gurukul they have an exercise or drill of laughter. When students are asked to laugh, they have to laugh. SRI AUROBINDO: Not cry? In Baroda the military department instituted a drill of urination. (Laughter) As soon as the order was passed, everybody would urinate together. EVENING PURANI: J has sent a letter saying ...

... Space. Purani noted, in connection with the complicated mathematical formulas involved, that scientists had first thought Science would be understood by everybody. Now only the scientists can understand anything about Science. SRI AUROBINDO: They are becoming metaphysical physicists. It is like poetry. Dr. Leavis said that poetry would be understood by fewer and fewer people gradually. PURANI: Scientists... knows when creation began. PURANI: They say, for instance, that from a machine some energy is always lost, and for that reason a machine can't operate perpetually. SRI AUROBINDO: That is about man-made machines. Nature is cleverer than man and, besides, in future machines may be created which will go on perpetually. What happens to the energy that is lost? PURANI: It goes to the common stock... available. PURANI: When you burn coal for energy, you can't get the coal back. SRI AUROBINDO: That is true about coal because it disintegrates. Sri Aurobindo also said that the Quantum Theory was tending towards our Indian Vayu theory without the scientists knowing it. About the deflection of starlight towards the sun, he asked: SRI AUROBINDO: Why should it curve towards the sun? PURANI: Because ...

... any definite information. PURANI: People say he did a lot of Tapasya at the time he was a parivrajaka, a wandering Yogi. SRI AUROBINDO: Was it this kind of Tapasya Ramakrishna meant? SATYENDRA: Vivekananda had a sort of Nirvanic experience. He has himself mentioned something about it. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that experience is the only one definitely known. PURANI: He also had a vision at Amarnath... : That doesn't matter. PURANI: Lok na Pok! NIRODBARAN: Then we shalln't know all that you know? SRI AUROBINDO: Well, realise first what I have written. NIRODBARAN: Isn't it possible for those who live in a spiritual consciousness to know about the realisations of other Yogis? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. If one establishes a special contact, it is possible. PURANI: Vivekananda, in his writings... later invention. PURANI: The Tibetan Lamas are believed to be in a direct line from Buddha. But to find the true Dalai Lama is not easy at all. You know about the various signs by which he has to be recognised? SATYENDRA: Is Zen Buddhism alive in Japan? SRI AUROBINDO: Oh yes. Lady Batesman is going there to study it. The Zen Buddhists have a very severe discipline. PURANI: I am told that in ...

... thinking, or perhaps just in a mood of silence. Nirodbaran said to Purani, "Come out with your news." Purani kept smiling. After a few minutes Sri Aurobindo looked at us and broke into a spontaneous smile. Then Nirodbaran started speaking. NIRODBARAN: Purani seems to have some news. SRI AUROBINDO: Then why doesn't he blurt it out? PURANI: No, nothing today. SRI AUROBINDO: Well, there is a cure... JANUARY 1939 In the morning, during the sponging, Champaklal and Purani were engaged in killing flies. They were making a clapping sound. Champaklal burst into laughter. We reported the cause of the laughter to Aurobindo. SRI AUROBINDO: This is not Ahimsa. Champaklal should be sent to Vinoba at the Gandhi Ashram. PURANI: Oh, he will be given severe punishment. SRI AUROBINDO: He should... Government going to inaugurate Federation? PURANI: The early part of 1940. That is why they are trying their best to bring the Congress into a settlement. SRI AUROBINDO: The early part of 1940 is too soon. They have hardly a little more than a year in hand. Within such a short period they have to rope in the Princes and come to terms with the Congress. PURANI: Bhulabhai Desai went to England many ...

... have gone very deep. Does he know the source of his voices? PURANI: He says that they come from Overmind. SATYENDRA: That is your term, Sir. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. (Laughter) PURANI: According to S he goes to the Truth above the mind and hears the voices. SRI AUROBINDO: From the Truth-Consciousness? (Laughter) PURANI: Yes. By Overmind he means anything above the mind. He has many... inner being which are very difficult to distinguish. PURANI: In external affairs too he is guided by his voices, for example, in connection with changing houses. He gets warnings about accidents also. SRI AUROBINDO: Such voices are good for the external life and they can be beneficial but they don't carry one far in the inner life. PURANI: And this voice about special personality? I can't believe... AUROBINDO: The man has force and a great ambition but he has not gone very deep. That was Mother's impression. PURANI: When V went back from here S asked him to take initiation from him. V refused, saying "I have had my initiation." SRI AUROBINDO: S has the ambition to be a Guru. PURANI: It's very strange he didn't feel anything else here, while Ganapati who is also not a disciple felt a higher ...

... are to give me a chance to get murdered." EVENING SRI AUROBINDO ( addressing Purani ): The Ashram has been declared a nest of pro-Nazis and pro-Communists by your friend the consul. He says he can even produce documents. NIRODBARAN: Schomberg? PURANI: Yes. NIRODBARAN: A nice friend you have. PURANI: He is quite capable of this. I haven't seen him for a long time. Most probably the... contact with the main body of the French troops. Where are the troops? What are they doing? SATYENDRA: They may come in at the end. PURANI: The British Government has taken very strong measures. NIRODBARAN: They say it has turned Socialist and Communist. PURANI: This is due to the Labour influence, probably. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. From individual liberty to totalitarian Socialism must be a great... towards India. But if Y goes on with such talk, evidently he doesn't care whether the Ashram should continue to exist. PURANI: D also has such ideas and finds it difficult to dislodge them. SRI AUROBINDO: You reported the Mother as saying something to Nolini. What was it? PURANI: She said that if India were to get her freedom now, it would be catastrophic for her. SRI AUROBINDO: The Mother didn't ...

... He joined the Movement in 1908. SRI AUROBINDO: But what happened to him in 1926? NIRODBARAN: I don't know. SRI AUROBINDO ( addressing Purani ): When was the Ashram started? PURANI: In 1926. SRI AUROBINDO ( laughing ): There you are! PURANI: It is like Spengler's fitting facts to theories. I had again a talk with Doraiswamy. He heard from Nolini that the Mother has said that at... months of the war. PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: That was during Daladier's time. That is just like Daladier. He talks more than he does. So he has been politely pushed out. PURANI: He did not perhaps calculate an attack through Belgium.. SRI AUROBINDO: Calculations always go wrong. It is said that Russia is panicky and Stalin upset over Hitler's success. PURANI: Yes, before also there... The Allies are trying to cut off the German petrol supply by destroying their communications and depots. PURANI: They may still get it from Rumania through old contracts. SRI AUROBINDO: No, Rumania has stopped all supply. By supplying oil she would invite her own invasion. PURANI: Even without receiving oil, Germany may attack. SATYENDRA: Then better to be attacked without supplying ...

... 20 MAY 1940 PURANI: Hitler's declaration that before August 15 the war has to be finished and peace agreed upon seems significant. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the sign that he is the enemy of our work. And from the values concerned in the conflict it should be quite clear that what is behind him is the Asuric, the Titanic power. PURANI: It is strange how he takes his decisions... surely it knows that the work here is against its own interests? SRI AUROBINDO ( laughing ): Of course. PURANI: Is it only one Being or a troop? SRI AUROBINDO: There are more than one, but this is a very powerful Being. Have you read Paul Richard's Lord of the Nations ? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: I believe it was not published. He was in communion with this Being and the plans and methods... physical science. And Hitler has destroyed human civilisation wherever he has gone—as in Poland. PURANI: Christianity and all religion seem to be his targets. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. What he may want is Ludendorf's religion—the Norse religion of a primitive type where primitive instincts are worshipped. PURANI: Do these Beings recognise that there are higher divine powers? SRI AUROBINDO: It depends ...

... any such criticism in Gujarat against Pujalal? PURANI: No, not yet. SRI AUROBINDO: You mean Gujarat is not modern enough? PURANI: Perhaps not. Besides, two modern Gujarati poets have come here and they are impressed by what they have seen. Purani then gave a long description of the modern tendency of Gujarati poetry. EVENING PURANI: Dara has a novel suggestion for solving the Hindu-Muslim... with it. The Khaksars are trying to do that. PURANI: Yes. And J seems to be financing their movement. SRI AUROBINDO: Now he has asked them to suspend it and is communicating with the Government to remove the ban. PURANI: Yes, it is he who was behind the trouble in Hyderabad. He stood against Sir Akbar Hydari. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: Sir Akbar says that Hyderabad had no Hindu-Muslim... Muslim India scheme won't survive Jinnah. NIRODBARAN: A hint to do away with him? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: By sending him to the war? How old is he? PURANI: About sixty. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, then no chance. (Laughter) PURANI: But his health is rather weak and poor. SRI AUROBINDO: Diseased people often live long. NIRODBARAN: There's a letter from Y to Nishikanto. Y objects to ...

... with Sri Aurobindo 17 APRIL 1940 PURANI: The French army seems to have landed in Norway. SRI AUROBINDO: The French army also? PURANI: Yes. Narvik is said to be in Allied hands. SRI AUROBINDO: Nobody knows what is happening there. Have the officials said that? PURANI: No, not the officials. They say that the situation is quite clear now. SRI... master. PURANI: Then H spoke of consciousness in the heart and the force, the tranquillity, he gained here. SRI AUROBINDO: Why does he object to the monkey-gland operation? PURANI: He objects to the Mother seeing rich men and refusing poor men. SRI AUROBINDO: But the Mother has refused to see rich men also. That is why she asked him not to think or reason by the mind. PURANI: Why doesn't... now he finds that right is on their side. He had suspected perhaps that God was not on his side. (Laughter) PURANI: The Allies have laid extensive mine-fields. Hitler has not much chance of success in Norway. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know what made him take this step. PURANI: His inner voice, perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: His inner voice must have been wild then. NIRODBARAN: Is there any ...

... meeting of French people at Calcutta, passed a resolution that they would side with Britain. SRI AUROBINDO: Baron has taken a position. PURANI: Yes. SATYENDRA: Did he give any speech? SRI AUROBINDO: No, he was the President. They passed a resolution. PURANI: X is going to write a book on Charkha, showing the virtues of Charkha and warning that unless Europe adopts it there is no salvation for... SRI AUROBINDO: When the Charkha was in full swing, was there no destruction? PURANI: Not such as caused by the machine. SRI AUROBINDO: There was a tremendous and widespread destruction, of course not caused by modern weapons but by the crude ones proper to those times. People were massacred on a large scale. PURANI: Yes, Baghdad, for example, was destroyed completely. Timur and others caused... Indo-China. PURANI: It doesn't look as if Russia will wait till the end of the war. A clash has started on the Rumanian frontier. SRI AUROBINDO: It may be a rumour which will be denied later. But if true, it must be because Rumania has declared herself Nazi. NIRODBARAN: But if war starts between them Hitler will have to look on at present. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps. PURANI: In that case ...

... between De Gaullites and Pétainites. SRI AUROBINDO: Who won? PURANI: That is not said. SRI AUROBINDO: Where did you get all this? PURANI : The Indian Express . (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: You always keep the name out. PURANI: But it must be in the Hindu also. SRI AUROBINDO: Baron says that the Germans are trying to use the French navy and submarines. The sinking of a British ship by... 19 SEPTEMBER 1940 PURANI: It seems the Pétain Government is resisting the German demands and there is a possibility of Pétain resigning. Weygand is also dissatisfied with the ways of the Government. He intends to fly to Morocco, set up an independent government and declare for De Gaulle. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! PURANI: And there have been clashes in Morocco between... desert to cross. SATYENDRA: What are deserts nowadays to tanks and cars? SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. PURANI: Hitler seems to be putting pressure on Sumer, trying to displace the French. SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't require pressure. He has always been pro-Axis. He is a phalangist. PURANI: The British have kept Spain neutral by offering joint control of Gibraltar after the war as well as now ...

... of his tail which even Bhima could not raise! Here Purani brought in the topic of the Mahabharata, mention G. Ram's interpretation of that poem as symbolic, Bhima symbolising military genius and Draupadi... SRI AUROBINDO: Nonsense! It is something like Byron's joke on Dante's Divine Comedy, that Beatrice was a mathematical figure. PURANI: Critics say that in the future the epic will be more... demand of the present time for subjectivity and the epic too will have to answer it. PURANI: Some maintain that as there is no story in the Divine Comedy, it is not an epic. SRI AUROBINDO: It is certainly an epic. Paradise Lost has very little story in it and very few incidents. Yet it is an epic. PURANI: Some think that Keats' Hyperion would have been as great as Milton's poem if he had finished... was given were Tennyson and Wordsworth. Masefield's poems are Georgian, full of rhetoric. PURANI: Thompson asked me to read the poems of Eliot. He was in ecstasy over them. I read them. I couldn't find anything there. Neither in Ezra Pound. I asked Amal's opinion. SRI AUROBINDO: What did he say? PURANI: He is of the same view. He cut a fine joke on Ezra Pound: "His name is Pound but he is not ...

... yourself, to me and to the poor." (Laughter) What do you say, Purani? You too can go into trance or send Nirodbaran into trance. NIRODBARAN: He will find me a hard nut! PURANI: If he goes into trance, I fear he may not come out looking at the heap of dollars. NIRODBARAN: And Purani will perhaps come out looking it? PURANI: No objection to sharing the profits—but no share of the losses... with Sri Aurobindo 14 JANUARY 1939 Sri Aurobindo began the talk, suddenly breaking his silence. SRI AUROBINDO: There is something nice for you, Purani PURANI: For me? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. A letter has come from America. addressed to Sri Aurobindo Ashram. The writer thinks the Ashram is a person. He writes, "I have heard that you are a great Yoga... thought Ashram a person. SATYENDRA: The magazine in which he wrote is published by the Institute. Its founder has made good business in America. His work is a combination of business and Yoga. PURANI: Is it possible to predict sporting events? SATYENDRA: I know of an astrologer who made a lot of predictions about a cousin of mine, but most of them didn't come true. SRI AUROBINDO: I had a ...

... how far he has made inner progress is difficult to say. PURANI: A change in attitude doesn't indicate inner progress? SRI AUROBINDO: Not always, because it may be simply a mental change and it may be due to his having failed in everything after going from here, while the Ashram has grown ever since. That may have impressed him. PURANI: To realise and say that he has deviated from the path is... all correct. Nolini himself was one of the party. They never approached Dutt. But the boy's death by a bomb explosion is quite true. PURANI: Nolini said that Barin was carrying the bomb in his hand with the cap on. SRI AUROBINDO: Cap on? Just like Barin. PURANI: And when Prafulla threw the bomb, it exploded in the air before touching the ground. NIRODBARAN: Chakravarty thought that as soon... March 1940 Nirodbaran was twisting a letter in his hands. Sri Aurobindo, hearing the faint noise, looked back.. SRI AUROBINDO: What's that? NIRODBARAN: Z's letter. He wants guidance. PURANI: Any more of Dutt's stories? NIRODBARAN: No more. He has stopped. SRI AUROBINDO: His story of my meeting him at Baroda Station may be true, as I used to go very often to the Station. And about ...

... of fact he is already doing it. He has been given the sole power. PURANI: Perhaps the Viceroy is coming down now. The Times comment suggests that. Have you seen it? It says that Jinnah's demands are unreasonable. That may be the British Government's view too. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the Times is their official organ. PURANI: There is a reason too. It seems Russia and Japan are trying to come... been good for the State. PURANI: Sir Sikandar has frankly admitted that the question is after all about the loaves and fishes of office and is no religious at all. NIRODBARAN: The Muslims don't really trust the Hindus, it seems. Even Sir Akbar said he couldn't trust Gandhi. SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't trust Gandhi because of his way of life and philosophy. PURANI: It seems The Life Divine... Divine is finished now. SRI AUROBINDO: Not yet; only the first draft is done. PURANI : The Psychology of Social Development won't take much time. SRI AUROBINDO: No. NIRODBARAN: Is that the next book? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. (Then looking at Purani) The Ideal of Human Unity will have to be rewritten perhaps. Things have changed and Hitler is mainly responsible. ...

... creator. PURANI: Dr. Bhagawan Das suggested that legislators should be above the age of forty and completely disinterested like the Rishis. SRI AUROBINDO: A chamber of Rishis? That would not be very promising, for they would at once begin to quarrel—"Nana munir nana mat,"2 as they say. The Rishis in ancient times could guide the kings because they lived in various places. PURANI: His idea is... Charka? Such a tremendous waste of energy just for the sake of a few annas is most unreasonable. PURANI: He made that rule perhaps to enforce discipline. SRI AUROBINDO: Discipline is all right but once you begin to concentrate on a particular thing you tend to go on concentrating on it. PURANI: The Charka failed in agricultural provinces but seems to have succeeded in other places, especially... 1938 Talks with Sri Aurobindo 27 DECEMBER 1938 Sri Aurobindo himself opened the talk by addressing Purani: "I hear X is going about in his car with a guard by his side and two policemen on cycles front and back." The talk continued regarding Pondicherry politics, most of it being by us. Then Sri Aurobindo remarked: SRI AUROBINDO: When I see Pondicherry ...

... million. EVENING SRI AUROBINDO: So Bonvain has declared himself? And Pavitra has to take up mobilisation under the order of the Foreign Minister! PURANI: Who is the Foreign Minister? SRI AUROBINDO: That is what I would like to ask. PURANI: It can't be the Minister of the Pétain Government. SRI AUROBINDO: No, Bonvain has allied himself with the British. SATYENDRA: But he has not repudiated... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 28 JUNE 1940 PURANI: Russia's occupation of Bessarabia seems to be the result of an understanding with Hitler and the proper time was also fixed beforehand. SRI AUROBINDO: Probably. NIRODBARAN: But the question is: Will Russia stop here? SRI AUROBINDO: No. NIRODBARAN: In that case Hitler will have to look... later on. SRI AUROBINDO: He can't afford to quarrel with Russia at present when he is fighting England, so Russia may try to acquire Africa also, unless, of course, Italy jumps in in a rage. PURANI: Yes, then Hitler will be dragged in. Russia will come too near Italy then. NIRODBARAN: Isn't Russia a danger to Turkey? SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. NIRODBARAN: Some Englishman wrote in The ...

... but also a war for the preservation of civilisation, etc. SRI AUROBINDO(looking at Purani): So? PURANI: It will be published in all the papers. Gandhi will see it. NIRODBARAN: He may find some light in his groping. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: It is not in his line. They call me a savant. PURANI: Yes. NIRODBARAN: No other savant has contributed anything yet. SATYENDRA: The letter... declare war now. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? SATYENDRA: The marriage of some prince of theirs is over. (Laughter) PURANI: Oh, the brother of the Hyderabad princess, the legal heir to the Sultan. He would have become the next Sultan if he had been in Turkey. SRI AUROBINDO: No. PURANI: I see; he would have been killed! SRI AUROBINDO: This Egyptian ministry can't raise popular enthusiasm. Nahash... Nahash Pasha could have. EVENING SRI AUROBINDO: So New Caledonia has revolted against the Pétain Government? PURANI: Yes. SATYENDRA: Where is New Caledonia? SRI AUROBINDO: It is a small island near Australia. PURANI: There are some volunteers here who want to join De Gaulle. SRI AUROBINDO: Have they declared themselves? They have to do that first. But do they know that they are to ...

... is like Einstein's theory; only five or six people understand it. PURANI: And they also differ among themselves. EVENING PURANI: Westerners say that ancient Indian art is religious and spiritual. SRI AUROBINDO: That is because only these types still exist. There was also secular art which has been destroyed. PURANI: And Indian art is not so much aesthetic as expressing some religious... the world. PURANI (laughing): Yes, he has already said he does not understand why the war should go on. SRI AUROBINDO: He would say, "Now that I have won, why should it?" NIRODBARAN: The newspaper says there is a great concentration of troops along the French Channel coast to attack England. SRI AUROBINDO: Troops? Not ships? A concentration of ships is required. PURANI: Perhaps they... rhythm, form, etc., but have no substance. Have you found. wonderful rhythm? PURANI: None. Isn't that poem "O Apollo.. .tinwreath" by him? Nolini said tin-wreath is wonderful! (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is in Greek tina; most idiotic it is. And he says it is a great pun; not a pun but most idiotic. PURANI: I told you Amal's joke that Pound is not worth the penny! (Laughter) SRI ...

... 10 AUGUST 1940 PURANI: It seems that when Dilip was in Calcutta, he took Bose to Baron and introduced him. That is how they know each other. SRI AUROBINDO: Dilip has no sense of these things at all. He thinks, "You are a good man, he is a good man, both should meet each other." (Laughter) PURANI: Hitler's Blitzkrieg has got a rude shock. SRI AUROBINDO:... achieve equality in numbers. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Hitler is superior on land only. PURANI: Somebody from Punjab, who has come for Darshan had a severe haemorrhage from the nose. I had to call Dr. André; he gave an injection and the bleeding stopped. SRI AUROBINDO: These people ought to pay André. PURANI: Yes, this man will pay. It seems he has disposed of all his property and has come to stay... resist. SRI AUROBINDO: That means the end of Indo-China. PURANI: Yes. SRI AUROBINDO: The Pétain Government must have over-ridden Admiral Decoux's order to fight. Why do these French admirals brandish their swords and then put them back? If they resist now, there may be some chance. Otherwise it is the end of Indo-China. PURANI: Yes. Besides, the Chinese have announced that they will resist ...

... 6 AUGUST 1940 PURANI: The Viceroy has issued an ordinance banning all volunteer organisations—political or communal. Only for social service can an organisation be retained, sanctioned by the provincial Government. SRI AUROBINDO: I see. That would give an occasion for starting civil disobedience. PURANI: Yes. One good thing is that the Khaksars will go—all... disobedience in his own way. Nobody knows what that way is. PURANI: The Viceroy says that in any such private organisation one man gets more power than he is legally entitled to, which is not desirable. The Government has enough capacity to deal with any trouble. SRI AUROBINDO: Has it? The Government hasn't shown it recently. PURANI: People can join the Civil Guard, the Viceroy says. SATYENDRA:... etc. PURANI: Have you read the article in the Sunday Hindu the collapse of France? It says that Reynaud's speech helped to the morale of the army. SRI AUROBINDO: How? Churchill also said that if England fell they would go to the Empire and fight from there. That didn't break their morale. SATYENDRA: And his appeal to America was to avert the armistice move in the cabinet. PURANI: He says ...

... same. Nous seems to be Intelligence. PURANI: I do not know if Divine Mind would be the same as Supermind. SRI AUROBINDO: When they consider Shankara the greatest of realists and my philosophy the same as his... PURANI: What can you say about others? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: Is it the supramental urge for unification? (Laughter) PURANI: Italy has ordered her ships to neutral ports... are equal. PURANI: As an authority on Buddhism, Mrs. Rhys Davies seems to be the best person. SRI AUROBINDO: No, she is not very reliable. The Mahayana conception of Nirvana seems to be something like Laotse's Tao. Tao, according to him, is a condition of nothingness that is beyond all present construction, and that is the nothingness which contains everything. (Addressing Purani) Do you know... attacking there now because of his concentration in the north. PURANI: Perhaps he is waiting for Italy to join and then make a combined attack there. SRI AUROBINDO: Probably. NIRODBARAN: It is very strange that France did not build any Maginot Line on the Belgian frontier. SRI AUROBINDO: There were only scattered fortifications. PURANI: Even during these eight months they did not do anything ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 9 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: It seems America's war with Japan is inevitable. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? PURANI: As a consequence of the opening of the Burma Road by the British. SRI AUROBINDO: Not likely. PURANI; And Prussia also will have two ports—the Balkans and Japan. SATYENDRA: Japan won't go to war. SRI ... show you." (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: He may have something up his sleeve. He doesn't give out empty threats. SRI AUROBINDO: Not usually. (Addressing Purani with a little smile) Baron went to see Schomberg on some business. PURANI: I see. SRI AUROBINDO: He said that he had come to know it was on Schomberg's demand that he had been called from Chandernagore, Schomberg with great surprise... lies!" (All of us burst into laughter.) Baron thought one of them must be lying. He forgot the possibility that both may have been lying. PURANI: Yes. The Governor may himself have called him back in order to please his Vichy Government. EVENING PURANI: Veerabhadra has gone, it seems. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he was asked to give up his public activity, if he wanted to stay here. He says he can't ...

... and has perhaps unearthed an inscription? PURANI: Mysore is a highly developed industrial State. SRI AUROBINDO: Are there any private industries? PURANI: Yes, some are State-aided and some are run by the State itself. SRI AUROBINDO: It is the private industries that make for the prosperity of the State. The State can only show the way. PURANI (after a while): Belisha is crying himself... made. But if the Allies don't intervene, then after taking Finland, Russia will wait for an advantageous moment to strike at the Allies. PURANI: Besides, one does not know what Italy will do. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Italy's position is still uncertain. PURANI: It may decide to join Russia and Germany. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. But if Italy joins them, the stalemate in the Siegfried Line will come... had been suffering from high blood-pressure for a long time. There seems no chance now of our getting the goat we had been promised. Krishnalal will be disappointed. Who will succeed the Yuvaraja? PURANI: His son. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, then the son may fulfil his father's promise. CHAMPAKLAL: They will send the goat all right since they have made the promise. SRI AUROBINDO: There seems to be ...

... (Laughter) PURANI: If they were trained to handle machine-guns and tanks, that would be something. Nirodbaran (smiling): They will be given only batons! SRI AUROBINDO: Batons? NIRODBARAN: Yes. PURANI: Gandhi will object even to that. It is against non-violence. SATYENDRA: Why? He doesn't object to the nation using violence, if it wants to. His ideal is only for himself. PURANI: Yes,... is to accumulate all their strength at one point and then make a drive. The French don't seem to be able to prevent the thrust. PURANI: No, though their air force is attacking the rear. SRI AUROBINDO: That cannot prevent the advance, it can or hamper it. PURANI: The French also could gather their mass against the Germans. SRI AUROBINDO: That is what they should do. I don't know why they... the nation can have its army for defence. SRI AUROBINDO: But he changed his principle with regard to monkeys. PURANI: Monkeys? SRI AUROBINDO: Monkeys in his Ashram! PURANI: Oh, yes. You mean he may change with regard to Hitler-monkeys also? (Laughter) He is quite capable of that. SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler was born to prove the inapplicability of Ahimsa. NIRODBARAN: The small neutrals ...

... back to change their nature. SRI AUROBINDO: Why should they come back? PURANI: I believe what is meant is that Buddha, Shankara and others who went into Laya and accepted escape from Nature have not really got liberation. SRI AUROBINDO: They got the liberation of the spirit and that is what they wanted. PURANI: The question may be put like this: Could their escape be considered to be against... because he was a great organiser and he stabilised the French Revolution. He organised France and, through France, the whole of Europe. His immense powers and abilities—are these things not great? PURANI: I suppose men admire them because they find in them the realisation of their own potential greatness, SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. But Huxley speaks of Caesar and Napoleon as if they were the first... foolish as to allow that. Carlyle puts the situation more realistically when he says that the condition was, "I kill you or you kill me. So it is better that I kill you than get killed by you." PURANI: Huxley says war is always avoidable. SRI AUROBINDO: When intellectuals talk of these things, they get into a muddle. How is war avoidable? How can you prevent war so long as the other fellow wants ...

... attention. SRI AUROBINDO: He was very painstaking. Most of the professors don't work so hard. I saw his books interleaved and marked and full of notes. (Then looking at Purani) I was not so conscientious as a professor. PURANI: People who heard you—even those who politically differed from you—speak very highly of your lectures. SRI AUROBINDO: I never used to look at the notes and sometimes my... state and from the physical goes into the vital or dynamic and acts vitally. In the evening the talk began with a reading of S's letter describing vividly his sense of persecution by people. PURANI: These people get possessed by the idea of persecution. DR. BECHARLAL: Is it a possession? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, a possession of the nervous system and the vital mind, though it is not like insanity... great freedom of speech in England. DR. BECHARLAL: Vivekananda said that it is difficult to make friends with Englishmen but once it is done it lasts a lifetime. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite true. PURANI: The Japanese, Jean Herbert says, are also like that. Generally they are only polite and formal, but once you can make a friendship they are very good friends. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they are very ...

... plenipotentiaries. NIRODBARAN: So all the previous news was rumour? SRI AUROBINDO: It comes to that. PURANI: It seems the meeting is being held in the same old cabin as at the end of World War I. The terms are about thirty typed pages. SRI AUROBINDO: Then there can't be any discussion? PURANI: Not likely. If in the meantime the Italian navy could be destroyed it would be a great gain. SRI... 1940 SRI AUROBINDO: The French Government is still at Bordeaux and negotiations have only started now! The Pondicherry Government news was that the French Governor had left for Casablanca. PURANI: The Germans speak of the heroic resistance of the French Army and say that their terms will not be unjust or dishonourable. SRI AUROBINDO: No, they say they won't be shameful but severe. SATYENDRA:... AUROBINDO: How can a laissez-faire policy build up a reputation as a politician? SATYENDRA: Except for the war, he would have gone down in history as a big politician. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. PURANI: A certain military officer has written that France had no idea about Germany's strength, the tremendous number of her tanks, mechanised units, etc. SRI AUROBINDO: The French had some idea but not ...

... SATYENDRA: The British move is quite logical in pursuance of their blockade. They said all French ports are under blockade. PURANI: The French could have simply said they had been over-powered and so surrendered to the British fleet. NIRODBARAN: Fleet means what? PURANI: Some naval units. SRI AUROBINDO: Oran is a big port in North Africa. NIRODBARAN: Now the colonies may buck up. SATYENDRA:... the French fight for Germany? There won't be any later as they are already in German hands. PURANI: Moreover, after demilitarisation it has to be seen how much vim is left in them. SRI AUROBINDO: Why is this fleet trying to go to France to be demobilised instead of having it done by England? PURANI: Perhaps they are Fascist. SATYENDRA: No reply to Gandhi's offer? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO:... AUROBINDO: But the British are now demobilising the French fleet. The French can lay down their arms and go home. PURANI: Grazziani is being sent to Libya. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. It was he who established peace in Libya by killing all the people who resisted. Do you know about the will? PURANI: What will? SRI AUROBINDO: The will that has been found in Balbao's plane. People are asking how the will ...

... bacause the One is real. If that is correct, then the individual must be real. PURANI: Yes, otherwise there is no individuality. Each one would be like everyone else. SRI AUROBINDO: If he says the individual is a passive automaton, one may ask, "What are you doing all the time?" or "There is no you, is there?" PURANI: Another point he wants to know: you have spoken of two Mayas, the higher and... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 14 SEPTEMBER 1940 PURANI: Anilbaran says you have written in The Mother that one has to be an instrument of the Divine. SRI AUROBINDO: But that is about work only. An individual is not only an instrument. He is a lover (Bhakta) and knower (Jnani) as well. If I have written about the instrument, I have also written... passivity is an intermediate stage, that is another matter. Otherwise, by simple passivity you expose yourself to various forces, as Lele did, thinking that everything is being done by the Divine. PURANI: Besides, one can't lift one passage out of its context and apply it in a general way. SRI AUROBINDO: I have very clearly said that the individuals not an automaton. His consent is required. He ...

... (Laughter) PURANI: It seems Mahadev Desai has asked for a copy of The life Divine . NIRODBARAN: For Gandhi? PURANI: No, for himself. He doesn't think that in the strict sense Gandhi has any spiritual experience or knowledge. Desai has his own Guru. SRI AUROBINDO: One won't get anything spiritual unless one recognises that one's ideas are only ideas. EVENING PURANI: Nolini had a strange... AUROBINDO: He used too many compounds, making it seem like Sanskrit. (To Purani) What is the name of that Indian whom Raman mentions in his address? SATYENDRA: It is Dr. Krishna perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps. I don't remember the name. Raman mentions him as the first to experiment with the Cavendish cyclotron. PURANI: Yes, it is he. He is a doctor of science of Madras University and was sent... strange experience. SRI AUROBINDO: What was it? PURANI: Dilip brought a retired Bengali judge to introduce him to Nolini. The judge is a member of the Gita Prachar Party. The man looked at Nolini for an instant and then suddenly embraced and kissed him; then he said, "I have read your writings and I like them very much." Nolini was so surprised. SRI AUROBINDO: Nolini didn't return the kiss ...

... consequences; Vishnu has to come afterwards to save the situation. SATYENDRA: Krishna is hard to please, they say. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: Talking of Krishna reminds me of X. They say he has turned a Buddhist now. SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! PURANI: He had such a fervour and devotion for Krishna. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't understand why he should have become a Buddhist. Living with one's... knee, that all disease or illness is an inflammation. After he had gone, Sri Aurobindo asked, "In what sense is all illness an inflammation?" Nirodbaran explained as well as he could. After this, Purani continued yesterday's topic: Aldous Huxley's ideas. He quoted from his book Ends and Means . Huxley suggests two ways of change. One is to change existing institutions of education, industry, etc... central organisation, so as to do away with large-scale productions which are the root of all trouble. The other way is to change the individual and make him, as he puts it, a non-attached ideal man. Purani also mentioned a French author who advocated small industrial institutions. SRI AUROBINDO: That was my idea too, which I proposed to Motilal namely, a spiritual commune. I did not call it a commune ...

... AUROBINDO: God is angry with Bose because he is a Socialist? PURANI: In Dacca also there was a clash between the student federation and the Bose party students, in which one student of the federation died. SRI AUROBINDO: What did the other party do? Did they not fight? PURANI: Yes, they did. SRI AUROBINDO: That's better. PURANI: Here in Pondicherry schoolboys were asked to write an essay... on sea-power. Without sea-power you can't transport supplies, mechanised troops, etc. PURANI: They counted on the aeroplanes. SRI AUROBINDO: Hitherto aeroplane attacks have not been a success except in Poland and Finland. Aeroplanes are only a powerful aid. You can't conquer a country with them. PURANI: No, except in places like Abyssinia, perhaps. There too the Italians were hard put. ... being sunk and many cruisers. By cruisers are meant battle cruisers perhaps; they have then some light cruisers. So half their cruisers are also destroyed and many merchant ships—a heavy loss. PURANI: It is reported that the Allies have broken through the line and penetrated into the Baltic. SRI AUROBINDO .If they enter the Baltic, then the Germans are done for. NIRODBARAN: So it seems true ...

... achieve something. PURANI: He is afraid to come here lest he shouldn't be able to go back. SRI AUROBINDO: He's afraid like Nandalal Bose? PURANI: Yes. He says he has a family and if he takes up poetry here and doesn't go back— (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: He is one of the best among Indians who are writing in English. There is another from your part of the country. PURANI: Jehangir Vakil? ... 1940 Talks with Sri Aurobindo 25 JANUARY 1940 PURANI: Mahadev Desai has advised poor people to wear paper if cloth runs short. NIRODBARAN: Why wear anything at all? PURANI: He has got this idea from Gandhi. Once Gandhi put a piece of paper in between the two folds of his loin cloth. People say that paper will be short now. SRI AUROBINDO: Doesn't... life's problems become very much simplified, and for food one can eat grass like that English barrister. SRI AUROBINDO: Thus two problems of life are solved. But what about the third: shelter? PURANI: People can sleep under the stars. SRI AUROBINDO: Not possible during the monsoon. Even Sannyasis have to seek caves. SATYENDRA: If one could really simplify life, things would be so much better ...

... AUROBINDO: Training in mutual borrowing? (Laughter) PURANI: In Bombay also he got some money from the public for such a national school. When they came to know him they feared all the money— SRI AUROBINDO: Would be nationalised? (Laughter) EVENING Purani was discussing art with Sri Aurobindo, apropos of Laurence Binyon's book. PURANI: Binyon has not adequately dealt with Indian art here... seven out of nine rupees. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, then his character must have changed. PURANI: Is Satyendrastill with him? NIRODBARAN: No. SRI AUROBINDO: She refuses to be a party to his polygamous tendency and says that so long as this dancing girl is with him, she will have nothing to do with him. PURANI: He is trying to start a school there for training young people and wants to give it the... he done that in a separate book? PURANI: Yes, with Mogul art. Coomaraswamy says that images were found in India even in the pre-Buddhistic period, before the Greek influence. SRI AUROBINDO: What proof is there? It may be that they have shaken off the Greek influence and taken up a new line. Greek art had Egyptian influence, so why not Indian art? PURANI: Gandhara art may be Greek. SRI ...

... about the Mother? PURANI: The poems can very well be taken as addressed to the Divine Mother. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Besides, all the poems are not like that— "Garur Gadi", for instance. He has variety too. Of course they are spiritual and mystic. EVENING SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Do you know anything about why Baron is being recalled from Chandernagore? PURANI: No, I only heard that... talking of his health and Suren of his illness? PURANI: The British don't seem to want to defend Somaliland. They have no forces there, only some camel corps. NIRODBARAN: What chances has the camel corps against mechanised units? SRI AUROBINDO: The camel corps also is mechanised, they say, or perhaps they mean the camels are mechanical? PURANI: If they don't think Somaliland is important, what... about Egypt? Italians have one-and-a-half lakh troops in Libya, while the British have only a few. NIRODBARAN: Egypt has no forces? SRI AUROBINDO: It has a trained army. But it is neutral. PURANI: Will it remain neutral even when it is attacked? SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): In this world of Leopold, I don't know what it will do. NIRODBARAN: The American ambassador has said that Leopold ...

... AUROBINDO ( to Purani): Any more news about French India joining De Gaulle? PURANI: It seems the Governor has sent the resolution to the Viceroy. SRI AUROBINDO: I understand that the French officials here have made one condition with the Indian Government that if war breaks out in Indo-China they may be allowed to send troops there, and the Indian Government has consented. PURANI: But how is... AUROBINDO: Yes. So they may get shot by them. And it will be bad for us. PURANI: Scientists say that the light of a star passing close to the sun is deflected towards the sun; the light curves in this way because of the curvature of space. SRI AUROBINDO: How does space get a curvature and manage to do all these stunts? PURANI: Mathematically a curved space has been demonstrated. SRI AUROBINDO:... PURANI: But one has no means to verify these things. And the difficulty is that if anybody questions them, these scientists at once reply that you must first know mathematics. All these people get some idea first and then try to fit the idea into their work. SRI AUROBINDO: What Arjava said seems to be true, that according to the way you approach Nature, Nature will answer you. PURANI: And ...

... it; I have something more worthwhile. (Laughter) PURANI: Some define the taste by colour. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the modern craze! PURANI: They will say the sweetness of an orange is yellow. SRI AUROBINDO: Pomegranate pink and shades of pink as pink I, pink II. DR. MANILAL: But one can get the proof and knowledge by eating. PURANI: That is experience. DR. MANILAL: It is knowledge... SRI AUROBINDO: It would establish a precedent. ( Laughter ) DR. MANILAL: But you can know the right diagnosis and suitable treatment in a case. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a medical question. PURANI: Sri Aurobindo and the Mother can as well cure a case straight away instead of bothering about all that. EVENING DR. MANILAL: If Joan of Arc was a saint, how could she be burnt alive, Sir? ... some years ago! And what did you have in mind? Many saints have been killed, burnt, riddled with arrows. NIRODBARAN: Christ was crucified. DR. MANILAL: Some say it is not true. (Laughter) PURANI: How? It is written in the books! (laughter) DR. MANILAL: They hold a procession now in memory of Joan of Arc. SRI AUROBINDO: Now? DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir, when I was in Paris ten years ago ...

... invasion can't come off on the l0th. PURANI: He still has three days' time. Otherwise it will break his sequence. He is preparing. SRI AUROBINDO: I wish it had been fixed to come after the 15th; I don't want the Darshan to be disturbed. NIRODBARAN: Hiren Dutt finds The Life Divine obscure and loose. SRI AUROBINDO: Obscure to himself? PURANI: I haven't much regard for his opinion and... NIRODBARAN: Prashanta Mahalnavis seems to have said The Life Divine is Ganja? SRI AUROBINDO: He is a Brahmo, isn't he? NIRODBARAN: Yes. PURANI: He means he found it as intoxicating as Ganja? NIRODBARAN: Oh no, Brahmos don't touch Ganja. PURANI: He was the same man who came here with Tagore and was not allowed to accompany Tagore during his interview with you. He was very angry. I remember... case they allow Japan to use any ports. PURANI: It seems Italy has launched an attack against British Somaliland and Egypt. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but not against Egypt. It is evident that the British have a very insufficient force there. I don't understand why Australian soldiers are being sent to England. They ought to have been out there. Then Purani brought in the talk about Nandalal Bose's ...

... JANUARY 1940 PURANI: Vakil has written a letter. SRI AUROBINDO: What does he say? PURANI: He was for a long time suffering from boils, he says. After homeopathy had failed, he went to a surgeon who cured him. Other troubles too were there. SRI AUROBINDO: I hope it is not the result of meddling with my horoscope, like Manilal who meddled with my knee. (Laughter) PURANI: I read in Kalyan... loose from the lower palate? PURANI: They do that in Khechari Mudra. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he simply refused. They said, "You Bengali coward!" He replied, "Bengali or no Bengali, I am not doing it." (Laughter) PURANI: But this Mudra is very dangerous unless one's vital being is pure. SRI AUROBINDO: I am afraid Barin's wasn't quite pure! (Laughter) PURANI: (After some time) : To go back... Kalyan that somebody has conquered death. SRI AUROBINDO: Conquered death? How? PURANI: He knew exactly when he was going to die and he died at the very date and hour. How is that a conquest of death, I wonder. SRI AUROBINDO: That is knowing the date of death, not conquest. PURANI: They write that he was, according to his own calculation, to die on a certain day but it was found that that day ...

... 8 JANUARY 1940 PURANI: Have you read C.V. Raman's address? SRI AUROBINDO: I believe so. PURANI: He says they have discovered two new elements—I don't know how. SRI AUROBINDO: Not discovered, but created, by changing the position of the particles in the atom and making new combinations. But what are they going to do with them? PURANI: The cost of making anything will be... cast doubt on it? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: But what is energy? PURANI: Modern scientists have stopped asking that question. They only answer how, not why or what. But their own discoveries will make the question more pointed. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so, because the problem is why a different combination of particles within the atom should make a new element. PURANI: Energy was once said... said to be lines of force. SRI AUROBINDO: That means force in movement and when force is in motion we come to know energy. But what is force? PURANI: They don't answer that question, either. SRI AUROBINDO: Unless you accept a Being who applies the force and becomes matter, there can be no real explanation. But when this answer is given, people say, "What's this nonsense about Somebody behind ...

... Gujarati then. DR. MANILAL: Translations are even more difficult—if Purani, who is a translator, doesn't mind my saying so. PURANI: No. I don't mind. I know. DR. MANILAL: I understood Purani's original writings better than his translations. SRI AUROBINDO: Have you read Kant? (Laughter) DR. MANILAL: No, Sir! PURANI: After Kant you would realise how easy The Life Divine is. NIRODBARAN:... : Ask the Grace of God to aid you. (Laughter) PURANI: The language is not the difficulty, and it can't be made any easier. It is the thought that is difficult to follow. Some people find it very easy. SRI AUROBINDO: Sisir Mitra is one. He found the book very clear and remarked that after reading it there could be no questions left. PURANI: Quite so. One may not accept the conclusions but... NIRODBARAN: Don't worry, Dr. Manilal, I am in the same boat as you. PURANI: Many doctors will be in it. . CHAMPAKLAL: But Rajangam finds The Life Divine easy. He says that one shouldn't read anything else except this book. He is in ecstasies over it. PURANI: I also find it very clear. SRI AUROBINDO: One should have a little knowledge of philosophy. What I have tried to give in the book is ...

... Vijnana. SATYENDRA (addressing Purani) : New copies of The Life Divine have come. They seem a little thin. Perhaps thinner paper has been used. NIRODBARAN: Same price? PURANI: You thought the price would also be thin? (Laughter) Nolini and I were wondering if they would send us copies. SATYENDRA: Nolini and Purani get them free. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? PURANI: For review. SRI AUROBINDO:... defence lines. PURANI: Finland is now fortifying the Aaland Islands. She hasn't up to now because of objections. SRI AUROBINDO: Only Russia had objected. The League had given permission. SATYENDRA: Sweden seems willing to help Finland. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps they are already helping with arms EVENING There was very little talk. Nobody appeared to be in the mood. PURANI: Have you seen... more insolent he becomes. Is it true that the Momins, the sect to which jinnah belongs, constitute half the number of Muslims in India? That is what is being said. PURANI: I don't know exactly. When Sri Aurobindo was lying down, Purani showed him some photos of Meher Baba's "mad disciples". Sri Aurobindo commented, "They don't look like liberated souls!" (Laughter) ...

... attack of some force as he had just returned from visiting various places? SRI AUROBINDO: What places? PURANI: Kumbhakonam, Trichinopoly, etc SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, then it is quite possible. Sacred places are the places for such forces, also the places of priests and Pandas. PURANI ( after some time ): The British have landed troops at different points, leaving the occupied areas. SRI ... manoeuvre? They seem to intend to occupy Bergen and Trondjheim because they are concentrating their attacks on them. PURANI: The Indian Express says that one third of the German navy is gone. SRI AUROBINDO: May be true. The radio says half, but it may be one third. PURANI: Have you read the report of the officers in the Khaksar shooting enquiry? They have made some amazing disclosures—that... old. It is like X trying to learn Greek at eighty. These things take too long and before he has taken a few steps he may be off. Then Purani gave Sri Aurobindo a typed review of The Life Divine by N.C. Brahma Sri Aurobindo read it and kept silent. PURANI: He says that what you have said is what Shankara has said. (Laughter) It is all Adwaita philosophy. SRI AUROBINDO: Adwaita, yes, but ...

... be "founded in" and not "on". PURANI: It makes a big difference: "in" or "on". SRI AUROBINDO: A big difference and quite a different meaning. PURANI: I came to know afterwards that they had already changed it. SATYENDRA: Perhaps some Calcutta persons have pointed it out thinking it unusual. SRI AUROBINDO: What idiots some people can become. PURANI: They are familiar only with "founded... 27 JUNE 1940 PURANI: If Russia demands Bessarabia it might be through an understanding with Hitler. SRI AUROBINDO: If Rumania accedes then Russia will next enter Bucharest. Hitler has demanded all the German refugees from the French Government which means that he will harass them now. PURANI: Our people in Calcutta have asked whether, in the proof... fight. PURANI: Will the Pétain Government send warships then to make them obey? SRI AUROBINDO: They may do anything. When they have recalled the Governors, it means that the colonies haven't obeyed. What about Syria? The Pétain Government hasn't recalled its Governor. Perhaps they know that he will send them to the devil. SATYENDRA: Will Indo-China be able to resist Japan? PURANI: At least ...

... PURANI: Hitler will have to pay a heavy toll for an invasion. SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't care about that. What he is afraid of is failure. SATYENDRA: It seems there are eight hundred thousand Italian's in Egypt. SRI AUROBINDO: Eight hundred thousand? SATYENDRA: So the Indian Express says. PURANI: It must be eighty thousand or so. SRI AUROBINDO: Eight thousand! PURANI: The... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 15 SEPTEMBER 1940 SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): Have you mentioned yesterday's points to Anilbaran? What does he say? PURANI: I have told him a few of them as there was not enough time. He is coming round and was especially impressed by the example of the machine. SATYENDRA: All these questions don't arise... submarine blockade will break down the English. (Laughing) They are preparing their people in case the idea of invasion is given up. PURANI: Yes, it must be that. SRI AUROBINDO: In the meantime the R.A.F. is battering the French coast and Germany too. PURANI: I don't know how far an invasion will be successful. SRI AUROBINDO: Now it will be difficult. Hitler had his chance after the fall ...

... SRI AUROBINDO: To frame him? PURANI: So Gandhi departed, but as a personal friend. SRI AUROBINDO: And he saw Jonah before going, didn't he? ( Purani apparently didn't know what "Jonah" referred to .) Jonah is the turtle that was saved by the Viceroy from the mouth of a fish and put into a pond. Jonah is a Biblical name. You don't know the story of Jonah? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: Jonah was... 7 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: Gandhi has made a long statement about his interview, with the Viceroy. He says that the Viceroy was very patient, very courteous but unbending. Gandhi discussed all the problems with him and he listened to everything patiently as no Viceroy had done before. But he didn't go into any of the arguments. SRI AUROBINDO: Only listened? PURANI: He says there was a cold... treating conquered people like slaves and not making use of other opportunity. PURANI: In these air raids the British have shown themselves more than equal to the Nazis. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The Nazis have more enthusiasm and dash. But the British individual is more awake and has more initiative and brain-power. PURANI: Some military correspondent writes that Britain could start an offensive and ...

... 6 OCTOBER 1940 PURANI: Sarkar says that art was at first religious everywhere; only India has remained where she was, while Europe has gone forward. SRI AUROBINDO: That is all right, but where? PURANI: Going round! SRI AUROBINDO: And backward. They have gone farther back than we have ever done. PURANI: What seems to me the point is not whether art is ... scientific. PURANI: I remember Arjava used to see Krishnalal's pictures like that—the scheme, line, composition—the geometry of art, so to say. Poor Krishnalal couldn't make head or tail of his criticism. SRI AUROBINDO: He practised without knowing! NIRODBARAN: Moore's article on Gandhi is very strong. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): Have you read it? NIRODBARAN: Yes. PURANI: Yes, it is very... good—on the contrary it has done much harm, he says. PURANI: What non-cooperation has done is to show people in a combined state, united in action for a common purpose and thus it has given solidarity and a sense of unity. SATYENDRA: It has helped to awaken the mass-consciousness tremendously. SRI AUROBINDO: That, of course. PURANI: Non-violence has been brought in by Gandhi as a principle ...

... 1940-contd Talks with Sri Aurobindo 20 MARCH 1940 PURANI: In Sweden public opinion seems to be in favour of Germany. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: That is why no help was given to Finland. SRI AUROBINDO: Norway and Sweden have become pacific. Of course the Norwegians are not said to be particularly good fighters, though once the Norwegian Vikings... and in the earliest periods they were a great power; they ravaged the whole of Northern Europe. EVENING PURANI: The French Cabinet has resigned. But it seems Daladier will again be asked to form the Ministry. SRI AUROBINDO: They passed a vote of confidence the other day. PURANI: But this may have happened yesterday. Some three hundred members remained neutral. They seem to be dissatisfied... to the Communists—only in a different Way. PURANI: Some people may be saying that Daladier is led too much by Chamberlain. SRI AUROBINDO: If a quarrel starts between England and France, the war is done! SATYENDRA: Every day they are spending six million pounds. SRI AUROBINDO: That can't be helped. It was the same during the last war. PURANI: The Allies did not want to prosecute a vigorous ...